Conference 7.286::home_work

    My house was finished in late fall/early winter; in Minnesota. 
    Other houses were worked on in the same development until the
    subzero temperature and deep snow forced a move indoors.  Its
    possible to have a lot done, but unless you are very knowledgable
    you may (probably) will get ripped off on workmanship and reliability.
    
    My current house here in Massachusetts was done in spring/summer;
    p*ss poor workmanship. 

    Concrete needs to have calcium chloride mix added and then kept
    from freezing while curing.  If done right it's fine.  
    
    As to the other trades, the major difference I've seen in the winter
    is that work gets done faster (to keep warm).  This can be an advantage
    if you are paying people by the hour.
    
    Other than that, I don't think there's much difference.
    
    Jim (ex-builder)
    

    I started a large addition last December (very cold weather).  The
    problem I had was not concrete but excavating through frost.  Actually,
    we beat the frost for excavation, but not for backfilling.  Big chunks
    of frozen ground were backfilled around the garage foundation which
    didn't totally defrost until April-May.  This made it tough setting up
    ladders, etc. when putting up studs and walls.  Also, it was tough on my
    hands handling shingle nails at 5 degrees, plus sweeping snow off the
    plywood roof.  Luckily, there was very little snow last year.  All
    in all, it was very successful, but having a "torpedo" heater was
    an absolute necessity while building the garage.
    
    Tom
     
                                                   

    Re .2 "When you're good, you're good"
    
    	As a builder (also!) I can say that the workmanship during the
    cold weather is not any different than warm weather.  Most guys
    are glad enough to be employed the year round, and they'll not tend
    to short-change you.
    
    	A few tips/suggestions:
    
    	Use only kiln-dried lumber.  During the summer you can get away
    with PAD (Partially Air Dried, which means: "Soaking Wet")  The reason
    is that the lumber will not warp as much.  PAD lumber in the winter
    will make your walls look like Quincy Bay on a Windy Day, because
    the extra moisture bends the wood as it freezes.
    
    	You can pour concrete in practically any weather if you add
    the afore-mentioned salt and take care to keep it covered (PolyU.)
    until it sets.  Most contractors will refuse to pour when the mercury
    drops below 20 degrees.  The problems with the foundation come when you
    go to back-fill as also previously mentioned.  An un-back-filled
    foundation during the winter is very risky.  Because the footers
    are exposed, the ground *under* them will freeze, expand and crack,
    crack, crack...  If you *cannot* back-fill, consider hauling enough
    fill in from somewhere to give you at least a couple feet over or even
    go buy some hay and put a couple feet of that around.  Anything
    to keep it from getting frost-bitten.  (Heat will rise from the
    ground... catch and hold it!)
    
    	Oil-based paint or stain can be applied in cold weather, but
    be mindful that the surface may contain frozen moisture which will
    hinder the adhesion/penetration of each respectively.
                                                    
    	Wallboard should not be applied in temperatures less that 45
    degrees and once applied, the temperature should not fall below
    that!  As the sheets expand and contract through extreme temp ranges,
    the taped joints will "mysteriously" pop to the surface and skim-coat
    will crack.  The building should be insulated and the heat turned
    on before you begin drywall!
    
    	Roof shingles will look awful when applied cold, but will
    eventually lay down flat in the summer.  Don't worry 'bout it!
    
    	The main problem I had with winter work (and *have*! I'm currently
    building a 36x36 addition for my church!)  was ICE and SNOW getting
    on my staging planks, getting in my way, having to scape it off
    every stud before I could even put a pencil mark on it, etc, etc,
    etc!!!!  It really slows ya down!  (I would have charged more for
    the trouble, but work's so scarce in the winter, I *couldn't* ! ;-))
                          
    							Don Arey

    Thanks for the tips/advice so far especially from the builders,
    Jim and Don.  I feel more at ease and confident that, using the
    proper materials and skilled workmanship, a house can be constructed
    in the winter with the same quality as in the warmer weather.  In
    fact, I'm going to put together a list of these tips so I can question
    the contractor on what he plans to do and with what materials, when
    I meet with him.  Thanks again, and any more inputs are appreciated.
    
    John

    To keep snow off of staging planks, don't leave them lying flat.
    At the end of the day, turn them on edge.
    
    
    Mark
    

    MY ADDITION TO MY HOUSE WASN'T STARTED TILL THANKSGIVING. THEY ARE
    ALMOST FINISHED NOW. SOME OF THE THINGS I HAVE FOUND.
    
