Conference 7.286::home_work

    $87,600
    

    re .0
    
    I believe it would be a much better investment to build a 7 room
    house than a 6 room house.
    
    Life styles can change but 
    3 bedrooms
    living room
    dining room
    kitchen
    den/family room/guest room
    
    is still the minimum *popular* size

    $50 to $60 per square foot of living space... 1/3 to 1/2 that per
    square foot for garages.
    
   

    re .3  I'm not sure of the square footage yet.
    Now my wife is
    interested in a split level instead of a two story.  Some friends
    of ours had a split level built 3 to 4 years ago, did their own
    contracting and it cost them about 45,000. 
    
    chris d.

    $50 to $70 per sq. ft., depending on whether you are the general
    contractor or not, what kind of material used, how much you do
    yourself, etc.,.

    a note of interest----in numerous real estate offices i've been
    in lately----split entry houses "seem"to have lost there appeal
    of late--maybe not in vouge or trendy--but that would influence
    any decision on what type of house to build just in terms of resale
    anyway--i don't want this to be construde by anyone as an insult--just
    an observation....

Split level houses split along the long axis are a bitch to heat...  Unless the
construction totally closes one half off from the other, which makes the largest
possible room not too large, all the heat goes to the top level no matter how
much heat you pump into it...

Jim. 

    I don't believe the base note supplies enough information to even
    reply with a guess. I would think the /sq' estimates are close.
    
    One thing to consider though, I know of some folks who wished to
    be their own general contractor. Cost them upwards of $1200.00 for
    legal fees/license. Check with your local town. They know what they
    require.
    
    As for design of split vs ranch, depends on your needs, the
    neighborhood (what will it support), heating preference, lifestyle,
    mush haves, wants, etc...
    
    dana

    Well, thanks for the replies so far.  It will probably be a few
    weeks before we decide what to do.
    
    re .8  I know I didn't give much information in .0 but I was interested
    in getting a rough idea.  I'm planing on selling the house I own
    know and was curious to see if I could build for less than my net
    profit from the sale of my current house.  I haven't had it appraised
    yet but I'm quessing about an $80,000 profit after everything is
    payed off.
    
    chris d.

    
    Chris, I'm sure the IRS will be happy to hear of your gain ;).
    
    Charlie

    I'm not sure if this part of the tax law has changed for 1987, but
    previously, you could exclude from taxation any gains on the sale
    of one principal residence IF the entire profit was rolled into
    a new pricipal residence within either 18 or 24 months.
    
    This was called the
    
    CAPITAL GAINS EXCLUSION ON THE SALE/EXCHANGE OF PRINCIPAL RESIDENCE
    
    section of the tax code.
    
    And, as you go from one pricipal residence to the next, you continue
    to roll over old profits into the new residence, accumulating a
    tax liability you have to pay only when you want to (elevendy-seven
    years after I die, in my case).
    
    (When you chose to face up to the tax liabilities, you can then
    exclude 125,000$ of the accumulated gains.)
    
    But don't believe me. Ask your accountant or lawyer.

Yup, the capital gains exclusion is still there.  One hitch in it is that the 
new residence must be at least as expensive, or more expensive, than the 
previous one.  On any discrepancy, you must pay capital gains on the 
difference.  For example, suppose you bought a house for $100,000, and sold it 
again for $130,000, getting $30,000 profit.  You then buy a house for $115,000.
You have to pay capital gains on the $15,000 difference between the old house 
and the new one. 

And I also believe that to take the $125,000 one-time exclusion on that, you 
must be over a certain age, such as 55 or 60.

Paul

    I'm not too worried about the money.  .11 was right about turning
    it over into the net residence.  The rest can be put into mutual
    funds or whatever.  I'm going to ask my taxman what he thinks I
    should do with the extra money.  I'll also ask my mother - she works
    at the IRS.  She knows what can and cannot be taxed.
    
    chris d.
    
    p.s.  anyone have anything to say about the pre-fab homes?  I only
    know of one person who has one and he loves it.

One more note about capital gains:


There is NO requirement that you put any of the profit you receive on the
sale of the old house into the new house.  The only requirement is that the
new house cost more than the selling price of the old house.  


Mark

    
    I have a yet to be signed contract for the building of my house.
    For the most part it seems to be reasonable and accurate. However,
    I am questioning some of the items.
    
    The problem I see is that I have no basis to question the numbers
    on the paper. With no experience to back me up I am at the mercy
    of the builder. (FWIW, the builder has a very good rep and all we
    have talked to are very pleased with the houses built for them.)
    
    Any way to ballpark costs for the following using "standard units" 
    (cost/sq. ft., labor, etc.)?
    
    
    		Groundwork -
    			Stump and strip - ?
    			Cellar Hole	- ? (44x28 in my case)
    			Rough grade	- ?
    
                                 
    		Foundation - 
    			Footings and walls      - ?  (I know these are in
    			Floors			- ?   some of the foundation
    						      notes but in the
    						      interest of keeping
    						      it all in one note...)
    

       		Framing - 2x6 (in my case for a 3000+ sq. ft. house)
    			Labor 		- ?
    		    	Materials 	- ?
    		
		
    		Siding - Materials (rough cedar) and labor
                                            
    	
    		Insulation - 6" in walls
    			     9" in attic
    
    		Blueboard/1/8" Skimcoat - (I seem to remember a price/sheet
    					   given in an earlier note.)
    
    
    Obviously these estimates will vary by region, contractor, quality,
    etc. And they are all in this notes file somewhere. But they could
    provide a baseline for comparison. And having them all concentrated
    in this note would provide a quick lookup capability for costing
    a job.
    
    						Mark
    

    Can anyone give me some information on what would be a reasonable
    hourly rate to pay for carpentry services? By the hour?
    
    We are looking to hire part time (weekends only - we found someone)
    carpenter to work on our house. He works for a construction outfit
    during the week and is looking for supplementary income by moonlighting
    on weekends. We have no idea what a fair hourly wage would be to
    pay this person for his services. He has never worked for himself
    this way before and is not sure himself what to charge. If anyone
    has employed a carpenter on an hourly basis, I would appreciate
    any information you coulod provide.
    
