Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    Works great. We've been using gas for almost ten years now. They
    don't replace the cylinders but come every other month and refill
    it. One big advantage is that when the power goes out you can still
    cook and if need be use the oven for heat. 
    
    As far as cost I don't remember that far back. I think that there
    was just an installation charge. You'll have to check with the gas
    company that you go with.
    
    ps. We also have a gas dryer
    

    One thing I forgot to mention was when you buy your stove make sure
    it's set up for propane and not city gas. I believe the jets are
    different.
    
    

    We considered propane.  Our previous house was gas; our current
    is all electric.  Time defeated our intent.
    
    Contact a number of local (and not so local large) companies servicing
    residential propane accounts - see Yellow Pages.  They can quote
    approximate usage rates, costs, and appliance conversion costs;
    ie our natural gas dryer can be converted by the propane company.
    The overall costs seemed reasonable.  Some companies will recharge
    your (rented) bottles, some will simply replace them.
    
    If you wish to observe its use with a stove, catch, on your local
    PBS TV station, "The Frugal Gourmet".  He has been known to wax
    poetic about his propane fired cook stove...

    Dwight

     We have twice done what you are contemplating. It is no problem.
    The big local company in the suburban Boston area is Suburban Propane.
    They will do the entire installation for you, including changing
    over any appliances you may have (if needed). The gas bottle is
    sized depending upon what types of things you have running gas.
    Once every month or two they come by and refill the tank(s) just
    like an oil company would for your oil tank.
     As far as any difference is concerned, I grew up with Natural (city)
    gas but have used propane for the last 7 years. I haven't noticed
    any difference at all, it just works like gas.
    
    					Kenny

    	I have had both types of installations. IN my previous house
    I had two large propane tanks that were used for heat and cooking.
    These tank were filled about once a month. In this house I have
    two smaller tanks ( 100 lbs. each). The company comes out and changes
    the tank when we call and say its low. This setup is not as good.
    Most of the time I don't have to look at the gauge to tell its time
    to change tanks. The smell from the pilot light on the stove becomes
    VERY strong. That sort of pollution is something to consider if
    your house is very tightly insullated.
    	As far as cost, we use the gas for hot water and cooking and
    change tanks every four to six weeks. Currently it costs $30.50
    for a tank.
    			jak
    

    I think that my parents were paying something between maybe $30
    and possibly $50 a month for bottled gas to feed a stove and a
    clothes drier.  The price will vary somewhat; it's dependent on
    location and company.
    
    If you don't consider the price exorbitant, DO IT.  I grew up with
    a gas stove, and I learned to cook -- matter of fact, I seem to
    do at least as well as my fianc�e (she says it's a feature ;-).
    
    Right now, I am using a misbegotten tool of Satan, and not a week
    goes by without it provoking me to foul language.  I've been toying
    with this idea myself -- does anybody have info about piped gas
    and bottled gas in the Leominster area?
    
    Dick
    

I work for a fuel oil company that deals in bottle gas. A general
rule is that if you have a stove and hot water heater, you will
use one 100 lb cylinder a month, our cost $30.50. Just a hot water
heater one cylinder approximately every two months, cost a little more
(memorey not clear on that price). Just a stove depends, some people
every three - four months, some as much as five or six. That all depends
on oven use, number op people in house, use of appliances such as
coffee makers and electric frying pans and of course microwave ovens.
Cost 40.50 per tank. We replace the tanks. 
  The installations have two types of gauges, one right on the regulator,
and one on a long tube that can be put outside of a window. The smell
you get from the pilots is from a little air being injected into the gas line
when the regulator switches tanks (in a two tank installation, you only
use gas out of one tank at a time). I don't know why but some people get
little if any smell and some people get enough to make you sick. A solution
is when you get the smell, go turn the handle on the regulator AND TELL THE
GAS COMPANY YOU DID IT WHEN YOU CALL TO ORDER ANOTHER BOTTLE. The handle
has an arrow pointing to the tank you are getting gas from and when the gauge
turns red it tells the driver which tank to change. If he knows you switched 
it already, no problem.
   I am very happy with gas, if the power goes out I have hot water and 
cooking and can leave the stove on to put some heat in the kitchen for short 
period of time (not recommended for unattended or long periods). And, I rather
cook with gas than electric.
Bill

     In my last two installations, I did not have ANY type of switchover
    valve or gauge for my bottled gas. The gas company merely comes
    by once every two months and tops-off the tanks. We also have a
    vacation cottage that has gas for heat and cooking which also does not
    have any switching valves. There is a gauge on one tank, but both
    feed a dual regulator all the time.
      My gas cost for a stove, hot water and gas dryer has been around $30
    a month for the last 6 years. this is for a family of four. I would
    like to note however, that my stove is pilotless (as I believe any
    new stove is). I have no doubt that this helped keep the usage down.
    
    					Kenny

    
    
    When I moved into my house I had bottled gas installed. It cost
    me about $30. This included parts and labor, parts being about twenty
    feet of copper tubing and the fittings. My stove was already set
    for LP gas so I didn't have to worry about that. I had a 500 pound
    tank put in. The gas co. supplies the tank for nothing and they
    come out automically and refill it every nine months. My first bill
    was $120 (that was due 30 days after installation) my fill up nine
    months later was ~$65. There is a BIG price break for bulk delivery.
    
    We only cook with gas now but a lot of it is baking or broiling.
    I never get any smell and the efficiency is the same as city gas,
    I mean, folks, gas is gas. Besides when there are power failures
    (in New England?) I can still cook and in worst case I can heat
    off my oven.
    
    BTW most larger companies service stoves etc. and tack the charges
    right onto your bill.
    
    go with gas in the bulk deliveries if you can.
    
    Steve
    

    HELP!! 
    
    I need to move the gas stove to prepare the subfloor in the kitchen.
    How can I shut off the gas supply going to the stove ? I found a
    valve on the small gas pipe connecting the stove. I tried to turn
    the valve but it would not turn. Is there special steps needed 
    to
    be done before the valve can be turned. Should it be turned clockwise
    or counterclockwise to shut off the gas. Is this something that
    can be done by homeowner himself. Or should it be done by a plumber
    ?
    I'm planning to do it today. Need the info asap. Thanks.
    

    Gas valves are shut off by turning it perpendicular to the pipe.
    
    Parallel to the pipe means it's on.
    
    (maybe the valve is just stuck from being on for so long.  A little
    WD-40 or penetrating oil may loosen it up)
    
    -al

    
    .1 sounds good except I would shut off the main valve while doing
    this. If you end up using too much force or some other problem occurs,
    you could end up with a leaking gas pipe or worse.
    
    Usually shutting off the main valve is a fairly simple operation.
    Just have to make sure you restart any pilots on water heaters,
    stoves, furnaces, etc.
    
    							Mark
    

    The design of the valve makes them very stiff to turn.
    You want to besure to support the pipe. If it ever broke murphy
    would be sure that it was on the wrong side of the valve.
    -j
    

    Thanks for all your replies.
    I did shut-off the gas although the valve was very stiff to turn.
    But turning it back on was much easier. I guess that was because
    the valve hasn't be turned for a long time ( I moved to the house
    10 yrs ago and never touch any gas valve ).

    I'm new to this notes file. Although I have done lots of reading 
    and applying specifics to our own home projects, I have never had 
    to write or ask any questions. mainly because some one else had 
    already covered things I was interested in. There are a lot of 
    beneficial articles to use.
    
    However, we are in the process of doing something that I haven't
    found covered in previous notes. (Maybe I missed something? If so
    feel free to direct my in the right direction.)
    
    We would like to convert a junior size antique wood stove, into a
    BBQ grill, but aren't sure of how to go about doing this.
    
    Since everyone in this file has been so helpful to us in the past
    with other home projects, (ie. patios, hard wood floors, etc.) we
    were hoping you could help us now on the "how to" of doing this
    project.
    
    Understand, we haven't even the slightest idea where to start, so
    any recommendation and/or suggestion are most welcome. Also, so
    are the directions on how to.
    
