Conference 7.286::home_work

    A couple of comments. This guy seems a bit pricey, $250 per set
    up. I was quoted $50 for a set up charge recently. For future
    reference, Russell Lumber in Lowell does mill work. Can't really
    guess at what they would charge but I saw some cherry molding which
    was less expensive then what you are quoting. Lastly, what catologs
    list molding ? Would you post a phone number or mailing address
    please.

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		Anthony Wood Products, Inc.
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		Hillsboro, TX  76645
		817-582-7225

DEC 86		Handcrafted Victorian Gingerbread
OHJ, pg 491
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		Vintage Wood Works
		Dept 613
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		512-997-9513

DEC 86		Classic Architectural Specialties
OHJ, pg 497
		CAS is your source for complete lines of reproduction
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    Does anyone know who stocks cherry molding and trim ? I'am 
    looking for a small amount and don't want to pay to have it 
    milled. 

    I am not sure but I have purchased other type of hardwood molding
    at somerville lumber in westboro. I have purchased oak and maple
    moldings there.
    
    Ther is also a place on route 140 in West Boylston that sell exotic
    woods. They may sell molding also, I have only purchased raw wood
    there.

The place on Rt 140 is called LA Botega(sp) and is about 1 mile north
of rt 290.

re .-1
    
    You sure La Bottega is still in business?
    I don't think they are.
    
    Good luck finding cherry molding!!
    

Living down the street from La Bottega (which is in BOYLSTON, not W. Boylston) 
I can assure you that they are doing quite a healthy business./j

>    Living down the street from La Bottega (which is in BOYLSTON, not W. Boylston) 
>I can assure you that they are doing quite a healthy business./j
 
    I tried calling them once, and couldn't think of the name of the
    building in back that sells all the specialty wood.  I called the
    art store up in front and asked for the name of the place that sells
    the wood in back of them.  They told me that that place had closed
    down but was going to reopen sometime in the future.
    Do you know what she was talking about?  
    
    To get back to the subject, I don't think they sell molding there,
    do they?  All you'd be able to get from them is cherry boards, right?
    

    I was down at La Bogetta a couple of weeks ago - sign in the window
    of the wood shop said, "Closed until further notice."

    Well, actually the place is [was] called Iaccarino and Son Factory 
    Lumber Outlet [I have their brochure] and yes unfortunately they
    are closed.
    
    Charlie

    I am in the process of redoing my kitchen which will have a chair rail
    about 36 inches up the wall. my question is should the chair rail
    be level all the way around the room or should it follow the floor.
    The reason I ask is that my house is over 150 years old and the
    floor is a little uneven.
    
    dave

    I don't know what the cryptic reply in .1 is trying to say, but:
    
    It all depends.   If the floor is wavy, I'd say keep it level.
    If the floor is at a constant slope, say 1/8" every foot, probably
    staying equidistant from the floor, depending on the run.   Remember
    that you probably want to please the eye.   If the floor slopes
    so far that you'd be speaking even one or two inches in 10 feet,
    you'd be able to see it.

    	RE: .2
    
    	1579.1 is saying:
    
    		It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
    
    	In other words, it doesn't make any difference.
    
    	Scott

    Sorry, Elaine....  Like you, my first reaction was also that .1
    was a reference to note 1111.  But I think .3's got it right!
    
    Well, Paul?

    Yes, Jim, you're right.  I feel silly.  I guess I just got used
    to seeing Paul's name with four "1"s after it...
    
    :+)

Other considerations:

Will there be wallpaper with strong horizontal lines on the same walls?  If 
so, matching the wallpaper's idea of level may be more important than
matching floor or ceiling. 

Consider furniture:  If you'll have, say, a buffet up against the wall, you
want the chair rail to look level with it.  If the floor's bad enough that
you shim one end of the buffet, then having the chair rail parallel to the
floor would look very bad indeed. 

Similarly for a row of chairs of the same height.

But if there will be, say, two chairs against one end of the wall and a 
small buffet at the other end, there aren't enough height cues to draw 
attention to an out-of-level chair rail, so you might prefer to parallel 
the floor in this case.

    My wife and I have a 'thing' for chair rails and I've
    removed/installed/dealt with them in various houses and I've found
    that I get the most pleasing effect if I go for plumb despite the
    character of the floor.  This meant shimming furniture and (most
    importantly) recognizing in advance the effect of various wallpaper
    patterns when applied plumb in a non-plumb room (i.e., the corners).
    
    I guess my recommendation is to go for level throughout and plan
    ahead when it comes to wallpaper - that's really what ties everything
    in and will turn out either absolutely OK or an absolute mess.
    
    Pete

    I hate to show my ignorance like this but I've gotta ask - 
    
    I'm installing a chair rail in our bedroom - there's no problem
    with an uneven floor or anything.  We plan on painting above the
    chair rail and papering below. (Or have I got that backwards?  Have
    to ask "the one who must be obeyed" tonight!)
    
    Now for the question:  Is it best to put up the chair rail and then
    paint/paper, or paint/paper first (putting up some kind of a divider
    line or something) and *then* tack up the chair rail?
    
    Thanks,
    
    - Chris
    

re .10, paint/paper or install chair rail first?

I would paint and paper first, and then install the rail.  I would also do 
as much pre-finishing of the chair rail as possible before installing it - 
benchwork is easier and less messy than working in place.

My reasoning would be to avoid exposing the chair rail to paint spills, and 
to allow the chair rail installation to compensate for inaccuracies in the 
wallpaper installation.  Oh, perhaps most important, you don't have to 
worry about neat seams - the rail will hide them.

Others?

    I agree that the rail should be prefinished and installed after
    the room is painted.  However if you install the rail over wall
    paper the next person that tries to strip off the paper will hate
    you for life.  Put the paper on after the rail.  
    						=Ralph=
    

    Re. -1
    
    > I agree that the rail should be perfinished and installed after
    > the room is painted.  However if you install the rail over wall
    > paper the next person that tries to strip off the paper will hate
    > you for life.  Put the paper on after the rail.
    
    I've stripped wallpaper from practically every room in my house.
    The person who papered before took off baseboards prior to putting
    up the paper!!  Hate for life is too kind - the only just punishment
    is to make 'em come back and take it off him/herself...  

    Thanks for the input!
    
    
    - Chris
    

I absolutely, positively would put the chair rail up first!  I've done several
times with much success.  As I recall, my main reason was once the things is
nailed in place, you have to spackle, sand and paint (just touching up the holes
wouldn't look as good.  Also, before the paper is up you can slobber the paint
all over the place whereas once the paper is up you have to be VERY careful.


Also, the thought of having to try and remove paper that's covered over with a
chair railing sounds horrible to me. 

-mark

    Ditto on papering/painting first.  I've removed paper that was put
    up before moldings with no trouble - just slide a sharp knife blade
    along the edge of the trim to cut through the paper, then peel the
    paper off.
    
    -db

	Late response to original question:

	Old houses have excuses for walls and floors being out of plumb.
	New construction in old houses have no excuse.  All new construction
	should be plumb and level.  

    My wife and I are looking for braided molding to tack up on the
    mantle above our fireplace. Does anybody know where we can find
    some in this area (central MA)?

    Charly

    Sommerville Lumber (Westboro) has a section of exotic molding

    RE: Braided moldings

    Most lumber yards do have such an animal, and if you don't like what 
they carry, try either the Woodworkers store on Mass Ave in Cambridge or
Constantines in New York. Both carry a large selection of moldings, a bit 
pricey, but if it is a perfect finish to the fireplace, whats a little more 
money? 8^)

    Almost any magazine that mentioned wood will have ads for both catalogs 
or drop me mail for a copy of their addresses. 

    Vic H

This may be a dumb question, or covered elsewhere (couldn't find it 
under carpentry).  

You have moulding running along a wall.  You want to remove a piece of 
it (maybe you're putting an electrical, phone, or cable box at floor
level, maybe you're putting a piece of wood perpendicular to the wall
and want it to be flush to the wall). 

How do you cut moulding?  Do you have to take it off and saw it?  
Right now, I use a wood chisel, which yields barely acceptable 
results.  Is there a better way, a special tool for this?

thanx

"Any old way that works" seems to be the rule for making cuts in things 
that are already attached to the house.

Removing things to work on them simplifies the task, at the expense of
adding two more tasks:  removal and re-installation.  Since these two are
typically more work and more prone to unexpected complications than the
original task, I usually consider removal to be a last resort - unless, of
course, I already needed to dismantle things for some other purpose.

Most portable cutting tools - drill, saber saw, recipro saw, chisel - have 
their uses in this type of work.  I can even envision using a circular saw
or a router for certain types of cuts.  The reciprocating saw is the most
useful and versatile - sure with I could justify one.  Lacking it, I
usually start by drilling some holes, then connect the dots with my saber
saw, and use the chisel for final cleanup.

Tools and techniques are improvised based on the job at hand.  If you're
making, say, a hole for a new electrical outlet, the cover plate will hide
a fair amount of sloppiness, so it doesn't much matter how you make the
cut.  If it has to be finish-carpentry quality, you need to proceed much 
more carefully.