    						Thanks, Art
    

    depends on his experience. i just completed building a house and
    paid the contractor and his helpers personally. i paid the contractor
    17.50/ hour. he not only did the carpentry work but hired the
    sub-contractors and coordinated the construction. his helpers were
    paid $5.00/hr. inexperienced workers did grunt work. $8.00 somewhat
    experienced worker, able to do certain unskilled things on his own.
    10.00/hr somewhat skilled, able to do most things on his own.

    	I just finished using a very experienced finish carpenter to
    complete my cabinet work. $20/ hr.
    
    	Used an excellent and experienced electrician too. Same rate.
    
    	I would say that a $20/ hr rate for experienced, quality craftsmen
    seems to be a standard. That's pretty much union scale. (no dedeuctions
    of course).
    
    Ken

    I would also agree with $20 I have a part time construction business
    on the weekends and evenings and that is my rate hourly.
    
    paul

    
    
      I think 20 bucks an hour is a little high for carpentry work.
    You should easily be able to find good help for 12 to 14 bucks.
    My brothers been in the business for years and says the cheaper
    help usually does better work. He states this because the cheaper
    help is trying to gets recognition and the big bucks guy is too
    busy talking himself up. Trade school student doe some real nice
    work also. I viewed a house these kids built and it was impressive.
    
    
    BAL 

    
    I think $20 an hour for a finishing carpenter is a fair price. As
    in a previous note I do a lot of cabinet work and finish work on
    the side and I usualy get around 20 an hour sometimes a little higher
    depending on the job.  If the type of work you are having done is
    rough i.e. framing etc, then 12-14 an hour is reasonable.
    
    	Don
    

    
    
      Rule of thumb for finish carpentry is $25.00 per rough opening.
    
      Residential up it to $30 - $35 per rough.
    
      Stairs bid seperatly.  
    
      This is in Mass, Southern N.H. and Southern Maine.
    
      Material not included in above price.
    
      NOTE: Please call a Finish Carpenter when you are dressing off
      your project, unless ofcourse you *really* know what your doing.
      A "butch" job will affect the value of your house.  More to the
      point, it will look like $&%t. 
    
      Rick.   _Who's_seen_framing_hammer_crosshatch_in_finish_before_
    

    
    	I don't know if this applies but is this guy contracting to
    you via his own business ie. accepting liabilities and paying
    his own insurance and taxes or is he working for you and your
    taking on all these responsibilities? That could make a big
    difference in price.

    
    -1 back has a good point that I forgot.
    
    Make sure you see an insurance certificate.  
    Unless you want to pay when he shoots a nail into his knee cap.
    or cuts a finger off.
    
    It might be a sad state of affairs when everyone is so worried 
    about becoming victim of a law suit, but that just seems to be
    the way it is for the time being.
    
    If you think this person is above all that your running quite a
    risk.  Believe me, when a finger drops to the floor, his opinion
    of *you* will change quick.  (aka; Nice house...I'll like it!)
    
    Rick.

    
>    Make sure you see an insurance certificate.  
>    Unless you want to pay when he shoots a nail into his knee cap.
>    or cuts a finger off.
    
When I took out insurance on my house it was in the process of being built.
Metropolitan put a rider on the policy to cover construction/personal
liability.  Cost about $3.00/year if I remember correctly.  I've forgotten
exactly what it was called, but that's what it was for.  My son built the
house and had no personal insurance.

We never had to use the coverage, thank Heaven.  He's certainly become a lot
more conservative than when he was young and we had to have a charge account
at the local emergency ward!!

Betty

    RE::.8
    
    	I checked with my lawyer today and he has told me that my home
    owners insurance will cover me for any injury incurred by someone
    emolyed by me. The only problem would be if I am found negligent
    in some way and that resulted in the injury. If the carpenter cuts
    off his thumb due to his own neglect I am ok. An example of my
    neglect would be if the floor is ready to collapse and I know it,
    but I do not warn him and he falls thru and gets injured. Just
    thought you would want this information and thanks for the warning.
    
    RE:: all others
    
    I have received a quote from one person at $10.00/hour. He feels
    that working with me and thinking of me as the foreman that he would
    be considered a skilled helper and that $10.00 is fair for this.
    I am talking to two other candidates and will report the outcome
    here next week for everyones interest.
    
    							Art
     

    The guy that I worked with last year charged about $24.00/hour.
    He was desperate to find somebody to work for him, and couldn't.
    According to him, anybody who was any good already had more than
    they could do, and the rest of them he wouldn't want to hire
    anyway.  And the ones he wouldn't think of hiring were wanting
    at least $15.00/hour just to drink coffee.  If you're talking
    prices in eastern Massachusetts, they're high right now.

    
    
     It's good that you checked with your insurance broker, better that
     you're covered.  
    
     The prices I gave you are for "finish carpentry". Nothing else.
    As Steve just mentioned, there's alot of work around right now.
    I don't want to sound negative, but those who can frame do not
    necessarily know how to do finish work.  (I realize that's a general
    statement and probably not fair, but there are some who think if
    they can cut a 2x4, they can finish off stairs.)  
    
     When it comes time to finish off the job, (or prior) ask to see
    some examples of his/her work.  If you see a quality associated
    with fine furniture building, than you have the right person.
    
     I can suggest people for you in the Nashua, Lowell area. 
    
     Rick.  _Who_once_ruined_a_$300_piece_of_Oak_with_one_*little*_tap_

    I received my second quote today; also $10.00. I guess I haven't
    mentioned the area I live in and this could be a factor. I live
    in Barre, Mass. For those of you unaware of Barre's (pronounced
    like BARRY) location, it is Nortwest of Worcester next door to the
    Quabbin Reservoir (in the boonies). We are looking for people willing
    to work Saturday and/or Sunday and both quotes are for those days.
    Both individuals are looking for supplemental income and work for
    contractors during the week. One admittedly has not done much finish
    work and the other is a foreman who has done so. I may hire one
    person for rough and another for finish.
    
    We have one more to talk to and this one sounds the best yet. He
    is 63 years young, with years of experience behind him in both rough
    and finish work. He appologized for his age, but little did he know
    that his age is a positive to me not a negative. He just completed
    refurbishing an 1830s house. I hope to see the work he did as a
    result of his interview. He will be slower in actual work (his words),
    but I believe his experience will make up for that. Besides, I will
    be doing the bull work for him anyway. It will be interesting to
    see what his quote will be. Stay tuned Monday for results!
    