    

< Note 1362.1 by GNERIC::FARRELL "Thirty Six Bit Paleontologist.." >
                                -< 2 Sources: >-

For conversion of wood stoves, I'd try 2 places:

Ericson's Stoves, Littleton Train Station, Littleton,Mass.

Stanley Iron Works, Manchester,N.H., Ask for Preston Stanley

They should be able to help with parts,etc...


	I've got a 1920 ORIOLE Gas stove in our house that was completely
	redone/modernized by Preston  Stanley..


					JoeF

    Sounds great, only have one problem...
    Littleton, Mass. is a bit to far for me to have to travel to
    get ideas and or materials required. You see, were located in
    Colorado Springs, Colorado.
    
    But the suggestion was still the sort of thing I was looking for.
    Got anything better?
    
    D2
    

    GAS STOVE
    
    I HAVE A 1920'S GAS STOVE THAT NEEDS TO BE UPGRATED.
    
    1.  IT NEEDS A SAFTY PILOT.
    
    2.  ALSO NEEDS A OVEN THERMOMETER.
    
    THE QUESTION IS DOES ANYBODY KNOW ANYONE WHO DOES THIS WORK OTHER
    THEN  ERICKSON'S ANTIQUE STOVES IN LITTLETON MASS. 

Try Preston Stanley of "Stanley Iron Works" in Nashua,New Hampshire.  I've
got a 1920 Oriole stove that Preston rebuilt/modernized, and it's been
working super for since the day it was installed, 2 years ago.  Look in
any recent issue of YANKEE magazine, Preston will have an ad.   Erickson's
deals mostly in coal/wood stoves from what I was told.  BWT, Preston is
good about standing behind his work, as all his stoves have a 1 year
warranntee.

					JoeF

    On Friday morning all 4 burners on my gas stove started burning
    a bright orange flame. My wife says the oven flame looked the same.
    I tried to look at the furnace but from what I saw, that looked
    OK.
    Is there something I can do to get back a blue flame?
    This is a pretty old stove which we intend to replace in the next
    few months, so I'd hate to have to spend much $$$ on a fix.
    

    
    Something happened to change the air to gas mixture in your stove.
    I don't know much about stoves per se, but all gas burners have
    a shutter of some sort to adjust the air and the gas mixture.  A
    yellow orange flame usually indicates that the mixture is too rich
    (too much gas).  My stove has a shutter adjustment behind each burner
    control for this, but where you said that your stove is old, it
    might be that you only have one air gas shutter (but don't quote
    me on this, because I really don't know).  Adjusting mine is somewhat
    obvious; I take the top off the range, exposing the pilots, burners
    ,etc. then using s screwdriver loosen the shutter which is located
    between the control and the burner.  You either open the shutter
    (turning it by hand) to increase the air flow, or close the shutter,
    increasing the gas in the mixture until you get a mostly blue flame.
    After performing this, don't tighten the screws yet -- put the top
    back down, and observe the flame, as well as the ignition -- you
    may have to (once you've initally gotten the mixture right) add
    more air to the mixture (by opening the shutter a bit more) to
    compensate for the range top.
    
    This is obviously a generic response; you could have other problems,
    but what you are describing is most likely caused by the gas mixture
    being off.  You might simply find an obstuction or cooking dirt
    in front of the shutter -- this too can cause  the same symptoms.
    the 

    I wouldn't rush to fix it unless it still occurs when the outside
    temperature warms up.  So many people have the furnace on that your
    stove winds up being 'starved' for gas.  There ain't enough gas
    in the pipe for everybody when the freeze hits like it did.
    
    Look tomorrow when it gets up to 40� and see if it still burns orange.

    
    	Ditto on .2
    
    	My borther in law has the same problem when its real cold out.
    He has to light the pilot in his furnace about 2 times a day because
    there isn't enough pressure in the line.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    first of all the gas pressure that is being eluded to on natural
    gas lines in your house is only 2 lbs. if you have a pilot 
    problem replace the thermocuple, this is what keeps the pilot
    lit.  As for the orange flame, .1 was right there is an air shutter
    for each burner and over, loosen the wing nut behind the shutter,
    and try closing it a little, hand snug the wing nut, light the
    burner, if no improvement open it a little, try again, its a
    trial and error thing. do one burner, and find out from it
    what to do and then do the rest. I have a space heater in
    my basement, i've had both problems, the thermocouple costs
    about $11.  the adjustment i spoke about has to be made
    each year, its not a big deal.
    
    
    jim.

    re .-1
    
    You're absolutely right about the gas pressure inside the house
    and the adjustments.
    
    However, you're missing the point that in severe cold spells the
    quantity of gas in the main is insufficieint to supply the same
    pressure as that in relatively warm weather.
    
    Why make all these adjustments in a cold snap if when it warms up
    they become unneceeary or worse you have to re-do them.  The point
    is that it is a TEMPORARY situation that one can live with and it
    soon will be fixed.
    
    Don't fix something that ain't broke!

    One other thought...
    
    Last summer, our neighborhood was converted from underground
    LP gas to underground natural gas.  If you've burned LP gas
    before, you know that you never really get a true blue flame -
    there are usually a lot of yellow flickers with it.  Anyhow -
    I mentioned to the service guy that it'll be nice to get a blue
    flame, now that we've got natural gas.  he said that it's
    usually true, but that during the winter months gas companies
    will mix some LP gas into their natural gas lines to allow
    for adequate pressure and flow of gas during cold and high
    demand times.
    
    So - it may be that your gas has some LP mixed in, and that
    could be causing the yellow flames.  I'd just sit and wait
    for warmer weather, and see if it clears up.  Unless it's
    turning your pots black on the bottom, it's not hurting 
    anything.
    
    andy
    

    
    
    	So whats the scoop on the original problem now that the warmer
    wheather is here ? Has the problem gone away ?
    
    	-Steve-
    

    The flame is still yellow - but I think I'll wait a while before
    doing anything. As I said, we're planning to replace the stove by
    the spring. My wife is calling the gas company today to see what
    their opinion is. I'll report back when we get their 2 cents.
    

      
        Possibly the gas co. is doing work on the lines in your area.
    Last fall they were replacing the gas lines in my neighborhood and
    our gas stove burned yellow for almost a month. 
       

    We have a 2 month old gas stove, and last month our stove burned
    "orange-yellow" for about 3 days, then back to blue. I thought
    our furnace flame had an orange tint to it as well. So perhaps
    the gas companies do play games with the mixture.
    
    mike

    I have to agree with you. The flames turned blue 2 days ago for
    a day, and now it's back to yellow - tho not as yellow as before.
    I am going to assume the cause is external and not my problem to
    fix/change.

    Have you been painting? My wife complained about the color of the
    flame on our gas stove. I traced it to the fumes from some painting
    I was doing down in the cellar. It took about three days to change
    back to blue.

    Richard

    
    
    .13
        You pose a very interesting point, that I've been annoyed by,
        having done a lot of painting and urethaning of hardwood floors
    	a few years ago, and catching that odor and becoming pretty
        "light headed."  I did a little research and what I found was
    	that the vehicles contained in paints (more so in oil-based
        products) waxes, and a lot of household chemicals (lemon oil,
    	etc.) evaporate and combine with the chemical added to gas to
    	give it it's odor.  To most people the resultant fumes are
    	tolerable in small doses, but if one has any respiratory problems
    	or allergies, you might want to consider really opening up the
    	house, or turning the gas off until the product has dryed and
    	most of the solvents have evaporated.  (yep...just like the
    	label says!)

    Hair spray in the combustion air accelerates the wear (oxidation?)
    of the heat exchanger in a gas FHA furnace. In homes where the wife
    runs a part time beauty parlor, they have to be replaced yearly.
    
    
    Has anyone heard anything to verify the above? I read it in the
    paper years ago.

    
    
    The flames on my gas stove are orange whenever I run the cool mist
    humidifier...
    