    1. BEST HAVE A PLACE TO PUT ALL THAT MATERIAL WHEN IT SNOWS AS YOU
    ARE PAYING THEM FOLKS TO UNSHOVEL IT WHEN IT SNOWS.
    
    2. I HAD A SMALL PIECE OF FLOOR WARP WHEN THEY PUT ON THE FLOOR,
    BUT DIDN'T GET TO THE ROOF BEFORE A SNOW STORM, THAW , THEN A FREEZE.
    
    3. IT TAKES TIME TO SHOVEL SNOW AWAY FROM A HOUSE TO PUT SIDING
    ON IT
    
    4. YOU CAN HAVE THE WALLS DONE, BUT IT IS BEST TO LET THE FLOOR
    WAIT TILL SPRING TO MAKE SURE THE GROUND IS REALLY THAWED OUT SO
    THAT THE FLOOR WILL NOT CRACK.
    
    5. DON'T LET THEM BRING OVER ANY FILL WITHOUT IT FIRST BEING 
    EXTREMELY DRY, AND THEN COVER IT UP. THE CONTRACTORS BROUGHT A
    BIG TRUCKLOAD OF GRAVEL, BUT THE COLD HAD FROZEN IT IN THE BED SO
    THEY COULDN'T DUMP IT. INSTEAD OF TAKING IT BACK, THEY WAITED TILL
    LATER IN THE DAY TO DUMP IT. THIS TIME IT CAME OUT, BUT IN TWO 
    HUGE CHUCKS. IT THEN SAT IN THE MIDDLE OF MY DRIVEWAY FOR 2 MONTHS
    UNTIL THEY BROUGHT IN A FRONT END LOADER TO PICK UP THE TWO PIECES
    AND TAKE THEM AWAY. (AFTER THIS EPISODE, I TOLD THEM I RATHER THEY
    WAIT UNTIL SPRING TO POUR THE GARAGE FLOOR). 
    
    6. WHEN MY ADDITION WAS DONE, IT WAS ONLY A SHELL, BUT THEY NEEDED
    TO GET INSIDE, SO I CUT MY OPENING. THE DOOR WAS ORDERED BUT TOOK
    SEVERAL WEEKS TO ARRIVE. IN THE MEANTIME, MY FURNACE IS GOING CRAZY
    EVEN THOUGH I HAVE TRIED TO CUT DOWN THE WIND WITH SHEET PLASTIC.
                                       
    7. YOUR YARD WILL BE THE PITS SINCE NOT ONLY CAN YOU BACKFILL, BUT
    YOU CANNOT MOVE THE GROUND AROUND NEAR YOUR HOUSE. THIS CAN CAUSE
    GRIEF WHEN YOU GO TO USE YOUR SNOWBLOWER ETC. TRYING TO STAY 
    ON TOP OF A DRIVEWAY THAT IS SLOWLY GETTING DESTROYED BY BIG TRUCKS
    LEAVING RUTS IN THE DAYTIME, FOLLOWED BY HARD FREEZES AT NIGHT IS
    A LOT OF WORK. ALSO, IF THE BUILDERS KNOCK DOWN YOUR MAILBOX TRYING
    TO BRING IN HEAVY EQUIPMENT, FORGET ABOUT DIGGING A NEW HOLE. THEN
    SOME TOTAL ZERO POSTMAN WILL LEAVE YOU A LETTER TELLING YOU THAT YOUR
    MAILBOX IS NO LONGER UP TO USPS SPECS. BEST BET IS TO IGNORE THE LETTER AS
    YOU HAVE THE BIGGER PROBLEMS ABOVE TO WORRY ABOUT!
       
    8. ALL THE JUNK THE BUILDER PILES UP HAS A WAY OF FREEZING UP WITH
    THE FIRST GOOD SNOWSTORM. (ALWAYS AFTER THE PILE IS QUITE HIGH)
    
    JOHN
    
    P.S. TOM MCPHEE(EARIER REPLY) IS A TRUE DIY'ER. 
    HE AND HIS WIFE FRAMED ALL LAST WINTER.
     I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY USED TO PUT UP ROOF JOISTS AFTER
    WORK  IN BELOW FREEZING WEATHER WITH THEIR ONLY PROTECTION
    BEING ONE OF THOSE SPACE HEATERS PUSHING HOT AIR UPWARD. WISH I
    HAD THIER DEDICATION.
    
    
    
    P.P.S. THE COLD IS GOOD AS THERE ARE NO BUGS TO BOTHER THE BUILDERS, AND
    NO WORRY OF WASPS IN THE ROOF EVES (AT LEAST THEY DON'T FLY VERY
    FAST!).