    							Art
    

    Well, number three was a bust! He quoted $16/hour which was not
    unreasonable per notes here for his experience, but he did NOT want
    to work weekends! This was really interesting since the advertisement
    he answered was for weekend work. I guess he figured we would meet
    him, find him Mr. Wonderful and let him work during the week because
    we wouldn't want to pass him by. He also told me a story that made
    me very nervous; one morning while eating breakfast he decide to
    remodel his house and as soon as he finished eating he took out
    a hammer and tore down his bath/kitchen. This fellow is unpredictable!
    Can you see us letting him work during the week and coming home
    to find he did something we had not planned on?
    
    All of this made us a little worried, as we discovered while discussing
    his visit afterward, but the real kicker I discovered while finishing
     up my conversation with him while standing next to his truck. I
    was pretty close to him and the aroma of beer was quite heavy and
    there was an empty bear can on the cab floor. Now anyone who drinks
    beer before 9:00 AM on Saturday morning while driving to a job
    interview to me spells trouble with a capital T!
    
    We have settled on quote number 1 after a followup discussion. He
    is willing to do what needs to be done without concern for the type
    of work even if it isn't purely carpentry in nature. He is even
    willing to help me dig the foundation trench by hand if necessary.
    As long as he knows how to do whatever it is that comes up, he is
    willing to do it. He sounds too good to be true. We'll give him
    a try and keep you posted. !st day of work is this Saturday.
    
    							Art
    

We're considering building a new house in Acton assuming that we can
afford to complete, to some degree, what we will be starting.  Previous
replies to this note leaves a lot of disparity in costs.  What we like
to build is a 38x28 full dormer cape, with a 18x20 enclosed breezeway
(family room), and a 20x24 two car garage (off breezeway).  Three large
bedrooms up with two baths.  Living room, dining room, kitchen, half bath and
laundry room down and full basement.  We will leave the fourth bedroom over the
garage unfinished for now.  We would like to have tile floors (kitchen/front
entrance), nice appliances, etc.

My budget after the land is paid for is only 140-150K.  There is town water
and septic is private.  Am I crazy to consider building a house like the
above?  We know some good tradesmen that could complete some of requirements
(plumb,electric,carpentry).  For heating, I would like to have a heatpump.

Your knowledge and experience would be helpful in making this decision.
                  

    
    	There are a couple of notes that discuss the virtues and trials
    	of building ones' own house, although I don't remember which
    	ones they are.  Check the directory listings and if that fails
    	perhaps Mr. Weiss could direct you.  When you find them, read
    	them well.

We are considering building a new house.  I have found a building lot and
have provided two builders with our house plans.  Both builders have
submitted building prices which seem competitive.  They are:

       Main box:  42x28 (Living room, dining room, kitchen, open foyer,
                         three bedrooms, two full and one half baths)

                  Total sq feet 2352 @ $50.00 sq.ft = $117,600

       Attached
       Family Rm  20x24 (Cathedral Ceiling)

                  Total sq feet  480 @ $34.00 sg ft =  $15,360

       Garage     20x28 (unfinished room over garage - future master bed)

                  Total sq feet  560 @ $34.00 sq ft =  $19,040

       Total                    3392                = $152,000

       House is 2x6 construction, Anderson quality windows, FHA heating,
       50 gal oil hot water, 200 amp service, ext clapboard, 6 skylights,
       driveway, sprinkler system, lawn & plantings.  Living room and
       dining room to be hardwood floors.  Carpet allowance of 16.00 per
       sq yard.  Blueboard and skim coat. 6,000 allowance on kitchen
       cabinets.  Bathroom and hallway to be tiled. 2,000 
       allowance on lighting fixtures.  All sinks, johns, and vanities
       included. Two fireplaces.

       The septic system will cost $7,700.  Land clearing and excavation
       is 7,000.  House will need a well, cost ????.

       Grand total $152,000
                      7,700
                      7,000
                      2,500 (estimated well cost)
                   --------
                   $169,200

       After we pay for the land, we only have $170,000 budgeted for
       for completing the house.  I have some extra for emergencies.
       My questions are: are the above prices reasonable, and, how much
       should I allow for any discrepancies in costs.  I can't start this
       without finishing it in order to convert to a regular mortgage.
       My Realtor says that these costs are too low.  What do the experts
       think?

       If we want to cut back on costs, what items can be postponed until
       later on?

    
    re.  .18
    Where are you?  I had an addition put up 2 years ago, and it was
    $50/sq. ft NOT INCLUDING cabinets, vanities, johns, lites, etc.
    so, unless you are building in the boonies, I would expect more
    like $70.  or more like $90 if its in Boston.
    
    Just my guess.
    

    Drill the well first - $2,500 is probably a good guess, but there's
    always a chance that you'll end up with a $9,000 well, or maybe
    no water at all at 600' and have to give up.
    
    There's all kinds of ways to postpone costs.  Landscaping comes
    last anyway, and if you're running short of money you can live
    with rocks and weeds for a while.  Personally I'd never put in
    a sprinkler system anyway -- a perfect lawn doesn't mean that
    much to me.
    You can postpone carpeting and hardwood floors, and get by on the
    plywood subfloor for a while.
    You can have the framing done for the skylight openings, but don't have
    them put in yet and save roughly 6 x $350, probably.  Installing
    them later will mean slightly more danger of leaks -- the time
    to put in skylights is when you're shingling the roof -- but it
    can be done.
    And on and on.  

    To update  this  a  bit,  we're getting quotes of $20/hr. for some
    house  repairs  we  need done. Several people have given the same
    quote, so I guess that's the current standard.

--David

On the detached garage addition that I just had done, the contractor
billed carpenter's labor at $20, unskilled labor at $15, and his own
labor at $25.  However, the job went over budget and he gave me a
break on the labor charge, so I hope those aren't the amounts he 
actually paid his workers.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

        I'm looking at buying a piece of land and a foundation/shell, and
        completing  the  balance  with sub-contractors or a builder.  I'm
        trying to  come  up  with a very rough guess before checking with
        contractors,  etc.   Here  is  some  info.    The  foundation  is
        complete, all the framing  is  complete, and the shell is covered
        with  plywood, roof is completed.    No  electrical.    plumming,
        windows, doors, sheetrock, fixtures, etc.  The house is 3800+ sf,
        lg kitchen, 3 baths. lots of wndows, skylights, etc.
        