    Doug

    I'd say you hit the nail on the head. I looked at the date on my
    original note and just called my wife. We both agreed that the
    we bought the humidifier the nite BEFORE the flame turned orange.
    We put the humidifier right around the corner from the stove.
    The humidifier ran heavily the first week or so, when the flame
    was constantly yellow. It doesn't run so much now, and the flame
    seems to be back to blue.
    I'd say case closed...
    

.2>    .1 sounds good except I would shut off the main valve while doing
.2>    this.
    
    	If you've got high pressure gas service, like I do, you will
    need a special wrench to open the main back up.
    
    	So, if you're going to shut the gas off at the main valve, it
    won't hurt to call the gas company to find out if you'll need a
    service call to get your gas back on.
    
    -mike z

I found the price between the self cleaning and non-self cleaning gas range
is around $160.

Could anyone tell me what is the difference between the non-self and self
cleaning gas range make the price so different? Is it worth go for the 
    self cleaning one?

Thanks in advance!!

    The self cleaning one is probably better insulated to hold the
    high temperatures needed to burn off the crud, thereby making it
    more energy efficient.  Possibly coated with a better finish to
    withstand the much higher temps.... these are only a guess.
    
    Anyone know for sure?  fra 

I presume you mean the oven.

The  material   coating  the  inside  of  the  oven  is  SUPPOSEDLY  different.
SUPPOSEDLY, it resists  food  caking on and is easier to clean.  Our experience
is that it still  needs  to  be  cleaned.  Since I never cleaned a non-er and I
don't do the cleaning on  this  one  I  cannot provide first hand observations.
However, Mrs oven cleaner claims it  was  worth  it.  But then, it was only $20
more, as I recall.

Dave

I believe .2 refers to a "continuous clean" oven, which is entirely different 
from self cleaning.  "Continuous clean" is the one with the special coating, 
which I don't think I've ever heard a positive word on.  Self cleaning is an 
oven that you can lock closed and heat up to somewhere near 1000� to burn off 
all the accumulated crud.

Paul

    There are already some notes on this subject in 2124, but they're so
    buried I can see that a separate note would be useful.
    
       Gary

    I just bought a self-cleaning Caloric gas oven. After living in an
    apartment that just has your basic stove that had to be manually
    cleaned, it's going to be a JOY to just turn the oven to CLEAN, lock
    the door and set the timers. Anyone who has had to SMELL Easy-OFF oven
    cleaner and then attempt to wash it off your hands (because you always
    forget that you're supposed to wear rubber gloves), knows what I'm
    talking about.
    A self-cleaning oven is worth it.
    
    I agree with one of the replies about continous cleaning ovens. I've
    never heard anything good about them. That's probably the reason most
    stoves are self-cleaning versus continuous cleaning.
    		Cindy
    

WARNING: Your smoke detector WILL go off if you have one near a
self-cleaning oven. Ours requires the battery be disconnected and
the windows opened. Our gas Tappen self cleaning vents to the top
of the stove and when the cleaning takes place, the very fine
soot sets the alarm off.

Otherwise, I love the self cleaning oven. It's great to clean off
the BBQ grates at the same time.

cal

    I just bought a new stove and did a bit of comparison shopping
    before I spent my money. It seems that stoves are a bit like cars ---
    options are where they make their money. For example, compare
    digital vs standard vs none for stove clocks. You'll find that a
    digital clock on a stove will be the most expensive little clock
    you ever bought.
    
    Likewise, the insulated tubing around the oven door is very expensive.
    If it's sorta tacked on rubber, it's cheap. If it's sorta tacked on
    fabric covered rubber, it's getting expensive. It's solidly put on
    fabric covered rubber, it's expensive.
    
    Look *very carefully* at the stickers and ask about the differences
    between the models. You'll find that there's not much difference
    between the self-cleaning units and the manual-clean ones other
    than the locking door and ability to crank up the heat. For my
    money, it isn't worth what they're asking.
    
    You also ought to consider the life expectancy of the self-cleaning
    unit. I've owned a number of older self-cleaning ovens that I wouldn't
    dare turn up the heat that high!

    re .7,
    I guess it depends upon how you like cleaning ovens. All you need is to
    bake an apple pie in which the juices pour out of the pie tin  onto
    your stove and ugh - a mess. I'm looking forward to not having to deal
    with getting on my hands and knees to clean up the goop that Easy-OFF
    turns into.
    
    If you don't bake or cook alot, then maybe its not worth it. However,
    for me, I don't have alot of extra time to relax, so if I can save
    15 - 20 or minutes by not cleaning the over - it's worth it.
    
    By the way, I agree with you about the digital displays. My oven would
    have cost $100 more with digital displays. Personally, I like watching 
    the clock hands move around.
    			Cindy
    

    To bake a pie: Place Mrs. Smith's frozen pie on top shelf.
                   Place cookie sheet lined with tin foil on bottom
                   shelf.
    
    
                   bake.
    
                   Remove pie - cut and add ice cream
                   Remove cookie sheet - toss out tin foil
    
                   Oh yeah, if you insist on making the pie yourself,
                   use a disposable pie plate.

    re: .9
    
    Why go to all that trouble?  It's easier, probably cheaper, more energy
    efficient, less wasteful, environmentally sounder, probably healthier
    and almost certainly better tasting to go to the local bakery, pick up
    a freshly baked, never frozen pie, made without preservatives, and if
    necessary, heat it up in the microwave.  
    
    For that matter, why bother with an oven at all?  It takes up valuable
    cabinet space that could be better used for other kitchen gadgets,
    video tape overflow, or an extra liquor cabinet.
    
    On the other hand, even occasional bakers appreciate a freshly baked
    apple pie, using local apples from the local farm stand or orchard,
    personalized spices, and no sugar (because the apples are so good), and
    if you're really into it, homemade crust.  And if you're going to do
    that, use a glass pie plate (for a better crust), and no foil liner
    (because it interferes with even heating).
    
    re: .8
    
    I disagree about the clock.  For some reason, the mechanical clocks
    that are put into even the most expensive ovens are cheap.  They're
    frequently one of the first things to break, and they're never very
    precise.  Granted, some of the digital clocks are equally bad.  We
    found that the digital clock on the Whirlpool line (at least the design
    they used two years ago) were well designed, precise, and easy to use. 
    We had to leave it behind when we moved, because the buyers of the
    house insisted it stay (yet another advantage of good appliances). 
    When it comes time to buy an oven again, I wouldn't hesistate to buy
    the same model (which has many other good design features, as
    documented by Consumer Reports).
    
       Gary

re .5:
>             it's going to be a JOY to just turn the oven to CLEAN, lock
>    the door and set the timers. Anyone who has had to SMELL Easy-OFF oven
>    cleaner 

    You must have never smelled a self-cleaning oven!

    A question for all the oven aficionados: do self-cleaning gas ovens
    self-clean as well as electric ones?

Our Tappan Gas self-cleaning does a fairly good job.

The comment about mechanical clocks; they are only expensive
cause they sell the whole unit. I repaired my mom's oven control
with a motor out of a cheap plug in type clock.

cal hoe

re: Note 3380.12 "...don't know 'bout electric"

We have a Jenn-Aire electric that cleans itself *spotless* with no odor (maybe
because it vents to outside?).  No idea how much a cleaning costs me, though.

Pete

    I have a GE P-7 (??) that is 11 years old and still runs fine. Have
    to admit I don't put it thru combat usage but it cooks and selfcleans
    like a champ. I would never get anything but a selfcleaner not only
    because I "hate housework" but also because oven cleaning
    products(unless they've improved in the last 10 yrs) make me extremely
    ill and the added cost is well worth it!!
    (of course, getting rid of the oven and putting in another fridge
    for the beer is a better idea....)
    
    Lynn
    

I have a self-cleaning oven ( I think the brand is Hot Point) that came
with the house I bought.  We tried self-clean a couple nights ago.
It's supposed to run for 3 hours, but after 2 1/2 hours I heard the
microwave oven (mounted above the oven) turn on its fan.  The microwave,
and the wall behind the oven, was too hot to touch!  No odor, and the
oven was wonderfully clean when we opened it up, but I can't beleive
that's what was supposed to happen.  We had something on top the oven
while this was going on, but it only blocked the burners, not the vent.
So I am now more than a bit leary of my self-cleaning oven -- I don't
want my house self-cleaned along with the apple pie residue!