No matter how you go about it, cutting into baseboards can be pretty
miserable work.  You're crouched down close to the floor, working on and
near finished surfaces so you have to be careful, going through some tough,
un-cooperative wood (in my house anyway).  So use sharp tools, turn up the
radio real loud (drives away family members who might be offended by the
requisite strong language), and take your time.

    The best tool for cutting molding in place is a sharp, short back
    saw. Draw a line to guide your cut, kneel or crouch with your back
    more or less to the wall (God have mercy on you if you can't stand
    on the proper side of the line due to an obstruction) and slowly
    cut away. The stiff back allows you to keep the edge parallel to
    the wall to avoid scratching the hell out of it and the square end
    lets you cut virtually to the floor. A piece of sheet metal slipped
    under the molding (if possible) saves the floor from nicks. 
    
    If you can't cut completely through the piece you can usually finish
    up with either a chisel or razor knife.
    
    Alan

    Can someone explain the fine are of coping.  I've got a coping saw
    (I think) but I can't figure out how to use it on inside corners.
    
    					=Ralph=

    A quick tip to those who plan on using a mitre box to cut moulding.
    
    Always place the moulding in the mitre as if you were placing it
    on the wall. This is important, if you cutting for a corner. If
    you don't do this, the two pieces for the corner will not match
    up at all. I know, I learned the hard way.
    
    Ken

    Coping a joint is ridiculously easy ONCE YOU KNOW HOW.
    
    It takes longer to explain and the best way to learn is to see it
    done once. However, given the limitations of the media I'll try
    to give you a lesson:
    
    
    1) Never try to cope both ends of a piece of molding as it is almost
       impossible to get the length right. Cope one end and then cut
       the other end to length.
    
    Coping
    
    1) cut the molding at a 45 deg inside angle.

		Top View

    	---------------------------    |
    				   \   | Wall
    		molding		    \  |
    ---------------------------------
	Wall				
    
    2) look at the molding from "inside" the room and you will see a
       line formed by the finished face.
    

    		Front (inside) view		       
                                                      
    ------------------------------+---+       
    				  |   |
			line ---> |   |
    ------------------------------+---+  
    
    3) Cut along this line so that the coping saw blade is perpendicular
       to the face (or back) of the molding.  You will be left with
       a curve that exactly matches the curve of the molding, note that
       if you did this with plain stock you would end up with a square
       cut. Actually, you should undercut slightly to allow for any
       "unsquareness in the corners. Undercutting means having the
       saw slightly past vertical, ~92 or 93 degrees. 
    
       It helps to leave a very thin shaving on the top edge to insure
       a clean fit where it shows the most.
    
			wall
	--------------------------------------------
             coped piece of moulding		|  |
       ------------------------------------------  |
    						|  |	Wall
    						|  |
    			square cut moulding --> |  |
    						|
    
    
    If this is not clear ask and I'll try to explain it better.
    
    Alan
    
    
    
         

.6>    Always place the moulding in the mitre as if you were placing it
.6>    on the wall. This is important, if you cutting for a corner. If
.6>    you don't do this, the two pieces for the corner will not match
.6>    up at all. I know, I learned the hard way.
    
I suspect that there's some pearl of wisdom here, but I can't make any
sense of it at all.  What do you mean by "as if you were placing it on 
the wall" - right-side-up?  Standing up rather than lying down?  Scribed 
to match the imperfections of the floor or ceiling?  Shimmed to match the 
imperfections of the wall?

Please help me understand what you meant.  If you've got a useful tip for 
cutting and installing molding, I could sure use it.  Thanks.

    re: .8
    
    	I was going to add something similar to my reply. 
    
     What I think .6 was trying to say was:
    
    	Always put the moulding in the mitre box so that the back of
    the mitre box is in the same relation to the moulding as the wall
    will be.  This means that moulding destined for a floor level
    application will be bottom down, moulding destined for ceiling level
    (cornice or crown) will be top down. This is especially important
    when dealing with crown and cornice type moulding that don't have
    a 90degree corner in the back (drawing a picture is beyond me)
    
    Alan

    What I meant in number .6 was as .8 stated.
          
    Some moulding do not have a 90 degree angle on them. So you must
    place the moulding in the mitre box the same way that the moulding
    will fix on the wall (and/or ceiling).
        
      Right Way                           Wrong way
    | \        Mitre box               ||-|
    |\ \                               || |
    | \ \ <-- moulding                 || |<-- Moulding
    |  \ \                             || |
    |___\_\_____                       ||_|__________
    
    Hope that this explains it a little better.
    
    Ken

    getting back to the original question, this is probably the worst
    possible situation for most power tools (which is why the use of
    the hand saw was most appropriate) - AND ESPECIALLY THE RECIPRO
    SAW.  The guy wants to just cut the moulding (he mentioned the
    electrical box as an example not the goal, remember), so you only
    want to cut to the surface of the wall.  If you've ever used a recipro
    saw, then you know what a kick it has trying to do cuts with
    (essentially) the tip of the blade.  Since the thickness of the
    moulding (around 3/4") is quite less than the length of the blade's
    motion, there is no way (let alone a safe way) to use it.  You will
    mark up the moulding to hell and back, or cut the wall.  Or both.
    
    I'm an avid Sawzall fan (Makita in my case), and it is one of the
    most useful tools - especially for remodeling work (as opposed to 
    new construction).  But it does have its limitations.
    
    BTW, they are on sale at Spags (Makita) for $99.
    
    -reed
    

    
    I've used a sabre saw with a flush-cut blade for cutting molding
    on the wall.  If you're carefull you can get a nice straight cut
    without damaging the wall behind, or your fingers. 
    

    RE: .14
    
    I can see using a flush-cut blade on a sabre saw to cut molding
    around a window or a door, but I don't think that would work too
    well for a cove or crown moulding (at the edge of the wall and floor
    and ceiling).  The tip of the blade would bounce off of the floor.

    
    - first you cut with the teeth facing the wall, going as low as
    possible without allowing the blade to bounce off the floor.
    - then, turn the saw so that the teeth face the floor... using only
    the tip of the blade, finish the cut.
    
    

    RE: .16
    
    From my experience with a Milwaukee Sawzall, I would say the chances
    of being successful are slim and none.  The only way to control
    them is by placing them FIRMLY against a surface.  Boy can they
    kick!  I generally consider reciprocating saws great for demolition
    and some rough cutting.  For cutting moulding in place, I'd agree with
    a back saw.  More control, less damage.
    
    Phil

                         -< How do you cut moulding? >-

Use a very sharp axe of the style used for beheading.  Put your back up
against the wall and swing.  Watch your feet.

But seriously folks, I've tried backsaws (you can't cut close to the 
floor), Sawzalls (the blade jumps around then snaps off and hits you in 
the face), saber saws (both of above), and chisels ("barely acceptable"
is a kind way to put it).  

The best results come from taking the trim off, cutting it, and putting
it back on.

    RE: .18

>    The best results come from taking the trim off, cutting it, and putting
>    it back on.

	This is not always possible though.  In my house, this would
    destroy the moulding.  Come to think of it, the new moulding would
    then be easier to cut. ;-)
    
    Phil

    If the moulding were soft (pine), wouldn't it be possible to cut it in
    place by simply making repeated passes over the cut with a whittling
    knife or utility knife.  Granted it would take a while, each cut
    probably going 1/16 to 1/8 inch deeper, but it would make a nice
    clean cut without damaging the floor or wall.
    
    -al

	Has anyone had any experience with the imitation wood moldings
	that are available at places like Moore's and Plywood Ranch?
	It appears to be a dense plastic foam with a wood grain pattern
	that looks like various hardwoods such as oak and walnut.

	This stuff is *MUCH* cheaper than the real thing, doesn't have to
	be finished, and looks pretty good. I've found some stuff that
	matches our new kitchen cabinets really well and want to use it
	as a kick panel along the base of the kitchen walls and cabinets.

	Is this stuff a total waste of time and money or is it an inexpensive
	alternative to the real thing?	


Thanks,

	Larry

       It is very soft and not resistant at all to bumps.
    
       It looks just as good as the fake printed-on $5/sheet 3mm thick
       panelling it's supposed to be used with.  You wouldn't
       wanna use real wood since it would make the chintzboard look even
       worse by comparison.
     
       The stuff is cheap junk.
       

    I have had two occasions to use this "FAKE" molding. One was a 
    translucent plastic with a contact paper finish on top to simulate
    real wood.  The other was a more rigid type plastic that was 
    designed to be painted. This second one was available with pre-formed
    accented inside and outside corners. This was no problem using at
    all.
    