        I've seen may guestimages as to sf costs.   However,  I dont have
        the slighest idea on what percentages  might  cover the framming,
        roof, foundation, etc.   I would guess somwhere around 15% or so.
        Which means that I should figure about $60-$65/sf or so to finish
        the house (around $240Kish).  By  finish,  I would assume move in
        condition, carpets, fixtures, appliances, etc (no landscaping).
        
        Am I  in the ball  park?   Any other  breakdowns or figures that
        are more accurate that I should be considering?
      

    
      Where is this place located? If it is anywhere near a 40 mile radius
    of Bolton mass. you could give this guy a call and he can give you an 
    estimate to do the whole job. He is the contractor doing my 2nd story
    addition. He has done an excellent job on our place. It doesn't cost
    anything for the phone call or estimate.
    
      Ken Janda 
      (508)779-5008
    
     I don't think that your figures of $65 a sq. ft are to out of line
    unless you plan to get elaborate (marble tile baths and fireplaces,
    all hardwood trim, etc.) ADD $$$$ for landscaping and furniture ect.
    etc., etc.,etc and you are quickly to the $100 sq ft price. 
     Call this guy, he is one of the most reasonable around.
    

    
>      Where is this place located? If it is anywhere near a 40 mile radius
>    of Bolton mass. you could give this guy a call and he can give you an 
>    estimate to do the whole job. He is the contractor doing my 2nd story
>    addition. He has done an excellent job on our place. It doesn't cost
>    anything for the phone call or estimate.
    
    Its in Westford Ma, and just around the corner from LKG :-)  I may
    give him a call. I am just looking for a rough guess before I start
    calling contractors, etc.
       
>     I don't think that your figures of $65 a sq. ft are to out of line
>    unless you plan to get elaborate (marble tile baths and fireplaces,
>    all hardwood trim, etc.) ADD $$$$ for landscaping and furniture ect.
>    etc., etc.,etc and you are quickly to the $100 sq ft price. 
>     Call this guy, he is one of the most reasonable around.
    
    Nothing very elaborate, but all high quality stuff. I have a seperate
    figure for landscaping, decorating, etc.
    
    I've asked a few other people, and they all seem to agree that $65 sf
    is about right. It seems that its in the ball park, and worth pursuing
    further. I'll be talking with the owner, then probably calling some
    contractors, etc.
    
    	Thanks..
    
    

    re .last few
    If the shell is complete (sounds like no windows or siding tho), I'd
    say you're looking at much less than $65.00/sq ft to complete it.
    What about water and sewer? What is needed, and what is done?
    Leaving those out, I'd say your looking at more like $45-50.00 per
    to complete it - maybe less if you sub it out yourself.
    I'd get a few GC's to give you completed prices, then go after
    some subs to find out what each line item will cost you. Ask
    yourself if the difference is worth it.
    
    John

    
    Great. I wanted to estimate high, so that I wont be surprized when I
    get the GC or subs estimates. If it would come in lower than 200K I'd
    be pleased.
    
    It would need a well, and septic. I would probably have a GC do all the
    dry wall, plumming, electrical, flooring (except carpeting), heat/air
    cond, windows, doors, and septic. I'd take care of the finish work with
    subs like cabinets, fixtures, carpeting, finish moldings, bathrooms,
    paint, etc. I'd also handle the well and hook ups. Although, this may
    change depending on when it needs to be done in the finishing cycle,
    etc.
    
    I'd just like to have a GC do the areas that I dont know enough about,
    and concentrate on the areas that I feel I can handle.  Since we wont
    have any bank financing involved, it also allows me to take my time,
    without worrying about hitting their milestones, etc. We will also be
    keeping our present house, so we also have a place to live. While I'm
    not looking at a long time, it helps to have time available when you
    are doing something for the first time. Take the time and do it right,
    no rush, no pressure..
    
    The reason for the split, is that I'd like to do it all, but dont have
    the expertise. This allows me to do a lot of work, and have someone
    else do what I dont feel qualified in doing. I have no problems with
    putting together a kitchen or bath from scratch, but have some problems
    estimating what raw materials are needed, when they need to be there,
    etc, etc, (ie, lumber, dry wall, windows, doors, plumming materials,
    etc) for all the contractors to do their work. It also helps to have
    someone knowledgable around to handle problems in areas that I am not
    familiar with. 
    
    Thanks for all your help...
    

    re: .25 and scheduling
    A lot depends, I think, on how fast you want the whole project to go.
    If you can live with scheduling with waits in between subcontractors,
    then it's a lot easier than trying to orchestrate 15 subs to do
    everything in precisely the right order in precisely the right
    amount of time at the precisely the right time so the whole thing
    can be wrapped up in two weeks.   I've been getting a room redone,
    partially by myself and partially by hiring others, for about 6
    months now.  It's finally done, but I started out with the carpenter,
    then waited a while for a guy to sandblast the old beams, then the
    carpenter again, then waited a while until the plasterer could do 
    his thing, then back to the carpenter again, then waited quite a
    while for a painter to show up (which was basically a bad idea as
    I could have done a better job, but I didn't want to take my free time
    to do it).  I suppose I could have hired a general contractor who
    could have gotten a crew together and ripped through the whole job
    in a week, but this way I got it done exactly as I wanted it (more
    or less) and probably cheaper.
    Since this was a room that we've basically never used except as a
    repository for stuff that wouldn't go anyplace else, it wasn't much
    of a hardship to spend 6 months or so on the job.  If you're trying 
    to get a house done to live in, there may be much more time pressure.

    
    We're getting ready to start construction on a family room addition.
    We had gotten quotes for the work in August of last year, but for a 
    variety of reasons, decided to wait until spring to start construction.
    We've been having everyone update their prices - all the quotes have 
    stayed the same, except for the materials.  We'd gotten a quote from
    Wachusett Lumber in August.  Yesterday my husband spoke with Mike
    Wallace there about updating the pricing, and he was told that prices
    have increased 40-45% since August!  He said it's due in part to all
    the disasters (hurricanes, etc) using up the supplies for rebuilding, 
    and also that they're shutting down parts of the forests out west, so
    there's less of a supply of lumber.
    