	Larry

PS -- I've noticed that some people aren't very sensitive to noxious
stuff like easy-off, and some people are.  I'm in the latter category.
If you aren't bothered by easy-off, consider it a blessing.

    re .15:

    In our oven, the vent is under one of the burners -- but it's electric,
    so yours may be different if it's gas.

    Since it's Hotpoint, you could call the GE Answer Center's 800 number.
    If you don't know it, ask 800 information (800-555-1212).

	I'm putting this note in for a friend who is replacing a gas
    stove.  The current connection is via a flexible pipe so it 
    shouldn't be too hard but there is a question about the vent.  Are
    the location of vent outlets on stoves standardized?  If not, and
    the outlet on the stove doesn't line up with the flue vent what
    is the best way to make a connection?  Is the flexible metal vent
    pipe allowed on stoves?  Is there anything else to be aware of?
    
	She already knows to be sure to shut the gas and how to test
    the connections with soap bubbles to make sure that all is secure.
    Just looking for any gotch ya's.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    Vent outlets on stoves are not standardized. At least the new ones
    are not the same as on real old ones.
    
    I recently replaced a stove and had to purchase a short section
    of vent pipe which I cut and added to the existing pipe. The vent
    pipe is readily available in building supply stores. The pipe is
    made out of tin or aluminum and cuts rather easily so you should
    not have any problem with it.
    
    Ray

    
    Maybe I'm missing something, but are you guys talking about a normal
    four burner one oven under gas range, or another type of heat producing
    stove?
    
    I jsut replaced my range with a new Caloric, and this stuff about
    vents is news to me.  The only vent I'm aware of is the vent from
    the oven to the range top -- but I've never heard of venting a gas
    range unless you're talking about the Jenn Aire set up -- or unless
    I've been living dangerously and ignorantly!
    

    This is a 4 burner range with an oven underneath.  It also has a
    heating unit.  The vent comes off the back of the stove in the oven
    area and vents the stove to the chimney.
    
    George

  My experience is the same as .2 -- the oven on our all-gas kitchen
  range vents directly into the kitchen, and there's no provision made
  to vent it anywhere else. Are there ranges made which give you an
  option? Is this important enough to consider modifying our range?

    It sounds like George is discussing what I've heard described as a
    "side by side" unit. Not only does it cook, but also serves as the 
    source of heat for the kitchen, yes?
    
    These are normally vented to the chimney, but I've no idea what's
    legal or safe.
    
    Edd

    Edd has it right.  This is a stove with a heating unit included.
     The heater vents out the back and into the chimney.  Again, this
    isn't for me so I don't have all the details but what I've found
    out from you guys so far is that if the new stove (it's a used one
    actually) does not have a heating unit then venting is not a problem.
    One other question.  If the new stove does have a heating unit and
    there are no plans to use it (the heater on the old one was not
    used) does it still have to be vented?
    
    My friend thanks you for your replys.
    
    George

    My answer in .1 was in reference to a gas-on-gas stove, one that
    has a heating unit attached. Others were right to question what
    we were talking about as a normal stove does not need venting.
    
    As to .6, if you don't use the heater, the stove is just a stove
    and doen't "need" a vent. However, I'm sure safety codes will require
    the vent anyway since provision is made for one.
    
    Ray

    I'm in the market for a new gas cooktop for my to-be-remodelled
    kitchen, and I have a concern about the BTU rating of the burners.
    I've looked in COOKS and at the APPLIANCES-COOKING keywords here
    and haven't found much except a discussion of Viking stoves in
    COOKS.
    
    The unit I am looking at is a Kitchen Aid cooktop with sealed
    burners.  It claims that the larger burners have a rating of
    10,000 BTU for either natural or LP gas (this in itself
    is surprising since usually the natural gas rating is higher.)
    
    From what I have read elsewhere, 10,000 BTU just doesn't cut it for
    serious cooking, and is "slower" than an electric element for
    boiling or frying.  Yet the other makers seem to have even smaller
    burners!
    
    Kitchen Aid has another line with a maximum rating of 12,000 BTU,
    but it doesn't have the sealed burners I want.  Dacor has one with
    11,000 BTU burners, but it is poorly designed in my view.
    
    Is there that much difference in cooking performance between a
    10,000 BTU and a 12,000 BTU burner that should concern me?  Can
    anyone suggest another brand of cooktops with higher output
    burners?  (I've looked at Whirlpool, Magic Chef and Caloric.)
    
    Can burners be upgraded to a higher rating?  Has anyone done this?
    What does it entail?
    
    				Steve

Well, I answered one of my own questions.  KitchenAid does not support
upgrading the BTU rating of their cooktops.  I was told that this line
(the KGCT365T was the one we had in mind) didn't have the 12,000 BTU burner
because the sealed element design didn't allow enough air in for combustion.
It may also be due to the proximity of the cooktop surface.

(Actually, we have another problem in that there isn't space to mount the
cooktop over the built-in oven we had selected, but that's a different
story.)

Seems we'll have to look at other options.

			Steve

    
    	Take a look at this months Consumer's Reports. It has a section
    on Gas ranges. Can you say "serendipity?" I knew you could...
    
    bld
    

Steve,

A while back, in this old house where the couple rebuilt a barn
into a house, they had a resturant type range that had the higher
BTU rating. They mentioned such stoves had a required list of
hood vents and fire supression devices. That's where the expenses
are. If you take a look at the BTU ratings and the size of
burners on a propane gas grill, it might give you an idea what to
look for in gas stoves. Most sales-nurds don't know when we asked
about our gas stove.

Another place to look might be resturant supply stores.

I remember my sis looking for a speciality stove to
use a wok on but was told that such stoves required a permit that
stated a requirement for a special type hood to catch
grease/gases and fire supression devices.

calvin

Re: .2

I've already seen it, and several of the previous reviews.  The highest
rating on the burners they tested was 9000 BTU.  They didn't test
any cooktops or KitchenAid (KitchenAid doesn't make any ranges), and didn't
remark on the possibility of upgrading the ratings.

Re: .3

Unfortunately, the restaurant-quality ranges are out of my price-range.

		Steve

< Note 3904.0 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >

Steve,

I am sure that you must have tried notes "Gadgets and
Appliances". Do you know what's wrong with the node or if that
notes file is off the air?

cal

(1) Jeff Smith, the "Frugal Gourmet", has mentioned on his television
show (PBS) that it is possible to have the gas company upgrade one of
your burners to be "super-hot".  I don't know if this is a special
adjustment or some replacement parts or what.   I also don't know if it
applies to LP or only natural gas.   I suspect it is only applicable to
the more-or-less generic style open gas burner.

(2) There are now some lines of "restaurant type" stoves manufactured
specifically for home use.   I've never priced them, but I understand
that some of them may not be that much more expensive than first rate
appliances of the standard consumer sort.   In any case, if you choose
the restaurant type of stove be aware that it may require more clearance
for safe operation.  Check the manual before you buy.

An update - I've found that Thermador has introduced a cooktop that has
one 11K BTU burner, two 9K burners and a 5K burner, which is a nice combination.
It also looks as if I might be able to safely tweak the big burner a bit
hotter if I should need to.  It is only slightly more expensive than the
KitchenAid, and Thermador has a solid reputation in stoves (which KitchenAid
does not, they haven't been making them long enough).

			Steve

Steve, I can't find out what the ratings for my Jennair burners are, but they
are more than adequate for my "serious cooking" binges.  If you came across the
specs in your searches, I'd be interested.  (I've got the gas top/elec oven
combo).

					-JP

Given that I'm installing a gas top and electric oven, the JennAire looked
intriguing, but it suffers from one unforgiveable fault - the downdraft
system steals about a third of the oven space and results in a tiny oven.
Some of my pans won't fit in it.

I'll see if I can get the specs for the JennAire, though.