    If you are looking for a real wood look, I'd stay with the real
    thing.  On the other hand, if it is only going to be painted, I'd
    consider the second mentioned molding.
    	
    jar
    

    I put in a couple of half-circle gable vents a couple of years ago
    and the curved moldings are made of that dense foam stuff.  Seemed
    pretty good to me, even up close, since I was painting them anyway.
    If I remember correctly, these don't try to imitate wood grain
    or anything, they are just smooth.  I tend to be mightily unimpressed
    by fake woodgrain, and if you want a woodgrain effect on what you're
    doing I would certainly go with the real thing.  If, however, all
    you want is the shape of the molding with a smooth, painted surface,
    the plastic would probably be suitable.  If you want "natural finish"
    wood, definitely forget the plastic.  As that renowned expert Dave
    Barry would say, if you showed it to 100 people and asked them what
    it was they would all respond, "I don't know, but it sure isn't
    wood."

    
    
    	We are in the process of completeing all the dry wall installation
    in our house and are about to start on the trim and door hanging.
    I started pricing what I believe I need and was amazed at what they
    want per linear foot for molding. I believe the standard run of
    the mill molding is 4 1/2" base for the base trim and either 2 1/2"
    or 3 1/2" clamshell for windows and doors. If I am wrong please
    correct. I priced these at Somerville and the 4 1/2" base was .95
    a linear foot, 3 1/2" was .66 and 2 1/2 was .45. They had a large
    selection and in good condition. I went to Grossmans in Shrewsbury
    and the prices were about the same but they had NO quality. I checked
    with Weber lumber and there prices on sale equal Somerville or are
    better by pennies. NO one would talk a deal even though I was talking
    12 doors and hundreds of feet of trim molding. Are these prices
    fixed and for real? Does anybody know of any other place within
    a reasonable distance from Marlboro that has moldings/trim any cheaper?
    Am I using the correct molding?
    
    
    Thanks
    Chuck

    Hey Chuck join the crowd.
     I could make the molding for you if you want but let me knew.
     
    
    
    Lou Raymond
    243 2647

    Wickes in Acton (you can be the judge if it's convenient for you)
    was willing to deal on doors.  I needed 10 colonial prehung split
    jamb doors with casing and they knocked off $15 per door (normally 
    about $140).
    
    As for baseboard and trim, you might try Builders Square in Nashua.
    With no sales tax (and good prices) it might be worth while taking
    the ride up there.
    
    BTW-I can sympathize with you.  My 1000 sq ft addtion used $500(!)
    worth of baseboard and window trim-the doors came with it.  It really
    adds up.
    
    Bob

    Those prices sound right.  
    
    Be glad you're not using oak.
    

    Try Imperial Millwork. They will come out to your house and make
    all the measurement for doors, trim, etc.. They also will deliver
    for free. When I used them five years ago they gave a discount
    when paying in full when the order was made. I had no complaints
    with their service.
    
    Also, look in the Yellow Pages under MILLWORK for other companies
    that do the same service.
    
    Imperial's telephone number is 617-583-0026.
    
    Steve

    This is a major finishing expense in conventional rooms.  And it's
    one that is frequently left out of estimates (what's a few sticks
    of wood).
    
    Your alternative is moldingless contemporary style drywall finishing.
    This involves casingless door and window jambs, and stop beads at
    the end of the sheetrock where molding/casing would normally be.
    I believe that this kind of construction HAS to be skimcoated (but
    that's only because I've never seen a tape job like this - if it
    were possible it would be tricky at the very least).
    
    Molding is expensive mainly because the rough stock has to be "clear"
    grade lumber which is wickedly expensive for ANY type of wood.
    
    By the way, oak molding is not an unreasonable way to go.  It's
    much harder, wears better, is easier to stain/finish, and looks
    better.  The price of oak molding is only somwhat more outrageous
    than pine.   If I was going to spend $500 on pine, $700 for oak
    is absolutely justifiable given that we have to be talking many
    K$ total cost here.

    If you are into collecting tools, as I definitely am, W&H (late
    of Milford NH, now in Wilton NH, I believe) makes a molding planer
    which would allow you to make your own.  There are, according to
    their flyer, over 3000 patterns to choose from.  It runs about $700
    to $800, although I've seen the full outfit go for as little as
    $600 as a woodworking show was drawing to a close.  This would allow
    you to buy rough stock (pine, oak, cherry, or what ever you wanted)
    at a considerable savings.
    
    - Mark

     Another place to try is P.F. Oconnor (alias Brewsters) in Wilmington
    MA. I had a lot of clam shell casing to do in our last house and
    the prices there beat anyone I called. They have since  changed
    to P F Oconnor so I don't know how the prices are now.
    

    Builder's Square in Nashua has good prices on moldings -- and good
    quality. I just paid .55/ft. for 3 1/2" baseboard. I believe the 2 1/2"
    colonial casing was .45/ft. You save 5% tax, too. 
                                                          
    Depending on your decor/style, you might consider colonial casing for
    doors and windows. Clamshell can be a little uninteresting.  
                                                                

    re .8
    
    When I was last at Builders Square, I noticed that their colonial
    casing was not the standard design carried by everyone else.  This
    might make it inconvenient if you had to repair or add on and wanted
    to match what you already have.
    
    Bob

    I was just out to Yankee Ingenuity (sp.) in Charlton Ma. about 2 weeks
    ago, cause I'm doing over a spare room for a new arrival in the family,
    and they had 4 1/2" colonial baseboard for $.77 and either 2 1/2" or 
    3 1/2" Clam shell for $.55, which I thought was great. I also went to 
    Somerville to price the stuff and got sticker shock. I'm in the shopping 
    mode so there are a couple of other lumber yards in my area 
    (East Brookfield, Ma.) that I have to check out.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    //cowboy//
    
    

    
    
    Give G.V.Moore's a call in downtown Ayer.  They have a warehouse
    where you go out and get your own stock, most of it comes in like
    20 ft. lengths and you cut it to your specs. I found that they were
    the cheapest, you just have to pick through the racks.
    
    

I have a related question and that has to do with archways (or whatever you call
a square opening that doesn't have a door.  The ones in my house that were put
in at the time the house was built has wood that is clear pine and sort of
notched on the backside similar to the way narrow oak flooring is.  I know the
flooring is done like this for breathing but why the framing?  There's typically
space behind the wood from shimming.

Since I plan on paint these anyways, I thought I could get any ol' pine and use
that.  Naturally it should be clear, but must it be milled with the ridges in
the back?

-mark

      The relief in the back of moulding is to make it more likely to
    sit flush against the surrounding surface.
    
    					Kenny

    
       TRY Coldwells In Hudson-Berlin The people there are great and
    last time I checked colonial Molding 2 1/2 " was $.48 and the quality
    is about as good as you will get. I will soon be doing the same
    myself.
    
                              John C.
    

    I've got a question for all the engineers out there regarding molding,
    and how to cut it.
    
    Ceiling molding, and an inside corner, 90 degrees.  What angle do
    I cut each piece of molding at so it meets and fits snug?  I know
    I can cut one straight and cope the other up against it, but what
    angles do you cut at? 
    
    45 degrees sounds simple, but it's an inside corner, thus I've got
    a hell of gap at the front, though the back is tight.  Through trial
    and error, I've come up with about 57 1/2  degrees for each piece.
    How?  I don't have the vaguest idea, it just fits pretty good. 
    
    Is there an easier way, or am I missing something?  Thanx.
    
    Gene
    

    You got to be kidding.  57 1/2 * 2 = 115 degrees.  Either I'm missing
    something, your corner is not square.
    
    If you cut 45 degrees on each piece through the vertical plane,
    when put together they form a 90 degree angle.  Now what you can
    do is take a block plane and take some off the back side.  Now any
    gap is in the back and the front fits nice and tight.  But there's
    no way you're gonna get to 57 degrees without a lot of planing.
    
    Are you sure that this is the same as taking a piece of pine flat
    on one wall and trying to match a mitered corner of a piece flat
    on the adjoining wall ??   Is this a piece of cove molding that
    'leans out' at an angle ??  If yes then the answer is still 45 degrees
    cut when the molding is held to the back of the miter box at the
    same angle as it is when installed.

    I have another similar question...
    How do I decide *what* the total angle is on an odd shaped
    piece which needs molding installed around it?  its greater
    than 90 degrees, but that's about all i know.  I tried laying
    out paper, cutting to that...no good...I tried 'guesstimating'
    the total angle using a protractor/compass sort of thing...equally
    poor results...
    whats the trick?
    someone said use a bevel...how does that work?  
    any help appreciated!
    
    thanx
    deb
    

Too many corners out of square led me to the conclusion that trial and error is
the only way to make sure that  angles  are  right.  So.....I usually buy many
feet more of molding than I need.  That way, I can take two 12" pieces and make
them fit the corners.  Then, transfer the angles  to  the  mitre  box  and  go.
Usually, the planned waste pieces are less than I would  have  wasted  if I cut
molding to the right length and goofed on the corners thereby  wasting  a  long
piece.

If you are concerned that this is time consuming, it is.   But then, it usually
comes out looking good.  I never forget how it looks, but I  usually forget how
long it took to do the job.

Dave

    RE: .23, there is a tool (don't remember proper name) that you can set
    for the angle of the corner by holding it there and adjusting it . Then all
    you need to do is measure it with a protractor. The one I have has a
    plastic handle asmy with a metal blade.
    