    Has any one else heard of such huge increases in building materials? 
    We've done lots of business with WL in the past, and I'd like to
    believe their story, but I'm having a hard time swallowing (and paying
    for) the price increase!
    
    Just curious...
    -Lynne
    

    The increase is real......got to save the spotted owls you know!
    
    Maybe now people will start putting humans first, instead of animals.
    
    Marc H.

    
      Just heard on the news the other day that building material prices
    have risen 'as much as 80%'. That's a LOT. Yuck. I have a garage to
    build!
    
    				Kenny

Part of the rise in price is due to the huge demand for materials to rebuild
in South Florida after Hurricane Andrew.  Though the lumber companies like
to blame environmentalists, there's really very little effect from new
regulations.  The major cause is a ramp-down in production over the past
few years that results in shortages when the demand suddenly jumps.

			Steve

    My brother-in-law is a carpenter out in Washington state and I talked 
    to him last night. He says that they also are facing the increase of 
    up to 65% for lumber and it is because of the spotted owl issues.
    
    My porch has gone up that much more.

    
    
    ....Supply and demand.....  And a little red tape...
    
    It might be wise to get what you need now if your going
    to start building in the spring...
    
    

It has almost nothing to do with owls - spotted or no.  Lumber is a commodity
and is subject to supply and demand.  Due to increased building - and to some
extent - natural disasters the prices have gone up.  It is always best to build
a house during a recession/depression.  Labor and materials are cheaper.

If you want to follow the price fluctuations, plywood is traded on one of the
commodity markets.  You can check prices for the period in question.

Stan

    I was just charged $3 each for 8' 2x4s (admittedly this was full retail
    since I only bought 6, but still...).
    
    But never fear, while the price may be high, at least the quality
    still sucks.  I could easily lift them three-at-a-time in one hand,
    and maybe I'll save wear and tear on my hammer by pushing the nails
    in with my hands.
    

Quanity does not seem to matter.  $2.99 was what I was quoted three weeks ago
and I was getting ~175.  I went to 2x4x88" which where $1.90 piece (different
supplier).

I was also told that the price was still going up.  The first place asked if I
could wait a few months - he expected the price to drop a bit.

bjm

There was an article about this in The Boston Globe late last week {Fri, Sat,
or Sun. I can't remember which since I read them all at the same time}
In summary, it said what has been said here.

	o - up to 100% increase in lumber prices 

	o - disasters are part of it.

	o - environmental shutdowns are the other.

							Mark

    Its nice to say that its not due to the owl..but...the truth is that
    various environmental rulings have significantly raised the price of
    lumber. Thats a fact that has been mentioned in many different
    newspaper/mag. articles.
    
    I , for one, don't like it one bit. 
    
    Marc H.

re .9:

I read what I think was the same article, and I came away with a different
list of causes.  At the top of the list were disasters and additional
building activity fueled by an improved economy (I'm not sure where!),
and at the bottom of the list was environmental regulations.

I don't know who to believe on this, since everybody seems to have an
axe to grind.  It's even conceivable to me that the lumber producers
are artificially raising prices (i.e. price fixing) so they can blame
the environmentalists.

    The amount of acreage involved in the flap about the spotted owl 
    habitat is/was 1400 acres.  How many board feet is the lumber 
    industry claiming they could get off that 1400 acres, anyway?
    Bush/Quale et al claimed that "39,000 jobs would be lost" if those
    1400 acres weren't harvested.  Excuse me.  Two guys cleared about
    40 acres of forested land behind my house in about two weeks.  At
    that rate, 1400 acres of land would keep two guys working for only a
    little over a year...and those guys were a low budget chain saw and 
    one log skidder operation.  How long do you think it would take truly
    professional loggers to clear 1400 acres?  Say 1 dozen loggers 6
    months, since we're talking about some really big timber.
    Then add in a couple of people at the sawmill, a couple of truckers,
    a few people at lumberyards...does that add up to 39,000 jobs and
    enough lumber to make a significant dent in the nation's supply?
    No way.  It's easy to bash "tree huggers" and the spotted owl, but
    the numbers just don't add up...at least the numbers touted by Bush
    and Quayle.
    

    Didn't they also recently discover Taxol, a promising treatment for
    cancer in the Pacific Yew.  It grows in the North East region, but is
    normally cut & burned (wasted) during the logging process?  
    
    Makes you think....
    
    Colin
    

    I can attest to the increased prices.  I started an addition in October
    which is when they started to go up (after the hurricane in Florida).
    Thankfully, I had bought the bulk of material then, because every time
    I went back to pick up some 2x's the prices were getting out of
    control.  
    
    I really lucked out when I bought every last foot of a local lumber
    company's belly band casing.  He hadn't increased the price of his
    existing stock like the Somerville's, etc. commonly do.  Somerville
    Lumber and Home Depot's price was .75/ft. more expensive.
    
    					Steve

>             <<< Note 4887.1 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT "I'm the NRA" >>>
>    The increase is real......got to save the spotted owls you know!
>    Maybe now people will start putting humans first, instead of animals.
    
	    Humans are causing the problems because humans tend to be
	greedy and selfish.  Those hundreds of acres of land the timber
	barons want to get their greedy hands on are $$$ in their eyes
	and nothing more.  They could give a $#!+ how many jobs are created
	or how many creatures are driven to extinction.	    
	    
					Tim

    
    And, what does the lumber industry plan to do if they are allowed to
    mow down the last of the old growth forest? Soon they'll have the same set
    of problems they do now, only the forest (and its biodiversity) will be
    gone.
    
    JP

    
    Wow - I'm sorry to see my basenote fears being confirmed!
    
    We haven't gotten the updated quote yet, so I'm wondering - should 
    we expect to see the increase across the board (lumber, doors &
    windows, etc.) or just in the lumber?   I know the forest issue
    wouldn't affect things besides wood, but have the disasters affected
    the supply and cost of other building supplies too?
    
    -Lynne

    RE: .15
    
    Nice comment...but....*I* am going to suffer when the projects *I*
    build for my home this year cost more. 
    
    Maybe you think thats O.K....since *I* am definitly a greedy and
    selfish human???
    