			Steve

I didn't notice, until yesterday.  I was putting some plum tomatoes in to dry,
and ran out of room on the broiler pan rack supplied with the oven.  So, I got
the broiler pan rack from the old oven.  It barely fit!  Fortunately, this is
the biggest pan I have, and it's going with the old stove when I sell it.
The last stove (Roper gas) had lots of depth and width, but not much height
because of the self cleaning configuration.  The new Jennair does have lots
more room than the older ones did, but not a lot.  Fortunately, I don't do that
much large baking (and the DEC turkeys get smaller every year).

What I'm ending up with is the Thermador cooktop and a Whirlpool 30-inch
single oven, which is the largest capacity model I can find.  Unfortunately,
it's so big that I can't fit it directly under the cooktop so the cooktop
will be to one side.

The other thing about the JennAire is that it only comes in a 30-inch range,
and I want the spacing of burners on a 36-inch cooktop as I have some BIG
pots.  Thermador and KitchenAid space the burners in a thoughtful design,
other makers don't (Dacor included - they have no more than 10-1/4 inches
between burners even on their 36-inch cooktop!)

				Steve

    My wife and I would like to replace our old gas stove/oven (it's a
    1950's vintage Kenmore) with a new model.
    
    What are the steps we need to take in replacing the stove.  More
    specifically, how do we coordinate the delivery and installation.  We
    live in Massachusetts, and I have heard that plumbers must do the
    installation.  Must the plumber be present at delivery to perform the
    installation?
    
    Also, how do we dispose of the old stove?
    
    Finally, any recommendations on stoves that are child-safe are
    appreciated?
    
    Bo

    Okay, so what about average people's gas cooktops?  Like a previous
    reply said, Consumer Reports didn't discuss separate cooktops.  I'm
    reading the cooktop portions of the gas range reports.  It sounds like
    they are pretty equal as far as quality and reliability goes.  The
    report doesn't talk about sealed burner tops.  I insist on them for
    keeping the top clean.  Do you have sealed burners?  Are you glad or
    sorry?
    
    I think I'll be happy with a 30" cooktop, because we rarely use more
    than two at a time.  Any comments on that?
    
    Appreciate the input.
    
    Elaine
    

Re:  Sealed cooktops and cleanliness:

My old Roper and my new Jennaire don't have sealed tops and I don't have 
any cleaning problems.  The top has a catch basin designed into it in both 
cases, so it takes a lot of boiling over to actually drip thru into the stove
works.  It did happen once on my Roper, though.  The best thing about it is that
the top comes off, the jets do, too. Once removed, they can be cleaned outside
or in the dish washer, and the rest of the stove can be cleaned easily with
some liquid cleaner and paper towels (for difficult problems, place 1-2 towels
on it, and soak the towels with full strength liquid cleaner, wait 5 minutes,
wipe, and the grime will come right off).  The Jennaire is easier to clean,
because more of the parts fit in the dishwasher.  In my experience, the most
difficult part of the stove to keep clean was the coated part of the cooktop.
Being white, it showed stains the most, and I had to wait until things cooled
down before being able to clean up most of the spills and stains.

RE: .8

<     My wife and I would like to replace our old gas stove/oven (it's a
<     1950's vintage Kenmore) with a new model.

	In March, my husband and I replaced our new gas stove/oven (1976 
	vintage Caloric) with an old Quality model (vintage 3/19/1931).
    
<     What are the steps we need to take in replacing the stove.  More
<     specifically, how do we coordinate the delivery and installation.  We
<     live in Massachusetts, and I have heard that plumbers must do the
<     installation.  Must the plumber be present at delivery to perform the
<     installation?

	We talked with the guy BEFORE he delivered the new/1931 stove. 
	We left the old/1977 stove in place and used it up until
	delivery.  One afternoon, the delivery team turn the gas supply
	off at the local valve, disconnected the stove, and hauled it
	outside, leaving it on the front lawn (per our request).  The
	delivery team did NOT connect the new stove to the gas supply. 
	The next morning, our plumber came to connect and level the
	stove.  Happily ever after. 
    
<     Also, how do we dispose of the old stove?
    
	I called the department of public works, I was referred to the
	board of health, from which I could buy a $25 sticker and the
	trash people would take the stove away on trash day.  A week or
	two later, when I personally visited town hall to buy the $25
	sticker, I was asked if I could haul the stove to the town
	garage.  Yep!  Good - that saves me the $25 and also saves the
	town, because hauling costs the town even more than the $25.  So,
	by dark of night, in cold of winter, hubby and I wrestled the
	stove into the van and dropped it off at the town garage, right
	where it says "metal" only, next to a filing cabinet and a
	refrigerator.  A week later, the stove and its new friends were
	gone, replaced with other used appliances.  

<     Finally, any recommendations on stoves that are child-safe are
<     appreciated?
    
	You don't want our 1931 stove.  Only a rocket scientist can use our
	new oven controls with their autolighting capabilities, but any two
	year old could reach the knobs for the surface burners, and there
	is no auto-lighter there. 

G'luck!

Sally

    Sally,
    
    Thanks for your relating your experience!
    
    Bo

Well, I ended up buying the Thermador GG36 cooktop.  And it's going back to
the store as quickly as I can get the Sterling cooktop with which I'm going
to replace it.  I never want to see another Thermador product again...

The Thermador GG36 has one enormous, fatal flaw, one that I also consider
a safety hazard.  Tell me what you think of this...  The layout of the 
cooktop is something like this:


                   \ /                \ /
                  - 2 -              - 3 -
                   / \                / \


          \ /                                  \ /
         - 1 -                                - 4 -
          / \                                  / \

                    (A)  (B)        (C) (D)

Where burner 1 is 6000 BTU, burners 2 and 3 are 9000 BTU and burner 4
is 11,000 BTU.  Nice arrangement so far.  Then we have knobs A, B, C and
D to control them.  Now, let's say you want to turn on big burner 4.
Which knob do you want?  Did you reach for knob D?  Wrong - you just turned
on burner 3.  You wanted knob C instead.  Similarly, burner 1 is controlled
by knob B and burner 2 by knob A.

The markings on the knobs are so small that I never noticed this absurd
arrangement until I had the plumber in to hook up the gas.  The sales staff
in the store didn't know about it either, but now that they do, they point
it out to customers who usually end up rejecting it in favor of KitchenAid
or Sterling.  If you think about it a moment, they had to go out of their
way to come up with this lunatic system, as the gas pipes have to cross
under the surface.  The 30-inch model doesn't have this particular problem.

I consider this a safety hazard as it is illogical and, no matter how hard
I try to learn which knob goes where, I might still reach for the wrong one
by instinct.

Now, that might be enough right there to discourage me, but there's more.
The cast-iron grates which sit on top of the burners are large, rather high
and well shaped.  But they don't have any kind of notch or peg to interlock
with the burner pan underneath, and hence they spin any time you move a pan.
This scrapes away at the paint of the burner pan.  (Also, the design allows
some kinds of pans to slip easily on the surface of the grate.)  Every other
brand I've seen has some method of preventing the grate from turning.

But wait, there's more!  The unit we got was defective out-of-the-box.  One
of the knobs would not start the ignitors when turned.  You'd get gas, but
no spark.  So the store orders a replacement spark control module.  Each
week for five weeks, Thermador swears that they put the module in the mail.
Each week for five weeks, they then say "Oh, I guess we really didn't.  Next
week for sure!"  After a month and a half of this, the store pulled a 
module out of their display and sent a tech over to replace it.  Unfortunately,
that didn't fix it.  The tech had tested the switch previously, so perhaps
there's a problem in the wiring harness.  But at this point, I don't
care anymore.

The store manager at that point told me he'd let us swap the Thermador for
another brand, and after examining those he carried, we settled on a
Sterling 5-burner top, a line which he had not carried when we settled on
the Thermador.  The Sterling is British, and is what you'd get if you
bought GE's high-end "Monogram" series.  It has two 11,000 and three
6,000 BTU burners, and the knobs and grates are designed intelligently.
I admit it's a bit of a risk, as I know nothing else about the brand, but
I liked what I saw in the unit's construction, and I feel good about the
store standing behind what it sells.