    Eric

    Sorry if this is repetitive, but I just purchased $70 worth of crown
    and chair rail moldings for my dining room, and I want to do this
    right, not looking amateur-ish.......
    
    I understand that the very first piece can be butted square into
    a corner, then mitre the piece that butts to that 1st molding. 
    Correct?  If so, what angle do I cut that 2nd piece- 45?
    
    Also, using a coping saw has been mentioned, but I don't have one,
    just a mitre box w/hand saw set-up.  Would using a coping saw yield
    much better results?  Is it much easier?
    
    Thanks, I'd appreciate some advice since I start this project tonight!
     
    John

    I just finished going through this. You wouldn't believe some of
    the angles I came up with!!
    
    
   The problem with cutting crown molding is it fits between the ceiling
   and the wall like this...

                __________________
                |      ______
                |     /   __|
                |    /   /
                |   /   /
                |  /   /
                |  |___|
                |

...which makes it very difficult to keep properly vertically aligned when
using a back saw and mitre box. It *must* be oriented properly in the box
to get the proper 45.

Always cut molding so that the part closest to the wall is the same length
as the wall. For inside corners, this means the 'front' of the molding will
be shorter than the back, and for outside corners the back will be shorter.

                      WALL
                   ____________
                   |\
                W  | \________        Inside corner
                A  | |               
                L  | |
                L  | |

  
                   ____________
                   |\
                   | \________        Outside corner
                   | |   WALL            
                   | | W
                   | | A
                   | | L
                       L


Edd

    I believe the correct method preferred by finish carpenters is to use 
either a mitre box (power or back-saw variety) or build a jig for your 
table saw to hold the crown molding. The molding should be cut while being 
held in the same relative position as it will be on the wall, that is, 
supported in the sloped position, but upside down. This involves holding it 
so that the top and back edge ofthe molding that would normally be against 
the ceiling and wall, respectively, are flat against the jig. Lets try this 
with some cheap graphics.....

    	   A
    ------------------------
    |    |  |c
    |   /  /
    |  /  /
    | /  /
    |/  /
    |  /
   B| /
    |-
    |d

    Points A & B are 90 degrees apart and A is the Ceiling while B is the 
wall. The jig would hold the molding the same way, with B being on top 
during the cutting operation. You would use a wood block for support at 
points c & d to support the molding during cutting and to be sure it stayed 
exactly in place. This is tough to describe and difficult for the graphics. 
If you are not clear on this, there are now several good books on Table saw 
techniques or power saw techniques that show this process in clear 
pictures. You can find them at your local library or bookstores.

    To see it on video, find someone who taped the New Yankee Workshop show 
when Norm built the corner cabinet. Norm used this technique when cutting 
the crown molding for the top of the cabinet. the show is currently on 
reruns so you may catch it in the next few weeks. There ws a major 
discussion of the show, and maybe this technique, over in woodworking and 
tools note. See the directory over there.

    Vic H

    I had a lot of fun doing some molding one time. Till I discovered
    that, although the back sides looked square, they weren't!!!! So
    I had to be careful that I cut both pieces with the same side down
    in the mitre box, or the angles became different. I belive the
    molding was Cove that I had the trouble with. 
    
    I tended to attribute a lot of the problems to the mitre box. So 
    now I use my bench saw. I find that I don't have to worry about the
    piece of wood being held while I hand-saw it. And my cuts have come
    out a lot better ever since.

There's an entire article in last month's Fine Homebuilding on how to install
crown molding.  I'll try to remember to bring it in to mail you a copy,
although that won't help you tonight, and knowing my memory, you'll be lucky if
it helps you this weekend. :^) But you might be able to get a copy from a
library. 

Paul

    Thanks Paul, I'd appreciate a copy since if I have trouble tonight,
    well, there's always the 1st game of the NBA finals plus I have
    plenty of those cold magical beverages that DIYers claim goes
    hand-in-hand with DIYing!  :-)
    
    John

    RE: .22,.24
    
    I checked the corners last night and found that they're _not_ a
    perfect 90 degrees; probably closer to 95 degrees, which is why
    a 45 degree cut wouldn't work.  (The house is around 85 yrs. old.)
    
    I guess it's trial and error and wasting some moulding.
    

Something jogged my memory last night and I actually remembered to bring in the 
article, in issue 51 of Fine Homebuilding.  Anyone who's interested send me 
mail with your mailstop and I'll send you a copy.

Paul

    HELP!! How do you determine what you should set your mitre saw to when
    cutting crown molding?. I bought some and every angles that I have
    tried has not worked. my mistakes are costing me $1.35 a foot and i am
    at a loss. Is there a book that shows how to determine the angle needed
    or a tool that lets you calculate this? my miter saw said most U.S
    crown molding can be cut by setting the arm to 38.33 and the table to
    31.65 but this does not work. Any help,advise or reccomendations would
    be appreciated.
    
    
    John Taylor
    
    

    Assuming you're trying to get the molding to meet at 90 degrees in a 
    corner, you need two 45 degree cuts.
    
    Almost inevitably, you're problem is NOT what angle to cut it at, but
    how to orient it in the mitre box. (Hint, neither of the flat edges that
    look so obvious are correct.)
    
    I once laughed for hours at my father who couldn't get it right. It
    looks so easy. Then I replaced mine... ARGH!!
    
    Edd

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Bruce [Moderator]

    	Help, when installing base molding, I'm told and believe that
    its easier and and generally better to "cope" the inside corners.
     Now having said this, I attempted to use a "coping" saw to fit
    the inside corners, however the standard coping saw blade is not
    narrow enough for this purpose.  Question; do they make narrower
    or special blades for this purpose.   
   
    	BTW, this is Colonial molding
    
    
    Thanx, Jim
    
           
    

If the molding is too complex (lots of tight curves), try a thin, round file.

I don't understand what you mean by "not narrow enough".  Do you mean it can't 
cut a small enough radius?  If not, then I suspect you're doing the coping 
wrong, since the narrowness of the blade has no effect that I can think of on
its ability to cut a coped corner.  Could you explain what you're doing? 

Paul

    	Yes, that is exactly what I mean, std Colonial base molding
    has a tight radius at the top and the "std" coping blade cannot
    cut that sharp a radius.  I dont have a blade here but I would guess
    that the depth of the blade including the teeth gotta be about an
    1/8".  What am I doing wrong.
    
    

    I had to cope some molding with tight radius' and had the same problem.
    The way I handled it was to divide the radius into segments.  In
    other words, don't try to cut the entire radius at once.  Cut part
    of it and then make a straight line cut in for the edge to take
    out that wedge.  Then do the next piece of the radius.  This gave
    the sawblade enough room to turn.  I found it easier to work from
    both sides of the radius.  Also, I didn't cut down to the line on
    the first pass.  I got it almost right and then cleaned it up. 
    The idea of a file is a good one.  Wish I thought of it when I did
    mine.  And, make sure you backcut the molding enough to make a tight
    fit.
    
    	On those pieces that didn't fit quite right I used saw dust
    and glue to fill in the gaps.  After sanding and finishing you can't
    even see it.
    
    George

When I've coped mine, I never tried to make the cut with just one pass.
I'd cut as far as I could, easily, then back out, and start a second cut in
such a way that where my new cut met my old, the waste could be removed,
leaving lots of room for me to turn the blade.  (I think it's a standard
coping blade.)

               < 1st cut
              /
____________
           /|
          / |
         /  |
        (   | <-- 2nd cut, so the top triangular piece fall off
         \  |
          ) |
         /  |
        /   |
       |    |
       |    |

oops.  .39 beat me to it.  ...  What he said!

By the way, if you have many coped joints to cut, don't be discouraged by how
long it takes to make the first few.  I found that I got much faster at it with 
practice (or maybe I lowered my standards).

    	YES, YES, They DO make special blades for FINE, MED, and FULL
    radiuus cuts, found em at good ole Sears Roebucks.   And I used
    one this weekend and they make a hell of a difference in making
    those cuts!!  Thanx, for all the replies.
    

    How about case mouldings around windows and doors.  I seem to always
    have problems on getting an exact fit, especially with colonial
    or ogee moulding.  I know there are some tricks to ensure everything
    fits as it should and I thought I was doing it correctly but I now
    have to recut all of my wood.  (I am going to measure to make sure
    the windows and door frames are square).
    
    I was initially tacking my vertical pieces to the sides, laying
    the horizontal across the top, marking the top edge of the horizontal,
    then cutting to the marks.  I would then remove all pieces, stain
    and replace.  Now when I replace them, they don't seem to fit the
    same.  Any suggestions?
    
    Mike S.
    

    Mike,
    
    You could stain them in place or stain the stock before you cut it.
    
    When I did my addition, I stained first and then cut and fit.  It's
    actually easier to stain long lengths, rather than a bunch of shorter
    ones.
    
    If you stain after you cut and fit, place pieces of waxed paper under
    the casing, so that they stick out and protect the wall.  After you 
    stain, trim away the waxed paper with a utitity knife.
    