    Talk about the timber barons sounds great, until you realize it will
    impact you..directly. Oh....lets just pass another law..eh?
    
    The increase is a serious problem for me.
    
    Marc H.

    >> The increase is a serious problem for me.
    
    I suspect you would find an uninhabitable earth an even more serious 
    problem.  
    

    RE: .19
    
    Again, nice, universal response....but....do you really think that
    your comment is an accurate statement? Do you really think that the
    lumber companies can't harvest wood from the land and replant in a 
    responsible manner? What *real* evidence do you have that the lumber
    companies were not operating in a responsible manor?
    
    Or....do you just belive the moranic chants from the tree-huggers
    like..."gee we have got to save the planet because...its...all we
    have!(insert appropriate face showing light bulb now lit).
    
    I give up....
    
    Marc H.

Hello, moderators?  Could you urge a little restraint here?  I'm sure none of
us wants to see HOME_WORK become another SOAPBOX.

    Look at the bright side.  Lumber went down the max allowed on the
    commodity exchange yesterday.  Of course this was from the recent
    highs.
    
    -Joe

    Re: .21
    
    Sure...I'm gone.
    
    Marc H.

    
    	It amazes me how this discussion is focusing in on the spotted owl
    issue which, from what I understand, takes a very tiny percentage of
    the forest out of the hands of the lumber companies.  I see a much
    greater cause-and-effect relationship in the lumber prices going
    through the roof (pun intended) right after the hurricane rebuilding
    started which likewise threw the demand side of the old supply/demand
    curve way up.  This is free market capitalism at work.  From a
    purchaser's perspective, though, sometimes "capitalism at work" means
    having to pay more for something when other people want that same thing.
    Such is capitalism.
    
    							-craig

    Lynne,
    
    I'm not sure about windows, but, yes the price of doors has gone up.
    
    					Steve

    
    What's the price of steel studs usually?  Perhaps these are not prone
    to the "lumber shortage" price rise.
    
    Colin
    

If lumber goes up, and demand shifts to steel studs, they'll go up too.

    I was told this weekend that the price of lumber will be going up even
    more in the very near future...20-50% more.  This sounds ridiculous to
    me, has anyone else heard anything?
    
    I have great concern since we are planning to start building our new
    home in early May.  These escalating prices could kill our dream
    though!

We finished our first floor last year, and we are finishing the second floor
this year.  I was suprised to find some materials cheaper than last year:

Brass door handles
Toilet
Fiberglass shower stall
Wall-to-wall carpet

If only we had known! :-)

Elaine

To add a bit of data to the discussion...

One of the problems with both lumber prices and lumber quality is that
the old high quality lumber was all from old growth forests.  In fact,
post and beam construction *requires* 200+ year old trees.  Part of
the reason for changing from post and beam to stud framing was to
allow use of smaller pieces of wood (from younger trees).  Part of the 
reason for the change from balloon framing to platform framing was to
allow building with shorter pieces of lumber, cut from shorter (younger)
trees.  Part of the reason for the current change from solid wood to
engineered materials is... you guessed it, to get around the problem
that there just aren't that many large old trees any more, and wood
from the younger trees isn't very high quality.

Europe and England had this problem years ago, with most of their
forest areas being cut down to clear land for fields and pastures.
People in the old country couldn't believe the profligacy of the American
emmigrants that we actually built *fences* out of *wood*!  These days,
lots of European countries limit the use of wood in buildings based
on fire safety arguments.  But the real reason that they shifted over
to mostly masonry construction was that there simply wasn't enough wood.

One of the problems in the Pacific Northwest is that the lumber inudstry
makes far less money when they harvest the younger trees, and their mills
are correspondigly mostly set up to harvest old growth.  The lumber
companies *could* replant in a sustainable fashion, that is, so that there
will, every year, be as many trees reaching maturity as they replant.
However, most of the big lumber companies don't do that.  Furthermore, 
the most common harvesting method is "clear cutting", which clears out
everything, including all of the trees they just dump, and leaves a
wasteland.  Sure, the land recovers in time (provided there isn't too much
erosion), but it increases even further the time until that area can be
logged again.  There was one lumber comapny (I forget which one) that
practiced partial cutting and only harvested at the rate that trees
became mature, but sombody set up a hostile takeover on the grounds that
they could be a lot more profitable by clear cutting old growth at the
fastest rate the mills could stand, so they are like the others now.

So what is the lumber industry's solution to this problem?  Change over
their mills to deal with younger growth instead of old growth?  No!
Set up factories to recycle white paper and newsprint instead of
making it from virgin wood?  No!  Their solution is to insist that they
ought to be allowed to cut down the last of the old growth forests,
destroying their ecosystems in the process, and (incidentally) continue
taking lumber from federal lands at a fraction of its value, and not
try to deal with any of the underlaying issues until there aren't any
old growth forests left.  And, oh yes, confuse the issue by blaming all 
of their problems on the spotted owl.

Well, sooner or later (and not that much later) they are going to have
to face their problems.  The lumber industry has been losing jobs for a
long time -- this isn't the result of recent environmental legislation.
Funny, though, schools in the Pacific Northwest are still training kids to
be lumberjacks, in spite of the overall loss of jobs in the industry.  

Now, I'm sorry that somebody has to pay more to build a porch.  I'm sorry
that *I'll* have to pay more for the next wood I buy.  I'm also sorry
that sewer users in greater Boston have to pay for cleaning up Boston 
Harbor.  But it's a fact that sooner or later, in one way or another,
environmental destruction has to be paid for.  The bill is cheaper if
we pay as we go, instead of waiting until their is a crisis so great
that it cannot be ignored, and then try to deal with it.  Therefore, it
is my personal opinion that we ought to pay as we go, and use our
limited natural resources in sustainable ways.  This is apparently not 
an opinion shared by the lumber industry.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Why does post and beam construction require that the trees be 200 years old?

    re .31
    
    I'd assume that it takes that long for a tree to be large enough to
    supply a beam needed for a post and beam house.
    
    
    Brian
    
    ps.  If you've never been to the Mill it's a treat to see the size of
    some of those beams.
    

re .31, .32:  Yeah, I recently moved to the Mill myself, and it's an
incredible environment.  Incredibly inconvenient in some ways, but I'm
still amazed when I look up from my office and see the array of what
looks like 2'x2'x16' beams holding up the ceiling.  