John, unless you have an ancient terminal, in which case you are excuesed, 
writing in all capital letters IS CONSIDERED TO BE SHOUTING IN NOTESFILES.
Please don't shout.

Paul

    Can anyone explain the use of bales of Hay around construction sites?
    
    I have been seeing lotsa of this is use lately, placed at the extreme
    perimeter of the construction sight and placed end to end.
    
    Is this a State Law? What is the intention of it? Curiosity is killing
    me.
    
    Mark
    

    
    Hay is often used in winter on residential construction sites as
    insulation for freshly poured concrete (footings, e.g.).
    
    On a "real" job, no self-respecting engineering firm would let a
    contractor get away with that sh*t!  Additives are forbidden and
    portable steam heaters are used until the concrete cures.
    
    /Al
    

    I've seen them used to filter dirt, etc. from water runoff around
    larger construction sites.  Something to do with the Mass. DEQE
    and pollution control.
    
    Jim D.

The hay is to prevent "siltation," i.e. soil from the construction site 
traveling to some other area, usually a wetland when it rains.  The 
bales are supposed to be staked in place and stay until the site has 
grass or some other soil-holding material.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Bales of hay have to be used to border a construction site which
    is within 100' of wetlands (when land is being cleared within 100'.)
    

    Thanks for the info and, YES, that sounds like another MASS
    rule. I actually think it's more for show since it appears
    (after driving around today) that they can also use stakes with
    about 2-foot tall plastic sheeting attached. The sheeting doesn't
    even touch the ground... (how's it gonna help the water runoff,etc?)
    
    Thanks again for the info.
    
    Mark
    

    
    
    In Mass., the use of hay bales and/or a siltation fence (plastic
    barrier) is firstly a ruling from the local Conservation Commission.
    Their ruling can be taken to the DEQE and re-written.  Any site
    under wetlands regulations should be displaying a sign with a DEQE
    number. By referencing that number to the local ConsCom, you can
    see the Order of Conditions for the project and what means of siltation
    control have been spelled out. If the barrier is not functional,
    that information should be passed to the ConsCom for inspection
    and action.  
    Some builders will utilize bales without wetlands involvement just
    to mitigate runoff/runin from damaging neighboring properties or
    impacting work on site.

    This might be a reason also...
    One the way down to Nashua yesterday, I saw this cannon-type
    device travelling slowly along the site of the new ramp that's
    being built in Nashua. It was shooting hay and perhaps seed as
    well on the freshly graded side of the on-ramp. Quite a site,
    and a darn effective way to cover ground in a hurry!
    
    John

My building project is finally reaching the stage where the addition has
literally moved into the rest of the house.  I've removed wall and begun
hanging blueboard.  There is dust everywhere!  It's virtually impossible to
avoid since the entire back of the house is now opened up.  Before now it was
mainly saw dust, but now we're into gypsum (I think that's Latin for mega-dust).
Everything has a fine coating on it.  Every time some air moves around in the
addition (like dropping a board), a mushroom type cloud rises and spreads
throughout the first floor! 

Anyhow, I'm only a couple of weekends away from finishing the blueboard in the
downstairs and hope to get in the skimcoaters fairly soon.  This at least means
I won't be adding to the dust that's already there.  My question thought is how
to get rid of the existing dust.  Plywood floors seem to be a natural collector
and I doubt if all the sweeping or vacuuming in the world will help - or will 
it?  

I figure I'm looking at least 6-12 months out before I get around to the
flooring and I'd rather not have to deal with all that dust.  In fact, I don't
mind spending some extra money and even a little labor to do something about it.
One thought I had was to paint the entire floor with the cheapest paint I could 
find.

Has anybody had to deal with this kind of situation?

-mark

    Mark,
    	I'm in the middle of this now after ripping out a 12x14 room
    of horse hair plaster.  There are three things you should do, prevent
    the dust from entering the house, contain the dust in the work area
    and vacuum up the dust before it spreads.  First get an old fan
    and put it in the window in the work area.  If you have a negative
    pressure in the room, the dust won't spread.  Make sure you close
    all the doors and windows (don't forget your car) when the fan is
    on.  Then keep all the doors and windows closed at all times to
    prevent drafts from moving the dust around.
    	Second, cover the doorways in the work area with two sheets
    of plastic.  Use duct tape to keep them closed while you are working.
    Put old sheets over all upolstered furniture.
    	Third, don't try to use your SHOP-VAC to pick up the dust. 
    Even the best filter will 'blind' in minutes and you'll just
    recirculate the dust.  I rented a CARPET DOCTOR vacuum from the
    local hardware store.  It filters the air through water and removes
    all the dust.  I didn't use the carpet attachment, just the suction
    hose.  The hose is a standard size so all my regular carpet attachments
    fit.
    	Keep one room extra clean.  My wife can't handle the dust so
    we make the bedroom the 'safe' room.  This room is also sealed off
    and is always clean and dust free.  That way when the rest of your
    house is a mess and driving you crazy, you always have a place to
    run.
    