    Bob

    We're getting new casings put around the windows and doors in our
    living room now.  (So I wimped out and hired somebody; I just don't
    have the time!)  Anyway, we're using 5/4 stock for the head
    casings and regular 4/4 for the sides. The carpenter is cutting
    pockets in the top casing to accept the top ends of the side casings:
    
    +-------------------------------------------	+----+
    |							|    |
    |	5/4 head casing					|    |  end view
    |							|    |  (sort of)
    | .......						| ...|
    +-|     |-------------------------------------	+-|  |
    							  |  |
    
    It's hard to do hidden lines and such, but the point is, the head
    casing comes slightly down over the side casings.  If anything 
    shrinks, the joint won't open up and show a line.

I'm about to install crown molding in our dining room........all of the
molding has been purchased and I am just about finished painting it.

What I "discovered" in some test fitting I was doing to see how these
miter joints should be done is that the molding doesn't fit into a
90 degree ceiling/wall angle.....the molding is actually a couple of
degrees over!!!


                __________________
		|        A
                |      ______
                |     /   __|
                |    /   /
                |   /   /
                |  /   /
                | B|___|
                |

Specifically, the angle formed by surfaces A & B is greater than 90 degrees.

I checked some other suppliers crown molding......and it too was >90 degrees!
Now the question is this: how does one mount the molding such that those
two surfaces are flush with the wall & ceiling?

thanks!

	Jeff
    

    If it's only a couple of degrees over, then you should be fine - when
    it's installed, then only the two visible edges will contact.  I
    suspect that it's made this way to compensate for the occasional >90
    degree wall/ceiling joint.  Also, many people install this by nailing
    through the void space, which would tend to bow in the molding
    slightly.  The couple extra degrees keep the visible edges from
    lifting.
    
    Paul

    re: .48, .49
    
    Ummm......I'm guilty of not proofing my original entry.....
    
    The angle formed by the two "contact" surfaces of the crown molding
    is _less_ than 90 degrees!  Which means, I think, that the two
    outer edges will not make contact with the wall/ceiling......one of
    them would leave a gap.
    
    Okay...having got it straight (this time!), any ideas!
    
    -tnx,
           Jeff

I wouldn't have guessed (or believed, until you said so) that it was <90 degrees.
I have no idea what you can do about it, except just nail it in and hope that the
gaps won't show.

Paul

      Because   corners  are  usually  not  exactly  90�,  the  problems
      described in the last several replies do occur. The solution for a
      good  fit of mouldings in inside corners is:  don't cut them at an
      angle.  Cut the first piece square, or nearly so, to fit  all  the
      way into the corner and but against the intersecting wall.  Scribe
      the second piece to fit against the first piece.   This  isn't  as
      hard  as it sounds at first, although it does take an extra minute
      or so (less once you get the idea).  If the corner is nearly  90�,
      cut the second piece at 45�.  Then use the intersection of the 45�
      face with the exposed surface of the moulding as a guide  and  cut
      allong  that line with a coping saw, keeping the saw at 90� to the
      back of the moulding. Thats a little hard to explain, but once you
      do it one or two times it becomes quite easy.  Even on a perfectly
      square corner this tends to make a  tighter  looking  joint.   The
      joint  between the two pieces of moulding displays eactly the same
      line (assuming you cut accurately)  but  you  never  see  a  crack
      'cause the first piece extends under the second.
      
      For  outside  corners  you  have to make your cuts at � the actual
      angle.  If the corner is more or less than 90�, the cuts  will  be
      more or less than 45�. If the corner is close to 90� it is usually
      easier to cut at 45� and do a little fitting with a utility knife,
      a plane or a belt sander.

I think you missed the point, Charlie.

The non-90-degree angle in question is not an angle between two pieces of
molding being applied to the wall.  It is between the two edges of the molding
itself.  So if you put a piece of the molding up into the joint between wall
and ceiling, it doesn't quite fill the angle.

Paul

	How about caulking the gaps?  Not the most aesthetic solution
    but if the gaps are small it will probably be pretty unnoticable.    

        George

    Caulking would work, especially if you are going to paint the moulding. 
    Get a paintable caulk. 
    
    I did this to fill the gaps/cracks between the baseboard heat and the 
    wall then painted both the wall and baseboard the same color. It 
    came out nice and clean.

  I vote for putting the molding flush with the wall and leave the gap
  against the ceiling.  It will be tough to see unless you are tall
  and the ceilings are short because you will always be looking up
  at it instead of straight into it.

 -Amy

    re: .56
    I'd vote for the other way around, for the same reasons.  It will
    be harder to see the gap against the wall than against the ceiling.
    To see the gap against the wall, you'll have to stand close to
    the wall and look straight up.

    Many of the older homes I have been in homes had a gap tword the 
    ceiling, why I don't know.  The gap was about 1/2".
    
    bjm

    The molding which is about 1/2 to 1 inch from the ceiling is known as
    Picture Molding.  Driving nails in plaster walls to hang pictures can
    often crack the plaster wall.  The Picture Molding provides a place to
    drive a nail and then run a thin wire from the picture, up over the
    nail in the molding and back to the picture.
    

    Another thing you can do it to add 2 additional pieces of moulding,
    one to the ceiling and one to the wall.  I forget the name of it
    but one edge is concave (inwards).  Hope you can figure this out
    given terminal line drawing.
    
             ceiling
    			+-------/
                        |      /   <-- new piece of moulding
                        +-----/
                  +-------/
                  |      /
                  |     /
                  |    /	<-- crown moulding with <90
                  |   /
                  |  /
       w     +---+| /
       a     |   ||/
       l     |   |
       l     |   /
             |  /
             | /
             |/
                                

>I think you missed the point, Charlie.
>
>The non-90-degree angle in question is not an angle between two pieces of
>molding being applied to the wall.  It is between the two edges of the molding
>itself.  So if you put a piece of the molding up into the joint between wall
>and ceiling, it doesn't quite fill the angle.

      Opps. I did surely miss.
      
      Interesting  topic,  too, 'cause I have this problem to deal with.
      In our new "3-season-porch" we have  a  slopping  ceiling  with  a
      nowhere near 90� angle between ceiling and wall. I plan to make my
      own molding using a router, then ripping the piece to  the  needed
      angle and finally cleaning it up with a jointer.
      
      I  agree  with  the  folks  who  suggest  making the molding tight
      against the wall and leaving the gap between the molding  and  the
      ceiling.   This will look more planned that a gap between the wall
      and the molding regardless of which can be seen more easily.
      
      Multiple pieces of molding will also work, but you may end up with
      more molding(s) than you want.
      
      Question?   Is  the  problem  really  the  angle  between wall and
      ceiling? Or is it that the plaster or joint compound has filled in
      the  corner  making  it less than a sharp edge?  If the later case
      does the molding have a square edge that fits into the corner?  If
      it does, plane of the edge so that you end up with a slight hollow
      between the molding  and  the  corner.   Similar  concept  to  the
      multi-piece molding.  
      
                     ceiling
      --------------------------_              
                       --------  \ <------plane corner
                       \       \  |       edge of molding
                        --.     \ |w      to clear filled 
                           \     ||a      in joint between
                            \    ||l      wall and ceiling
                             \   ||l
                              \__||
                                  |

>The molding which is about 1/2 to 1 inch from the ceiling is known as
>Picture Molding.  Driving nails in plaster walls to hang pictures can
>often crack the plaster wall.  The Picture Molding provides a place to
>drive a nail and then run a thin wire from the picture, up over the
>nail in the molding and back to the picture.
    
     You got it half right.  It is a picture molding, but the way you use 
it is to put a molding hook over the top of the molding, and hang the wire 
or fishline from the hook:


	+-----------------------ceiling---------------------------
	|   ___
	|  /   `			
	| /     \		NB:  Not to scale -- the
	|  ,--.  \		     molding hook is smaller
    W	| /    \  \		     than the molding.
	|/	|  |
    A	|      /  /
	|     /  /
    L	|    /  /
	|   /   |   /
    L	|  /     `-
	|_/
	|
	|

    re: .61, et.al.
    
    (Un)fortunately.....it's not the walls/ceiling that is a problem, they
    actually do form a 90 degree angle.
    
    The molding, to me, seems to be the culprit.  When a framing square
    is put up against the molding......it is very obvious that the molding
    forms an angle that is less than 90 degrees.
    
    I've thought about planing the top (contact) edge of the molding, but
    am resisting that approach unless there is no other possible "fix"
    to the "problem".  I'm still not convinced that the molding is "wrong".
    I checked someone else's crown molding installation that was done by
    a carpenter.....and no special cutting or caulking was required.  And!
    When I measured a scrap of that crown molding....it too had the same
    problem...just not as bad.
    
    Wouldn't you know it......the carpenter can no longer be found, so I
    cannot simply ask him "how did you do it?"
    
    -Jeff

    I have no experience with crown molding other than watching
    Norm "Master Carpenter" Abrams install it.  Is it possible
    to nail the molding so that the gap disappears when it's
    installed?  I imagine you could put nails at the top and
    bottom and nail it tightly so that the wood is forced to
    bend a bit, but you might risk splitting it.
    