Which brings me to the store, P.E. Fletcher of Nashua, and its owner,
David Pastor (along with the salesman we worked with, Pete Hostage).  I cannot
say enough good things about Fletcher's and its staff.  They have bent over
backwards to make sure we were happy with our purchases, going far beyond
what I'd ever expect of a store nowadays.  And their prices are competitive
as well.  If you're in the market for appliances, and live anywhere near
Nashua, go shop at Fletcher's - you won't be sorry.

And as for Thermador - I'll be writing a rather strong letter to their
company president to let them know exactly what I think of their products
and support.

				Steve

But isn't it standard for gas stoves to have the knobs for the back burners
on the outside?  The unusual thing about yours is that the burners are in
a trapezoid arrangement rather than a rectangle.  In a standard stove, the
piping is as follows, where the asterisks are burners and the o's are knobs.


		  *	*
		 /	 \
		/ *	* \
		| |	| |
		o o	o o

We've had the sterling for about 6 months and are very happy with it.  I
discovered a scratch in it after installation.  We called, even though I
didn't know if we put the scratch in it or not.  It was still covered under
warrantee; they came out and replaced the top.  

The sterling person also let us know about a cleaner they supply for the 
cooktop.  It has silicon in it and keeps the top very shiny (btw. the cooktop
does seem to require above average maintenance to keep it looking good).
Send me mail if you want to know how to get it.

We installed it on an island, and thus have the popup vent.  I was somewhat 
newvous about it, based on other notes in the conference, but it has been 
very good at exhausting fumes - even when we use the electric fry pan next to
the cooktop (yes, even with 5 burners, we use the electric frypan sometimes).

Re: .15

With slide-in ranges, which have an arrangement as you describe, if the
knobs are arranged the way you describe, the knob closest to the front
burner controls that burner.  Simple and obvious.

Few separate cooktops arrange the burners rectangularly, as that wastes
space and puts the burners closer together than would be useful (especially
with large pots).  KitchenAid has the same burner and knob layout as
Thermador, but properly has the outside knob control the outside burner - they
also have "power-track" lines on the cooktop to visually connect the burner
to the correct knob.  Others I have seen put the knobs in a column along the
right-hand side of the surface.  This generally requires you to look at the
markings to determine what goes where - nothing is obvious.  Dacor does
this, for example.

The Sterling puts the knobs in the same layout as the burners, which is
immediately obvious.

			Steve

Re: .16

Thanks for the words on your experience with the Sterling.  As for appearance,
it seems that any black glass cooktop has this problem.  The Thermador shows
any slightest smudge or speck of dirt, and I expect the Sterling will be
no different.  A white or almond cooktop would have less trouble here.

			Steve

The only reason I saw the scratch was because we were using a 500w halogen
work light to illuminate the kitchen (I got a head start on my tan also).  Once
the ceiling lights were in, it was hardly noticeable; but they still replaced 
it.

My wife has also called the sterling hotline a few times for various questions
and has always gotten very good service.

ps.

We found that we could have drawers in the cabinet under the cooktop.  However,
if you use the downdraft unit, they will have to be made shorter to 
clear the vent mechanism.  Our cabinet maker waited until after the cooktop
was installed to make the drawers.

Re: .19

The Sterling has another advantage over the Thermador and KitchenAid.  It
is shallower in the counter, thus giving more clearance below it for a
drawer or something else.  Also, the gas inlet is at the far back of the
unit, giving you a chance to clear the drawer.  Thermador puts it several
inches in from the back, and we had to have the drawer notched for it.

We're not getting the model with the downdraft vent.

			Steve

        I've had one of the KitchenAid (they bought out Chambers for these
        industrial gas models) cooktops for 18 months and love it. There
        is no problem putting a drawer under it. We needed a small notch
        in the back to clear the pipe, but that was it.
        
        The knobs are clearly marked as to which burner they control. Two
        burners (LF, RR) are 8000 BTU, the other two (RF, LR) are 12000
        BTU. Those are great for woks, etc. There is also an electric
        griddle in the center. Evewry other problem you mentioned about
        the Thermador is "fixed" on the KitchenAid.  It does need a
        powerful exhaust hood, at least 400 cfm.

    We are looking to buy a gas stove/oven. My wife wants to get one with
    a higher BTU rating burner since she cooks with the " wok " all the
    time. I saw one made by Magic Chef that has 2 12KBTU and 2 9K BTU
    burners at Flatcher(sp?) in Woburn and at Yugo in Melrose. Does anyone
    has any experience ( goo/bad ) with either of them ?
    
    Also, does GE, or any other brand(s) make stove/oven with 12K BTU ?
    

    I think it's Hugo's in Melrose.  They have a very good reputation and
    are very helpful.  They are a little more expensive than a Fretter's,
    but they are also more personal.  I've been in the store numerous times
    to get parts and info and they have always been very helpful. 
    Fortunately for me, none of our appliances have died in the last few
    years so I cant attest to their sales or service from my own
    experience.  I have lived in the Melrose for 5 years and have only
    heard good things about them.
    
    Rhonda
    

    re: -1
    	Yes, it is Hugo. I found their price is lower than Fretter's. They
    	also will deliver the gas range free to the kitchen while Fretter
    	will charge a $25 for that service. Thanks for the info and I think
    	I will buy it from Hugo.
    
    

    Moderator - I didn't see an appropriate topic where this fit in, so
    please feel free to move it if you see the right topic.
    
    My young daughter tipped over a saucepan full of water on our propane
    gas stove.  After mopping up, only three of the four burners have
    returned to use.  When turning on the fourth burner, the gas comes out,
    but there is no ignition (the stove is electronic ignition).
    
    Any ideas on what to do to help restart the ignition?
    
    Bo

>>         <<< Note 4932.0 by ICS::KAUFMANN "Life is short; pray hard" >>>
>>                 -< Gas stove burner doused--how to restart? >-

I would just wait a day and try it again.  Something is probably  still a
little wet.  I have a sealed top propane gas stove and sometimes when I
clean it too much,  the same thing happens.  It usualy returns to working
order the next day.

Garry

Problem: Converting LP (bottled gas kitchen stove) to Natural Gas use

Disclaimer: I could swear I saw this discussed, but KEYWORD APPLIANCE and
        index 1111.7 didn't help.

Background: I have a kitchen stove that was last used on propane or bottled gas
        and I'm on city Natural Gas.  I have a Hotpoint model RGB628GEJ1AD.
        A call to Hotpoint informs you they are owned by GE. GE help line 
	@ 800-442-4092 uncovers that the installation instructions are out 
	of print. Sigh.

	They did tell me my model is equipped with a Universal Orafice. I
        think I can deal with that. I suspect all I need do is connect this
        thing to a gas line and take a wrench to each orafice and turn until
        I like the height of the flame.  Finding the one for the oven burner
        may be trickier, but maybe I'll be lucky.

        I then called Ron, the Appliance Doctor in Nashua (what a wonderful
        appliance repairman, I highly recommend him.  603-882-2631).  He told
        me I also need a pressure regulator for Nat. Gas which you don't need
        for LP gas.  Sometimes they leave it inline for LP but disable it cause
        there is already a regulator on the line at the tank.  Sometimes they
        remove it.  For city gas, you have to a have a regulator as pressure
        is not constant.

        I found the regulator easily enough.  I looked where the gas line
        comes in to the stove and followed it to a white metal 2" square
        box in the line.  In the top is a 1/2" slotted brass cap.  On the
        top were stamped the letters LP. Very encouraging.  I inserted a
        screwdriver in the slot, rotated and popped off the cap.  Upon
        inspection I observe that the other side is stamped NG.  Its evident
        that when the LP side is up, a spring is depressed and when the NG
        side is up the spring is not depressed.  Sure looks simple and easy.

Question:
        So, is it really that simple?  When the NG is up and the spring is
        not depressed, I'm no longer bypassing the regulator?  Anybody done
        this conversion before?  Am I missing anything?
 