    				=Ralph=
    

    Another quick idea... have you tried SWEEPING COMPOUND? You know,
    the green sawdust looking stuff the janitors use. It binds the dust
    to prevent it from flying up when you sweep it. It may be a cheaper
    alternative to renting a vac. Maybe if you spread it around *before*
    you begin work it will help to minimize dust also, by trapping whatever
    reaches the floor.   Good luck!
    
    	Mark
    

    
    	After redoing several rooms (closets, ceilings etc), I've 
    	used a lot of the techniques already mentioned.
    
    	Heres another.
    
    	When your done for the day, about an hour after ( when the
    	dust seems to settling from the air)  damp mop the floor.
    
    	This makes a mess out of the mop and it temporarily bind 
    	the dust to the floor - but thats ok - it works for me.
    
    	
    	Happy dustin
    
    	tom
    

    Brings back the memories!  When I broke through between the old
    house and the addition (first rule was to send the family on vacation
    for the week of destruction itself!), I was pretty religous about
    hanging tarps over the wall opens, in addition to the plastic. 
    The weight of the tarp is pretty effective in forming the barrier.
    
    When I broke through downstairs between the family room and the
    old garage/new family room extension, I just used plastic across
    2 3' wide wall openings, and regretted not using the tarps (which
    were still hanging elsewhere, as the dust from sanding the drywall
    was able to leak out.
    
    Not sure about .-1's idea for constant mopping, unles syou are going
    to end up with carpet rather than hardwood floors.  I did the mopping,
    and in the end had alot of extra cleanup to do because the everyday
    action of mopping, while getting up a lot of the stuff, also cause
    some of it to just get deeper into the cracks.  In retrospect I'd
    recommend just sweeping a lot (use one of those brooms with the
    fine bristles at the ends, not s shop broom), and then mopping at
    the end.
    
    You can get tarps at Spags for a good price - in the camping
    department.
    Definitely don't vacumn - what a mess (and that old note was pretty
    funny now that I thnk about it!).
    
    I fyou have scraps of rug/runners, use them in the area just outside
    the work area, so that you don't track the dust into the rest of
    the house (tends to make you persona non grata with other members
    of the household).
    
    good luck ( ha ha ha )
    -reed
    

    Here's a second for sweeping compound.  The stuff works like a champ.
    It's essentially some chemically treated sawdust but it's expensize.
    A 25 lb. box (size of a small microwave) cost $25.  That was hard
    to swallow at first until I saw the difference it made.  Sprinkle
    a little bit around and it just mops up the dust.  Then you can
    sweep it or vacumm it with no problem.  I tried mopping but when
    you deal with joint compound dust you just make a worse mess.  
    
    When I do demolition I set up fans, isolate with plastic and now
    I use this stuff for clean up.
    
    -Bob

    On covering door openings....
    
    I've had great success using old sheets that are soaked with water
    on both sides of the door frame.  Occasionally use a spray bottle
    to rewet the sheets.
    
    Using these seems to be like a magnet for dust.  When we tore down
    the cieling in our dining room (large archway to the living room,
    and a doorway with no door to the kitchen) we got almost no dust
    in the other rooms doing things this way.  The sheets were held
    up with pushpins and then taped along the edges and bottom to ensure
    that stuff didn't get through.  All in all, it was very successful.
    
    
    -bill

    Another reason for not vacuuming up was taught to me by the repairman
    who rebuilt our vacuum motor.  Seems that the dust is fine enough
    to either pass thru the filter or go thru seams inside the vacuum.
    In our case, it ruined our motor and we spent about $100 getting
    it rebuilt.  I'm still pi$$ed at our contractor for not cleaning
    up - I did it instead, at this cost.
    

    When I put on the addition on my house I damp mopped first. I then
    bought a gal of poly on sale for $11 and sealed the plywood, and
    the dust. I wasn't fussy, I just poured the poly on the floor and
    spread it with a roller. This was done after blueboard, but before
    plaster. I ended up doing it again after the plasterer finished,
    to seal the floor before we put down the carpet.