    Another thing that comes to mind is the possibility of the
    angle being caused by cupping of the wood.  Are you able to
    determine the orientation of the growth rings?
    Ruth

Re: .-1

I have thought about nailing the molding so that the edges fit flush, however I
think that would be putting too much stress on it.....if it even worked at all!
It could probably be made to work along the two walls where the ceiling joists
run perpendicular.......

The molding (wood) itself is not warped in any way that I can tell......the "back"
of it is flat and shows no wobble if placed on a flat surface.


btw: any thoughts on how best to nail crown molding into the "ceiling" along
those two sides where the ceiling joists run parallel to the molding?

-tnx!

Jeff

    Sure.  Drive a nail thru the molding into the 2X that they added on
    that side to nail the sheetrock to.

    
    
    Does anyone out there it DYI land know of any books that have
    a "good" description of how to install Wainscott molding.  I
    would like to install the "batten & panel" type in my dining
    room.  This would be a recessed panel with 4" battens and panel
    molding around the edges of the panels.
    
    Even something with some good pictures/photos that I could get
    ideas from would be greatly appreciated. 
    
    					Thanks,
    					Jack.
    
    P.S.  Titles and Authors would be nice so I could find it in
    	  the library or a book store.

I seem to remember one of the HOMETIME shows on PBS doing what you describe.  
It's probably in one of their videos, available at some home improvement 
stores.  The PBS show episode did cover it in detail.

    THE OLD HOUSE JOURNAL had an article on repairing wainscoting within
    the last few issues.  Should tell you all you need to know.  If you
    can't find it send me mail and I'll post you a copy...kc

    The Family Handyman also had an article sometime in the past 2
    years on installing wainscoting.  Can't give you the date since
    all the stuff is packed up waiting to be moved . . . but you
    might check your local library.

A quick scan through "doors" and "carpentry-finish" didn't turn up what 
I'm looking for, so.....

I just cut a hole in an interior wall between two rooms.
The builder had the foresight to frame this location for a door, so I'm
that much ahead of the game.
I need help finishing out the door.  Existing doors in my house (about
21 years old) are finished with what looks to be one piece side and top
pieces, the end view of which would be:

                  +----+
               +--+    +----+
               |            |
               +------------+

The visible edges, both inside and outside, are nicely eased.
Is this one piece finishing stock still generally available, at least 
at reasonable cost?  I can easily buy 1x6 and 1x2 clear pine and make
up the shape, but I'd like to preserve the look, particularly the eased
inside edges. Also, the woodwork is stained.  (Were it painted, 
I could dummy up these pieces and the paint would fill in the joint.)

A quick look at the available retailers (Somerville Lumber and State Lumber)
indicates to me that even pre-hung doors come with composite framing.
(I won't be hanging a door in this opening, so an entire prehung door
is neither necessary nor a real solution.)

Do I just need to step up to a better retailer? (Butler? Lamson?)
Also, help me out and tell what this piece is called.

- tom]

Just to keep it simple, I know what I need for casing, normal 2�" colonial,
so that's not part of the problem.

- tom]

    Tom,
    
    What you're looking for is door jamb stock, which most lumberyards
    carry (even Somerville), but..
    
    If you're not going to hang a door, why not just finish it with 1x6
    pine?  You don't need the door stop part (the part that sticks out)
    of the jamb, in fact, it would probably look a little out of place.
    
    And, 1x6 is a lot less expensive than door jamb stock.
    
    Bob

>    If you're not going to hang a door, why not just finish it with 1x6
>    pine?  You don't need the door stop part (the part that sticks out)
>    of the jamb, in fact, it would probably look a little out of place.

Yes, I considered that, but this new door is in a small sub-foyer, about 
3 feet square, with doorways (now) on all four sides.  Two of these doorways
have doors, the other old one doesn't.  All have stops in the jambs, so
I was looking for consistency.

Now, armed with a name, I can go back and actually ask for what I want.

Thanks...

- tom]

    
    Jamb stock? Is that like a combination of the flat 1x part and the door
    stop, pre-assembled? I've never seen it before.
    
    You can get just the stop molding, and tack it to 1x framing.
    This stuff is usually listed as "colonial stop" or "clamshell stop".
    Colonial has the rectangular cross section with the eased outside
    edges; clamshell curve-tapers to one side as in clamshell casing.
    
    The proper placement for stop molding is such that the hinge edge of
    the door (if there were a door) is flush with edge of the 1x jamb.
    
    BTW, for real consistency, you may want to rout 2 or three hinge
    recesses out of your new jamb -- or better yet, mount two or three
    used half-hinges, for that authentic "just removed this door" look :-)
    

    re .4
    
    Yes, it's essentially 2x stock that is rabbetted to produce the stop
    portion of the jamb.  Adding a stop to a 1x with nails and glue is
    considered less durable (although I've seen a lot of prehung doors use
    that approach) than milling it out of solid stock.  In this case, it's
    a good (economical) solution since there won't be a door banging up 
    against it.
    
    Most good lumberyards carry it, or can get it for you.
    
    Bob
    

    
         What is the standard height for a chair rail?
    
                                   Randy

    In addition to the prior question:
    Do chair rails generally go (above/below/level with) window sills?
    The sill in the dining room is about 34.5 inches from the floor.
    Should I just make the rail the same height?
    
    John

    Chair rails are independent of window sill height.
    
    -al

  Houses built before ca. 1820 had chair rails 30" (+/- a few inches) measured
from the finished floor to the top of the rail. The chair rail is integral with
the window sill; i.e. it is scarfed to the sill and is similarly molded.

  Patrick

    How high are the backs of your chairs?  The idea is (was) to have
    the chair rail protect the wall from chairs hitting it.  So make
    it to fit your chairs, or if you have very high-back chairs that
    would make the location look ridiculous, just put up the chair rail
    so it looks "right".  Don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.
    
    re: .20
    I don't see how a chair rail could be integral with a window sill
    (you mean stool cap?) and be 30" from the floor.  Those would be
    pretty high windows.  Integraal with the window CASING, maybe?

    It also depends on your ceiling height.  I have 8 ft. ceilings and put
    a chair rail at 36.  It looked high so I lowered it to 34.  Now that
    its up, painted and wallpapered, I still think it looks high.  The
    standard is 32 inches.
    
    I agree that the idea is that the molding protects the walls from your
    chairs.  If you have unusal chairs, then the molding may not protect
    your walls but would give you the look you want in your room.
    

    re .19
>    Chair rails are independent of window sill height.
    Perhaps, but if the sill is within an inch or so of the standard
    rail height, wouldn't it make sense to incorporate the sill into
    the rail and accompaning molding? It would look odd, I think to
    have a sill, with molding under it, and then the rail under that
    and more molding under that as well.

    re .20
>  Houses built before ca. 1820 had chair rails 30" (+/- a few inches) measured
>from the finished floor to the top of the rail. The chair rail is integral with
>the window sill; i.e. it is scarfed to the sill and is similarly molded.
    That's good enough for me. Most new const. that use chair rail
    moldings is fashioned after the ols colonials anyway. I see no
    reason to think it would be a different height.
    
    John

    I'm not an expert in historical architecture, but HAVE lived through
    the restoration of several ca. 1800 homes.
    
    The thing that we tend to call a chair rail these days appears
    originally to have been a piece of wood that was laid along the top of
    any wainscoting that may have existed in the room. Wainscoting normally
    ran around the entire perimeter of the room, and my guess is that the
    "chair rail" extended out into the room as an aid to the plasterer,
    to keep the plaster from slopping over down the wall to the
    wainscoting.
    
    Also, any windows in such a room would rest on the same "chair rail"
    and the rail would be a part of the window sill, at least at the same
    level, so that there would be a continuous line at the same height
    around the room.
    
    
                             ===============
                             ||  |  |  |  ||
                             ||  |  |  |  ||
                             |=============|
                             ||  |  |  |  ||
                             ||  |  |  |  ||
                             |============||
                             ||  |  |  |  ||
                             ||  |  |  |  ||         ______ chair rail
                             ||===========||        /
                             ||  |  |  |  ||        |
                             ||  |  |  |  ||        v
           ================================================
    
    
    
    
    Obviously today the chair rail is either for purely decorative
    purposes, or to protect the wall from damage by furniture. So,
    unless you are "restoring" an old house (read 'making it like it was
    without regard to modern creature-comforts'), you should probably
    contemplate a chair rail that serves your aesthetic and real needs. I
    for one tend to think that chair rails at places other than window-sill
    height look a teensy tacky.

    RE: .24
    
    >> I for one tend to think that chair rails at places other than window-sill
    >> height look a teensy tacky.                                         
    
    But what if you have windows that are very long and reach almost the
    floor level or maybe a foot above floor level?
    
    In fact in several older mansions in the South I have seen, the window
    sill is at floor level and when the window was opened up all the way,
    you could just walk right out of the window (like a door) and onto a
    courtyard.
    