    
      For LP gas, there is a regulator on or near the tank. LP gas uses a
    slightly higher pressure than Nat. I think I have done this same
    change. I think flipping the screw and adjusting the jets is all you
    have to do. Call a place like Gene's Appliance repair in Nashua. He
    caters to do it yourselfers. He'll be able to tell you.
    
    				Kenny

    I have always done MOST of my own work on Natural Gas.  I NEVER do
    anything I have not seen done before AND had explained to me by an
    experienced person.  Perhaps I am just nervous, I like to think it is
    prudence. If this were me, I would pay an appliance person to do it and
    I would learn from that.
    
    Natural Gas is quite a bit different from LP, and it is not always
    obvious.  For instance, although ~60lbs is supplied to the meter, the
    output is in x".  If you were to shut off your meter feed to install
    your stove (perhaps your installation does not have a shut-off in the
    line at the stove or perhaps you need to run a new line), you just turn
    the valve off.  But what about turning back on?  Do you just swing it
    back open?  There is a device in the line from the street to your
    meter (underground, of course) that is called a "fuse" but is really a
    safety valve.  If the fuse detects a rapid drop in pressure (as if a
    line broke in the house), it actuates and shuts off the flow of gas. 
    
    This can, and often does, happen if you turn the valve back on quickly.
    
    Although the fuse is tilted down towards the street so that the bearing
    can roll back away from the seat when the pressure stabilizes, it often
    sticks in place.  Then you call the Gas company.  They attach a propane
    tank with more than 60 lbs to your meter and try to force the ball back
    thereby resetting the fuse.  Sometimes that does not work.  Then the
    "street crew" comes up and may need to dig up your lawn to find the
    fuse.  Although the Gas company does not normally charge for
    maintenence up to the meter, if they find out that YOU caused the
    problem, you WILL be billed; and it ain't cheap.
    
    There are other examples, many that are safety related, and will not be
    covered by your homeowners insurance.
    
    Gas work is one of those cases where if you have to ask, you should pay
    someone else who does NOT have to ask.
    
    As always, Just My (Nervous Nellie, in this case) Opinion.
    
    Dave

    I am really surprised you didn't get help from G.E. Answer.
    I visited their Answer Center in Kentucky last year as part of
    a benchmark project I was conducting.  They have an extensive
    hard copy library, covering products dating back to at least
    the 1940's.   In addition to the customer rep's handling the
    phones, they have a number of highly experienced technical
    personnel on hand.  I suggest you call back and ask to
    speak to a supervisor.

    
    OK, Note wake up call......
    
    Its just about new kitchen time.  I have a gas stove right now.
    Its a Celoric, 4 burner with oven and broiler option.  The burners
    are the small dia. size.  I think it works great but the cook thinks
    electric is better.   There seems to be a problem with lowering the
    heat on the cooktop (looks fine to me!).  I look at the flame but
    if you look at the dials.  They have click settings to which the lowest
    is a little hi...   The oven has the auto set where it come up to
    temp and then turns on and off.  
    
    I'd like to keep a gas unit.  But need to insite on different stoves
    or brands that might relate to an electric user.  Comments from
    boths side welcome!
    
    JD
     

    Gas is generally preferred for cooktops, but it takes getting used to
    if you're used to electric.  Primarily, a gas cooktop can change the
    amount of heat applied very quickly, electric elements have a time
    lag.  However, most gas cooktops are a bit slower than electric on
    high, though you can get high-output gas units.
    
    If you go for a "sealed burner" unit, you'll sacrifice some amount
    of control in terms of getting the highest or lowest setting.
    Brands do vary.
    
    GE has what looks like a very nice gas range with a huge oven -
    I think they call it XL-44.
    
    				Steve

Long ago and in a galaxy far, far away I supported myself cooking in a
restaurant for a few years. While growing up, and learning to cook, my family
had an electric stove. In my opinion, for whatever that's worth these days, I
would never opt for an electric stove.  You have much more control of heat in a
gas stove. With gas, the heat is infinitely (more or less) variable and changes
in control knob position result in instant changes in heat at the stove top.
With electric, the control knob is usually at detent positions and it takes an
obvious amount of time to heat and/or cool the elements.  If everything else in 
my house were electric (heat, water) I would pay to run in gas lines or to put
in a Propane bottle. 

My wife, who is a superb cook and now does all our cooking agrees.

As always, For What It's Worth...

Dave

re .13:

>With electric, the control knob is usually at detent positions

Not true of recent stoves (past 20 years or so).

For what it's worth, we opted for a gas cooktop, and an electric wall oven to
suit our needs.  The instructions that came with the cooktop tell you how to
adjust the flame at its lowest setting, so you can use the knobs.  We have
sealed burners which are quite large.  We don't get much control for small pans.

Elaine

    Gaggenau (sp?) makes a cooktop with two gas burners and two electric
    ones.  I'm sure some other manufacturers must have figured out the
    market potential of this combination too.
    
    Paul

Sigh, I wish I could have a gas stove again.  Of course I can, but since
there are no gas lines in our neighborhood, I'd have to buy a new stove 
and then get an external propane tank.  Electric is okay for most 
purposes, but cooking with a wok is so much easier with a gas stove.
Maybe that's why I don't use my wok so much (or maybe it's just that I 
don't have the time with my commute?)

PeterT 

    
    
    Thanks......Keep inthe input coming!
    
    re: Elaine.  You mentioned "large sealed bruners."  Mine are the 
        small sealed units with the electric start.  Does yours have the
    	E-start and are you able to turn the flame down easy enought
    	to keep the pot on a Lowwwwwww simmer?
    
    Anything on the Oven section????
    
    JD

    
      Every gas stove I have ever seen has a tiny adjustment screw in the
    center of the shaft under the knob to adjust the flame when it is all
    the way down. If your flame is too great when on the lowest setting, you
    adjust that screw.
    
    				Kenny

My cooktop has an electric start.  The reason I say the sealed burners are large
is that I have seen a cooktop (Whirlpool, I think) with 3 large and 1 small.  I
had wanted to get the Whirlpool, but at the time, it was not convertable to run
with propane.  I ended up with a Magic Chef, where all four burners are the same
size, which is about the size of my smallest cast iron fry pan.  

For a large pot, I get the full range of flame sizes, down to almost off.  But
for small pans, if you define "HI" as "the flame touches the outer edge of the
pan", I'm using medium sometimes, so I don't have the full range.  I wish the
diameter of one burner were smaller for these pans.

Elaine

�However, most gas cooktops are a bit slower than electric on
�    high, 
    
    In my experience, all electric cook tops are slower than gas.  Gas is
    much easier to control as well.  

Re: .21

I suppose it depends on what you're doing.  An electric element will bring
a pot of water to boil before a gas element, unless you've got one of the
unusually large gas elements.  But I don't consider this a problem - gas
is "fast enough" for me and I like the control.

					Steve

    Plus, even if you lose electricity, you can still cook and supply some 
    heat!

�An electric element will bring
�a pot of water to boil before a gas element, 
    
    Like I said, not in my experience even using standard gas burners.  Ask
    anyone who brews their own beer and has to bring 2 to 6+ gallons to a
    boil if they'd rather do it on an electric or gas range.  They'll
    select the gas everytime.
    
    My current electric stove is even slower than most electrics -- it uses
    the flat cast iron burners.

	I don't brew beer, but in my experience I prefer gas too.
	It is much faster, not only in the long run, but also
	is much quicker in that it's immediatly starts transfering
	heat on startup, whereas electric has to heat up the element
	first before you get much.  Also gas is much easier (and
	quicker) to make popcorn on because you have that finner
	level of control (and can lift the pan up just high enough
	off the flame).

A lot of gas stoves *do* have low flame controllability problems ... this
is not unusual.  It is often hard to adjust the flame to a very low level
without going out with the slightest breeze.  This has a lot to do with the
actual burner design.

Stuart

    
    Ah!  Thanks Stuart.
    That seem to be my problem.  I can turn the flame down but
    you have to watch it to bring it down and keep an eye one it
    after that.
    Does anyone have a stove that they find easy to do this?
    Is an open burner better than a sealed or is it in the control?
    