	Larry

    Last time I entered replies in here...people called for the moderator
    to stop the discussion, claiming that the forum turned into "sapbox".
    Has the forum turned back again to "sapbox", or is it just when a
    different point of view is entered from the standard "environmental"
    point of view?
    
    Marc H.

    re .30
    
    I can't comment on your analysis of lumber industry tactics, but a
    minor comment on balloon framing - balloon framing is no longer done
    in many locales because it is against building codes - I don't
    believe the length of the studs (18' vs 8') is an issue, even with
    "new growth trees".
    
    I believe the reason it is against many current building codes is
    because fire spreads upwards much more quickly in balloon framing.
    

    
     Increases in wood prices will probably make 'artifical wood' products more
    competitive. Aluminum and steel prices are at all time lows due to
    massive recovery through recycling and a sluggish economy. Also plastic
    lumber may become viable alternatives if wood prices increase. If wood 
    continues to increase in cost and metal supplies become more plentiful,
    couldn't a metal 2x4 become a competitive  alternative.
    
     Last year at this time scrap paper markets were glutted, and the
    future of paper recycling looked dim. Now there is actually a strong
    demand for scrap paper. (maybe wood that was being made into paper is
    now fetching a better price as lumber stock ?)
    
    Bob

Re: .32

Well, we are finishing up our post and beam log home, built from all native 
timber.  My husband has been in the Massachusetts logging industry for sixteen
years.  While there are no original growth forests in the state, thanks to the
colonists, there are several well-managed forests.  This means they are 
selectively cut.  The results are some beautiful woodlands.  It was from these
woodlands that he cut our 16 x 20" x 20' main carrying beams.  Note, too. that
these were ungraded native spruce, so they are over-engineered by 60%.

I will grant that Massachusetts does not have enough forest land to support an
entire timber industry.  But I've seen what careful forest management can do,
and I'm a big fan of it.  I know a small family mill that could keep several
local builders supplied with pine finish boards, working part time.  This is only
one of many.

And you don't need old growth for post and beam!

Elaine

re .34:

My understanding was that soapbox-like flames are no longer wanted in this 
reply stream (indeed, I personally don't like to see them anywhere in this
file) but that thoughtful analysis with DATA is still welcome.  Note that
all of my reply except for a couple of lines at the end was data.  Please 
feel free to cite data of your own to refute mine if you believe that I was
incorrect (as .37 did).  My one opinion in that long reply (that I think we 
should pay for environmental damage as we go, instead of ignoring problems 
until there is a costly crisis) was, I thought, quite moderately phrased.
I am sorry if it was offensive -- that was not my intent.


re .37:

Great!  I'm impressed that you got a 16"x20"x20' main carrying beams out
of post-colonial regrowth.  Of course, a lot of the regrowth in New
England dates back to the mid to late 1800s, when the prarie land was
being given away for a song and the mass exodus out of New England farming
started (or I suppose I should say, gained pace).  So even New England
trees can be >100 years old.

I agree with you 100% that careful forest managent (including selective 
cutting) is a good thing -- it combines the goal of making good use of the
trees with the goal (not shared by everyone) of making the lumber industry
sustainable.  What worries me is unsustainable lumber practices.


re .whatever:

As the owner of a ballon framed house, I'm aware that there are fire
advantages to putting blocking between the floors, which platform
framing achieves without extra steps.  Also, platform framing is a
better mass-production method than balloon framing, since the second
floor walls can be assembled on the second floor deck.  However, I also
believe that it is true that platform framing was developed, in part,
because of the need to use less long (e.g. 16' or longer) lumber.
I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.  As with masonry
construction practices in Europe, the reasons why something is continued
are not always the reasons why it got started in the first place.


	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Speaking as a non-American, I can say that I am continuously surprised
    at the incredibly cheap prices quoted in this file for timber.
    
    In Australia, it is no longer possible to get timber over 10" * 3" as a
    stock item - it has to be milled to order and is very expensive. I just
    bought some to match a piece of timber originally in our house and paid
    the equivalent of $US2200 per cubic metre. It was a piece of 12" * 6" 
    oregon pine, 2.2 metres long - this is locally plantation grown. Looking 
    at the growth rings, I'd say I got the whole log, and it probably came 
    from a tree around 20" in diameter and approximately 80 years old.
    
    I was recently quoted $AUS18.00 a metre for 250mm by 25mm Californian
    Redwood - or roughly $US13.00.
    
    Just as an aside, a 20" by 16" spruce beam would seem to come from a
    log around 28 - 30" in diameter, indicating a tree 140 - 170 years
    old?
    
    Laminated beams are becoming very popular here, as are steel framed
    houses. Sounds like what we all need is hormone growth therapy for
    trees, similar to that for cows, pigs, chickens and athletes! There is
    a Japanese patent for microwaving and squeezing logs to turn them
    square - saves more than 50% of the milling waste.
    
    regards,                                          
    Michael Watts.

    As an aside, for the past few years or so, major league baseball
    players have had problems with the wood used to make bats.  I think it
    might be ash but I'm not positive.  Anyway, it's due to the lack of
    good quality timber in the U.S.  
    
    Louisville, Hillerich & Bradsby, etc. have had to get their wood from 
    Canada, just as we in the northeast do.
    
    					Steve

    
    -1
    
    You mean we can kiss our ash goodbye?
    
    re .30
    
    It's true what you say.
    
    As recently as 1700 large lowland areas of Wales (my homeland) were
    covered in old woodland.  The predominant local building materials are
    brick, stone and slate, which are also locally abundant.   Wood never
    made a good building material in such a wet climate, so there was
    little demand on the forests for building materials - except for span
    timbers which as you say, generally come from older trees. The
    predominant energy source was coal (and lately, nuclear and HEP).  The
    forest was not required much for fuel due to the low population
    density.  
    
    In spite of this, much of the old woodland is now gone - cleared for
    agriculture, export or other land use.  Most of Western Europe is
    oversupplied with food so the farms now have to be subsidised to
    produce food we don't need. 
    