    -al

    funny you should mention that! one of the colonials we 'recovered' had
    been done over some time during the Victorian Period, and had some of
    those "floor-to-ceiling" windows that you mention in Southern Mansions.
    
    Our own "architectural samples" are all New England colonials. The one
    in Massachusetts that had been "Victorian-ized" still had the original
    wainscoting in the front hall and the kitchen, and the chair rail there
    was a part of the window sills as suggested earlier. That was also the
    case with a later 18th century tavern and stage-coach stop that we
    owned, and with the farm house in Southern New Hampshire.
    
    So, 3 for 3 on original chair rails as top molding on the wainscoting.

       
>    case with a later 18th century tavern and stage-coach stop that we
>    owned, and with the farm house in Southern New Hampshire.
  
This is off the subject a bit but... Why does everyone that owns an 18 century
home believe it was a coach stop  and or tavern? I grew up in an 18 century home
and my parents tell people that same so called fact. Did everyone run a tavern in
the 1700's?


Ross

  re: (.21)

  Yes, I meant window stool, not sill. However, if a chair rail were
level with the top of the sill, it would only be an inch or so higher
than the stool.

  Just for the hell of it, I measured the height of the chair rails in
three 1800-1820 houses yesterday. One had its rails between 27" and 30.5".
Another had all its at 28.5", while the last had its at 30". All of them
had the rail scarfed to the window stool, which is the most common treat-
ment. Naturally, exceptions did occur, and are often found in the houses of
the wealthy, but the chair rail was still at the same height as the window
stool.

  One can find chair rails positioned higher than the window stool in
houses dating  from before the revolution. The evolution of interior wall
covering can explain this fact. There was a gradual decline in the amount
of wood used as the amount of plaster increased, which speaks volumes on
the availability of plaster vs. wood during our colonial period. Funny how
things have 'de-evolved' now that wood covering is more expensive than
plaster, isn't it?

  Patrick

    re: .27
    
    I don't think everyone does believe that. In this particular case, the
    town historical society is the source of the "rumor" that the place was
    a stage-coach stop. And it happened to be on one of the early New
    Hampshire "turnpikes" which in this case was STILL a dirt road when we
    bought the place.
    
    Our first home was NOT a tavern or stage-coach stop. But it did happen
    to be a stop on the underground railroad and home of the local
    abolitionist, was visited by Fredrick Douglas, et al. Plaque on the
    front wall attesting to that. And our third colonial had other local
    historical importance, but also was NOT a tavern.
    
    What's-a-matter, you jealous?
    
    Currently in new construction, and looking for our next "tavern" :^)
    
    

    For what it's worth, the chair rail in our dining room, 1972
    construction, is 35 3/4 inches above the floor (at the top)
    and also is continuous along the windowed walls, forming the
    window sill/stool.  Obviously this was an accommodation to
    the standardized placement of the windows rather than any
    functionality of protecting the wall from chair backs.  However,
    it looks good and serves as a separator for wallpaper or paint
    patterns and colors.
    
    pbm
    

What do you mean by scarfing into the window sill?  Also, could you 
describe which part of the window is the sill and which is the other piece
mentioned?

Ed..

  The sill is the lower horizontal member of the window frame proper.

  The stool is the inside horizontal thingie that you can place all your
souvenirs from Wally World on.

  A scarf joint, often mistaken for a mitred joint, is the joining of
two members, within the same plane, so that the two pieces appear as one.
In this case, a scarfed stool and rail appear as one continuous 'board' that
runs the length of the wall, with the width of the 'board' varying only at
the stool.

  Patrick

>  The stool is the inside horizontal thingie that you can place all your
>souvenirs from Wally World on.
    Inside what? I always thought the "sill" was the horizontal piece
    that ran from the lower frame of the window (when closed) to about
    4 inches outward. To dramatize, if you had a cup of coffee in your
    hand, and you wanted to open a window, you put down on the SILL,
    grabbed the window, opened it up, and made sure you didn't knock
    the cup off in the process.

>  A scarf joint, often mistaken for a mitred joint, is the joining of
>two members, within the same plane, so that the two pieces appear as one.
>In this case, a scarfed stool and rail appear as one continuous 'board' that
>runs the length of the wall, with the width of the 'board' varying only at
>the stool.
    How would one, adding a chair rail, incorporate the rail into the
    (sill, stool, whatever)? Must the (sill stool, etc) be removed,
    trimmed and joined to the rail, or can it be done intact (w/o a
    lot of pain)?
    
    John

    re:.33
    What you set your coffee cup on is technically called the 
    "stool cap".  You and I and the rest of the world call it
    a "window sill" but if you go to a lumberyard it's a stool
    cap.
    The actual window sill is the slanted bottom of the window frame
    that the lower sash comes down and seats against, and that
    extends slightly out beyond the sheathing on the outside.
    

      In  our  entryway we trimed the window sill (or "stool cap" if you
      insist) and installed it so that it was flush with the surface  of
      the  wall.   We then installed the cap for the wainscoting so that
      its top surface was flush with the top surface of the sill. If you
      don't  look  close the sill and wainscoting cap look like a single
      piece. Of course this meant that the window sill height determined
      the  top  of  the  wainscoting,  but  for  us  that  was  O.K. The
      wainscoting  is  6"  v-match  pine  boards,  installed  on  a  45�
      diagonal.  The cap and window trim are also pine. I think it looks
      nice for an entryway.  For a dining room, well, most dining  rooms
      have larger, lower windows and the wainscoting should extend above
      the bottom of the window -- in my opinion.

  re: (.33)

>    How would one, adding a chair rail, incorporate the rail into the
>    (sill, stool, whatever)? Must the (sill stool, etc) be removed,
>    trimmed and joined to the rail, or can it be done intact (w/o a
>    lot of pain)?
    
  Usually, the architrave (the trim around the jambs and soffit) rests on 
the stool, and the stool projects from, and extends beyond the architrave. 
Often, the stool is molded and, therefore, returns upon itself. Trim the 
stool's molded edges so that it will be flush with the architrave's pro-
jection on the front, and flush to the architrave's width. At a minimum,
dimension a piece of stock to the stool's thickness and its projection 
from the wall. Next, nail the stock at the level of the stool, along the 
wall. This stock will then receive the molding, which is scarfed where 
appropriate. In essence, the chair rail is built up of two pieces of stock.
Done properly, the result will appear as one piece.

  You can get real creative, if you dimension the stock wider than the
stool's thickness (the stock will run under the stool). Various moldings,
and/or carvings, can be applied to this stock and will create a visually
pleasing chair rail - not just one made of simple inch, or so, stock. I
can mail you copies of examples that will knock you dead, if you want.

  re: (.34)

  Architect-type dudes call them stools, too.

  Patrick

    re. 36
>I can mail you copies of examples that will knock you dead, if you want.
    That'd be great. I'm at DDD 01/V26.
    
    John Fox

	>     -< Can stool samples be sent through the mail? >-
             
    I suppose that they would stink...  :-)
    
    Kevin
    

>                     <<< Note 1579.29 by A1VAX::GRIFFIN >>>
>
>    re: .27
    
>    I don't think everyone does believe that. In this particular case, the
>    town historical society is the source of the "rumor" that the place was
>    a stage-coach stop. And it happened to be on one of the early New

    You know, My parents use that same "town historical society" argument.
But what's the harm?
   
 >   What's-a-matter, you jealous?
    
    I grew up in a 18 century home and wouldn't own one if you paid me. Nothing 
is straight, level or plumb. Now, a new post and beam would be something I'd 
like.

Ross  
    

    I suppose G.W. slept there, too...
    

    Nope, NOTHING is level or plumb! But that's half the fun, because my
    sloppy carpentry never showed up for what it really is! Even so, there
    are benefits to the old houses that undoubtedly appeal only to a
    limited number of certified lunatics.
    
    Like the absolutely beautiful aroma's that come down the chimney on a
    cool damp day when a slight down-draft brings the smells of a couple
    hundred years of fires back into the living room or kitchen. (sure that
    means creosote and chimney cracks likely to set the attic ablaze the
    next time you light a fire in the beehive oven). 
    
    Old houses mean stone-lined dug wells in the front yard where you can
    get a cold drink on a hot summer afternoon - none of that luke-warm
    chemically treated 'liquid' that comes from the town water pipes. (sure
    that means you'll probably have to dig a new well because the old one
    will dry up in August).
    
    Old houses mean that you'll probably have a "cold cellar" where you can
    store stuff from the garden. We always brought in the winter squash and
    pumpkins and apples. And they'd last through much of the winter. (sure
    that means that you'll have mice and rats coming in from the barn
    through holes between the rocks in the foundation to get their share of
    the Fall Harvest, and the water from the Spring rain will probably get
    several inches deep at the foot of the cellar stairs).
    