    JD  

    I don't believe we've ever had a problem with a low flame blowing out
    on our Magic Chef. We have the sealed burners - we got them because
    they're easier to keep clean (stuff doesn't fall down into a drip pan).

Seems to be a mixture (my experience was with English gas stoves) ... 
after teh conversion from manufactured coal gas to natural gas, there
were a LOT of stoves that were just about impossible to simmer.  Many
had "sealed" burners ... others had open burners.  Some controls (as
previously mentioned) have low volume adjustements ...  The size, and 
shape and thickness of the burner jets (not the gas / air mixture jets)
have a lot to do with the ability to simmer.

Some burners will simmer better after they  get hot.

Best bet is to call the manufacturer and ask if there is any way to adjust 
the simmer.

    
    
    Simmer problem....yap, forsure!  Whats a good gas stove mfg.,
    who's set up for burners that are able to give you a wide range
    of control??
    
    JD

�    Simmer problem....yap, forsure!  Whats a good gas stove mfg.,
�    who's set up for burners that are able to give you a wide range
�    of control??
    
    Caloric used to have what they called a "burner with a brain".  They
    might still offer it.  It provided great control.  My mother swears by
    Caloric (I bought one of their electric stoves -- adding gas was too
    expensive).

    I have a 10 yr. old Whirlpool (natural) gas stove which has a problem.
    The problem is that the burners come on intermittently - sometime I
    will hear the "click click click" sound and the burners will come on -
    other times, there is no "click" sound, but there is gas coming out and
    I can use a match to light the burners.  There is no predicting when
    the burners will work and when they won't.  Any ideas as to the cause?
    Someone mentioned it may be that the regulator needs cleaning or needs
    to be replaced.  Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated!
    
    Also, can you recommend an apppliance repair person in the Greater
    Lowell area who could fix this problem?  Thanks!

Not the regulator - there's an "ignitor module" which causes the ignitor
to spark when the gas is turned on.  It looks as though this is failing.
It can be dangerous because if a lit burner gets blown out, it might not
reignite on its own.

				Steve

    Thanks for your reply Steve...now, are there any reliable and
    trustworthy appliance repair-people in the Greater Lowell area I can
    call upon?  Thanks.
    
    

     Two issues:

     We bought a Magic Chef gas stove and when the burners are turned to 
the Low position, the flame goes out when the gas is still on.  The Maytag 
repairman (they own Magic Chef) came out and concluded thats the way its 
designed and there is no adjustment he can make.  Maytag's customer 
service says its the way its designed and we should have not bought the 
unit if we didn't like the design.  Great concept, but the unit wasn't on 
the floor and even if it had been, how many gas stoves are hooked up in 
the showroom? !!   Is there any way to fix the gas controls so that the 
flame doesn't go out on a low setting?

     The local dealer agrees that the stove is unsafe and Maytag's 
response unreasonable and has agreed to take the stove back.  Now we're 
looking at "professional" alternatives.  DCS/Thermador, Imperial, Viking, 
Five Star, etc.  Does anyone have experience or recommendations with the 
"professional" tier of stoves?

    It sounds like there's not enough pressure in the gas line.  I'd have
    the gas company check the pressure and adjust the regulator(at the gas
    meter) if necessary before I return the stove, ....unless you don't like
    the stove and really want to return it.             

    We have a Magic Chef gas stove and it doesn't go out when it's on the
    lowest setting. What's the lowest setting for if it's designed to go
    out when you try to use it? Maytag's response makes no sense to me.

    sounds a little like a problem we once experienced.  Both the water
    heater and furnace pilots wouldn't stay lit.  The gas company came out
    and replaced the meter and the regulator.  They said the meter had
    gotten old and the bellows (I think it was the bellows) wouldn't allow
    the gas to flow sufficiently to keep the pilots running.
    
    The reg. went also because they are replacing units that contain
    mercury.
    
    Mark

     There is enough gas pressure to run the heating system; there should 
surely be enough to keep a burner on the stove going!

     Its very interesting that another Magic Chef doesn't have this 
problem -- makes me less and less impressed with Maytag's service 
department. 

     The good news is that the dealer will take the stove back and work 
out things with Maytag himself.  


     Now does anyone have experience or comments about Viking or other 
'professional' style stoves?  The dealer Mass Buying Power referred me to 
(Beach Sales in Revere) is quoting a price thatrs identical to everyone 
we've already talked to.

        Many gas stoves have an adjustment behind the control knob. Pull
        the knob off the spindle and see if the spindle is hollow. If it
        is, then shine a light into the shaft and you may see a small
        screw slot - this is the fine control of the low level flame.
        
        Andy
        

>        Many gas stoves have an adjustment behind the control knob. Pull
>        the knob off the spindle and see if the spindle is hollow. If it

    And if that be the problem... then why didn't the "Reliable"
    Maytag repair man know about it. Maybe they spend too much time
    back at the office waiting for the phone to ring???

    I'd be inclined at this point to take up the dealer's offer and
    return the thing.

    Charly

>    And if that be the problem... then why didn't the "Reliable"
>    Maytag repair man know about it. Maybe they spend too much time
>    back at the office waiting for the phone to ring???
>
>    I'd be inclined at this point to take up the dealer's offer and
>    return the thing.

     I'll pull the knobs off and see if there's an adjustment there.  But 
even if there is, my wife says to not screw around with it - just get it
out of the house!

     The latest is that the igniters stopped working!!!!!  They crapped 
out over a period of about a week, when we noticed that the burners all 
started with a big fa-whump.  It was caused by the igniter not starting to 
spark soon enough.  Now they don't spark at all.  Unbelievable!!

>     <<< Note 239.104 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>
>
>Not the regulator - there's an "ignitor module" which causes the ignitor
>to spark when the gas is turned on.  It looks as though this is failing.
>It can be dangerous because if a lit burner gets blown out, it might not
>reignite on its own.

I'm having problems with the ignitors on our gas stove, but they aren't
the kind that automatically start when you turn the gas on.  Instead, 
you turn the knob past "high" and the ignitor starts clicking.  A few 
days ago the ignitors stopped working on all four burners.  The following
day they were working again.  The third day (today) they've again stopped
working.

Could someone describe to me how these beasts work so I can take a shot
at repairing them?

Thanks in advance,
Hal Laurent

    If they all go out at once it's probably the supply of electricity to
    the stove.  Try checking to see that the main cord from the stove to
    the wall outlet is plugged in all the way, the contacts are clean, the
    outlet is o.k., etc.

We have a ~10yr old GE gas range.  We don't use the oven too often - in fact,
the last time I remember using it was about a month ago.  Yesterday, I turned
the oven on...and it just didn't heat up.  The burners work ok.   This oven has
a stop knob that you need to push in to start heating the oven right away.  I
had cleaned the stove top thoroughly a couple of days ago and so I fiddled with
the start/stop knobs yesterday...but no dice! Any ideas what could be wrong?  

    	Does it have a pilot light or electronic ignition ? 
    
    	For ovens with a pilot light, I believe most (if not all) had safety 
    valves to turn the gas off to the oven in the event the pilot light went 
    out. Follow the directions for relighting the pilot that came with your
    stove.
    
    	If it has electronic ignition, you could try lighting it by hand.
    If it lights, it's the ignition. If not, it sounds like a clog somewhere
    preventing gas flow to the oven burner.
    
    	Ray

Most ovens use a thermocouple (sp?) to detect a gas-on-but-no-flame scenario. 
This is the same system employed to monitor the pilot flame.  Its fairly common
for the thermocouple to go bad which results in the control mechanism keeping
the gas shut off.

If this is the case and you have a pilot you won't be able to keep it lit.  If
you have an electronic ignition, the oven should light but shortly go out.

There is no pilot light..this unit has electronic ignition.  Re. -2, when you
say, I am afraid I am totally a novice at this - where is the oven burner
usually located ( the one I am supposed to manually ignite?)

    	I haven't had a gas stove for some time now, but if yours has the
    seperate broiler section at the bottom, pull it open and look up. You
    should be able to see it.
    
    	Ray