    The "timber barons" sold the government on buzz phrases like "two trees
    planted for every one cut down" and "managed woodlands".  What we got
    were vast monocultures of closely planted, uniform fir that was best
    suited for mechanised logging.   Even with mechanisation the logging
    process is very wasteful, leaving many tonnes of wood to rot and
    release C02 into the atmosphere that would otherwise be locked into
    plant life, while simultaneously taking away the CO2 sink that the
    forest provides.  (If you want to talk to a people REALLY worried about
    global warming, ask the Dutch - who stand to lose large portions of
    their low-lying country to the North Sea.)
    
    If you take a walk in these `woods', they are devoid of animal and
    birds, have no variety/diversity of undergrowth, so several other
    woodland plant species have gone too.  No-one really knows what we
    actually lost in plant and animal life but several once-common species
    are now comparatively rare.

    The knock-on effects on the ecosystem are still being felt from this
    strategy.  For example, the lack of a habitat for insect predators
    meant that the elm bark beetle could take out many of the remaining
    elms unopposed.  There is also a huge problem where by the acid runoff
    from decomposing pine needles has severely damaged the trout fishing
    industry and affected the water supply.

    The way I see it is, you have a beautiful, relatively unspoiled country
    here in the US, and if the only way to preserve it is to "pass another
    law" then believe me - it's worth it.  If wood costs more because of
    that law then it *IS* part of the supply and demand process - the
    Earth's ability to supply against our infinite wants.  You can have it
    all now for cheap if you want but like Iacocca (pillar of capitalism)
    said "you pay now or you pay later".
    
    From my perspective wood us very cheap here.
    
    Colin
    
    

    RE: .38
    
    Well Larry,
     I have to say that I find that when I present an alternate reply, the
    comments are to stop making the file like soapbox....but....likewise
    others here can paint a broad brush against the lumber industry,i.e.
   " they clear cut the forests and make it a wasteland ". I am just asking
    for either a balance in the replies, or remove *ALL* offending material
    and make this file strictly business. 
    
    I personaly like a little "give and take"...it helps with a high stress
    job, and I do learn from the comments.
    
    By the way, I have personally visited "clear cut" area's....they
    replant trees. Also, the native Indians in New England use to annually
    burn large areas of the land to help in their hunting of animals.
    The burning promoted the regrowth of small trees and bushes to attract
    the deer....later food. The burning also didn't bother the very large
    trees. My point? The land here in New England has *ALWAYS* been farmed
    or effected by mankind. Cutting down and planting trees in not new.
    
    Marc H.

    
    > My point? The land here in New England has *ALWAYS* been farmed
    >or effected by mankind. Cutting down and planting trees in not new.
     
Marc, I think the land was here a wee bit before humans came on the scene. ;-)

Brian

    RE: .43
    
    Well sure Brian...change *ALWAYS* to *has been for a long time*.
    Besides finding a "nit" what do you think?
    
    Marc H.

            <<< Note 4887.42 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT "I'm the NRA" >>>
    	Also, the native Indians in New England use to annually
    burn large areas of the land to help in their hunting of animals.
    The burning promoted the regrowth of small trees and bushes to attract
    the deer....later food. The burning also didn't bother the very large
    trees. My point? The land here in New England has *ALWAYS* been farmed
    or effected by mankind. Cutting down and planting trees in not new.
    
	   It is known that clear cutting tends to do more permanent	
	damage to forests than forest fires (natural or manmade).  The
	erosion resulting from clear cutting is more sever and recovery 
	much more difficult.  And as you stated, "The burning doesn't 
	bother the very large trees."  It actually gives them more room
	for even stronger growth.

					Tim

    This issue is relevant to the subject of the notesfile and seems
    completely appropriate.  I don't agree with Marc H. on conservation
    issues much, but while he has strong opinions, he doesn't appear to
    have been flaming and he is right about a double standard being applied.
    
    Having said that, I believe that the purpose of the endangered species
    act is not just to save the spotted owl.  A threat to the survival of a
    rare species is considered an alarm or warning that a local ecosystem
    is in danger.  If spotted owls can't live, then other life-forms are
    that much closer to being threatened.
    
    Another observation:  When an industry complains of being burdened with
    excessive environmental regulation, they may be right, but it seems
    much more likely that the industry has been passing the costs of
    environmental protection on to the public in the form of waste and
    pollution and that the purpose of the regulation is to force that
    industry and its customers to pay the cost directly rather than having
    all of us pay it indirectly.  In other words, uncontrolled pollution
    and waste is a tax on the public levied by private institutions.
     

    RE: .46
    
    Agree with you...100%.
    
    Marc H.

    
    I don't mean to de-rail the current conversation, but I thought I'd
    update my basenote, in case anybody was wondering what the actual
    price differences were:
    
    Framing materials increased 36%.  However, included in this increase
    was  an increase in room-size from 18x18 to 18x20, so that would
    account for a little bit of the increase.
    
    Doors & windows increased only 7%.
    
    All in all, not great news, but not as bad as it could have been.
    
    These increases are compared with prices in August 1992, in central
    Mass.
    
    -Lynne
    
    

I talked to a builder in Hudson, NH this past weekend.  He said material
costs have gone up $3,000 over last year.  The houses he is selling go
in the $120K to $130K price range.

On the other hand,  land costs have dropped from $45K a lot 2 years ago
to $25K a lot.

Garry

Another data point:

2 months ago,  a 2x4x8 at Home Depot went for $1.69.

Now it's priced at $2.59.

Garry

    
     My builder, who for many different reasons has not signed the P&S yet,
    has just informed me that the house I want to build will now cost $7500
    more. 
    
    HELP !!!!!
    
     I read an article in the Wall Street Journal on friday about the
    futures market on lumber. The price went from $250/1000 board feet to
    about $460 at it's peak in early March. It has since been dropping by
    the Maximum allowed $10 a day to about the 375 level. I need some ammo
    to negotiate the price down. If I have to pay a bit more, I don't mind,
    but this is a bit much.
    
     Does anyone know of a good lumberyard that isn't trying to make  a
    killing and has price that haven't skyrocketed?
    
    Thanks,

    RE: .51
    
    When you find that lumberyard...let us know!
    
    Marc H.

    There is pretty intense competition among lumber suppliers, at least
    in urban areas.   I would guess that it is mainly wholesale price
    increases passed through to the consumer.