    Old houses quite often mean that you'll have some good sized rooms. The
    last one we had, the bedrooms upstairs were generally on the order of
    22 x 24 feet. Plenty of room for almost anything you wanted, a
    fireplace in each to boot! (of course that means that your heating
    bills will be unbelievable! I won't tell you how much we used to spend
    on oil, and how little else we did in winter months because of it. I'll
    give you a hint though, by letting you know that with the heat set to
    60 degrees in the depths of winter, the pantry still got chilly enough
    that we had to put stuff INTO the refrigerator to keep it from
    freezing! at least they insulate 'fridges.)
    
    As far as dear old Geo. Wash., nope. Never had a place he'd been
    reputed even to have passed by. But there was a "Washington connection"
    to the last joint we owned that is of some interest. But I'll leave
    that for another time. Right now, my chair rail needs some repairs, and
    I better get to it.
    

    Please tell us...what did it cost to heat. So, I can justify my staying
    put in my circa 1978.

    Well, I'll let you do the math ... One winter that I recall very
    clearly (it is as they say 'indelibly etched on my memory'):
    
    	Here's the scenario: bottled gas for 'domestic hot water heating'
    
    			     Wood stove in the kitchen and 10 cords of
    			     hard wood that I'd managed to cut down by
    			     the back pasture.
    
    			     250 gallon oil tank in the cellar to feed the
    			     furnace.
    
    			     Thermostat usually set around 65 degrees when
    			     we were 'up and about' the house, 50-55 at
    			     night.
    
    During the months of December, January and February, besides burning
    much of the 10 cords of wood in the kitchen stove, we needed to fill
    the oil tank roughly 6 times, some times no more than 10 days apart.
    (No, the tank wasn't leaking - and yes the furnace/burner had been
    tuned up with energy efficient nozzels, etc) I think basically we were
    raising the ambient temperature in the town by about 3 degrees!

  re: (.41)

  You forgot to mention that early houses are a beacon of genuine and
documented architectural detail and design, rather than the stylistic
fog of the suburban one of a million "split-level-colonial-cape-rancher"
designed according to the "get the dinero and run" philosophy.

  Patrick

    re: .44
    
    Yes, indeedy - we never had the pleasure of living in any true
    architectural gem, ending up more often than not with the 'simple
    country farmhouse' variety. But even there, you get things like you'd
    never find in a house today.
    
    'Frinstance - exterior walls under the clapboards were done with wide
    pine boards, usually pretty rough stock, but the edges were beveled
                                so that any rain that might have gotten
                       |    |   through the clapboards would still run
                       |   /    down the outside of the wall without
                       |  //|   getting in to rot the timbers.
         OUTSIDE       | // |
                       |//  |
                        /   |
                       |    |
    
    And the clapboards themselves differed in measurements of exposed face,
    narrower at the bottom and taller toward the top, so when you looked at
    the wall from ground level it would look to be the same 'exposure' all
    the way up.
    
    And BEAMS to hold up the floors, none of the 'cheesy toothpicks' they
    use these days (like nailing 3 2x10's together). How about 10x10 solid
    hickory, and they only had a 12-14' run to cover because they usually
    rested on the foundation of the chimney in the center of the house.
    
    Fireplace mantels actually looked like something (maybe several layers
    of wedding cake?) with turnings and moldings - today I've got a pine
    slab nailed to the wall with a little board running across the top!
    
    How about 'Christian doors'. If there's one thing I CAN'T STAND its
    that hollow-core sandwich people try to foist off as a door these days.
    We've always had christian doors made for our new houses - but I'd much
    rather have the 'real thing' even if it's slighty out of kilter.
    
    I guess it's a sickness, but it's in my blood.

I seem to remember seeing a note somewhere in here about this topic.  I couldn't
find it in 1111.  So, I was wondering what kinds of woods would be considered
appropriate for baseboard.  I am putting in a baseboard that will be about 10
inches high.  I will be staining it with a cherry stain (to match the rest of
the woodwork).

New England Hardwoods has quoted me a price of about $150 for 50 feet of poplar.
Does this price sound ok?  Is it way too high?

Also, how will the poplar hold up?  It is technically a hardwood, although the
softest of the hardwoods.  I am leaning towards getting this so I can do the
work this weekend.

Ed..

                 <<< Note 4148.0 by KAHALA::FULTZ "ED FULTZ" >>>
                        -< Woods to use for Baseboard >-

>Also, how will the poplar hold up?  It is technically a hardwood, although the
>softest of the hardwoods.  I am leaning towards getting this so I can do the
>work this weekend.

Ed,

Can't help you on prices of poplar, but it will hold up just fine. It is 
far from being the softest of the hardwoods, basswood comes to mind asbeing 
FAR, FAR softer.....Poplar hasbeen used for interior furniture parts, such 
as drawer sides, for years. It is hard enough to hold up, soft enough to 
work, takes paint/stain well and should do a nice job for you. 

Only problem I can see is that it may have green tinge to the wood that may 
darken over time. You need poplar that is entirely clear of the greenish 
wood, it should be obvious when you see enough poplar what I am talking 
about.

    Vic

You'll do much better at Northland Forest Products in Kingston NH.  Their
price (last I checked) for 4/4 poplar is $1.25/bf + $.10 for S2S + $.05 for
R1E - 5% cash discount.  That's $1.33/bf, about half what NE Hardwood wants.
You should call them at (603)642-8275 to verify price and availability.

Take a look at notes 20 and 154 in DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS for particulars.

    Balsa is by far the softest of the hardwoods the hard vs softwood the
    determination is made by how the water is transported from the roots to
    leaves.In  hardwoods the water carrying channels run like a bundle of
    straws that extend from the very bottom all the way to the top.
    In softwoods the water is moved up a cell over a cell up,over.....
    This in part explains why most of the worlds tallest trees are
    softwoods the pumping action of the softwood is able to carry the water
    higher than the capillary action in the hardwoods.
    
    End botany lesson.
    
    
    -j

Thanks for the info.  I will give Northland a call and check on availability.

I really wanted to use oak, but New England Hardwoods said they could not supply
me enough at 10 inches wide.  Maybe Northland will be able to.

Ed..

    Anybody have references for "Craftsman" type trim work.  I've got
    Taunton Press's book on trim, but am looking for other idea books.
    I've got a coffee table sketch book on Frank Lloyd Wright, but there's
    not much detail.
    
    
    dan

    By "Craftsman" I assume you mean the style available during 1900-1940
    popularized by the Gustav family of father and sons?  Also sometimes
    referred to as the Arts and Crafts Movement or Mission Style?
    
    There are books about Gustav and some of them contain plans for his
    furniture.  Gustav himself used to publish a magazine which had plans
    for houses, furniture and the trim pieces for houses.  Check with your
    local library for information about the "Arts & Crafts Movement",
    Mission, or Gustav.
    
    Also pick up a copy of the magazine OLD HOUSE JOURNAL.  They tend to
    cater to housing from 1860-1940.  Lots of good articles about repair
    and revitalizing houses from that time frame.  
    
    Also check out INDEC::ANTIQUE_AND_COLLECTIBLE.  I seem to remember some
    notes about Mission.
    

    
>>                         -< Am I on the right track? >-
    
    Close.... Gustav is his first name. The family name is Stickley. And
    it wasn't Gustav and his sons, it was Gustav and his brother Leopold.
    Actually Gustav has his middle name. I don't know what his first name
    was, but it began with a J.
    
    Also the Mission line at Stickley ended in 1917, when Leopold joined
    the company. It is now being reissued by its new owners Alfre and Mimi
    Audi.
    
    Mike
    
    Mike
    

    Quite right.  His last name slipped my mind and all I could think of
    was Gustav.  If I recall correctly he had several brothers.  They
    started making furniture in Michigan along with their father.  Gustav
    broke away and started making his own furniture from his own plans. 
    Later his brothers copied his style and plans but did not make it
    exactly the way Gustav wanted.  As the style grew in popularity, other
    factories started making furniture, again much to Gustavs dissatisfaction.
    
    He felt that the homeowner should make all the furnishings and the
    house.  He was real big on function over form.  

Mike --

Are you saying that the "G" in L&JG Stickley is the same guy as Gustav?
I thought they were a different part of the family.  In any case, I think
furniture with the L&JG label is worth much less than furniture with the
Gustav label.

BTW, one of Gustav Stickley's books, "Making Authentic Craftsman Furniture,"
is available from Dover Publishing.

    Well it seems I made more mistakes and than gave correct information. 
    The address for Antiques is really INDEC::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE.  I
    corrected the keypad 7 on reply 2 and will add it to this reply as
    well.  Sorry for all the bad information.
    
    Hit keypad 7 to add INDEC::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE to your notebook.

    Dan,
    
    Not sure exactly what you're looking for but we're considering building
    a house and when we were looking around at developments,... a number of
    houses caught our eye- good ol' curb appeal.  Anyway, the thing that
    did it was the moldings and fine touches that the builder did.
    
    So we found out who the builder was... turns out, his family owns/runs
    a wood working mill.  We then saw some of his work around fireplaces
    and his kitchen cabinetry work and were impressed.
    
    His name is Jim Craven out of Townsend.  If you need more info., just
    let me know.
    
    -John

>>Are you saying that the "G" in L&JG Stickley is the same guy as Gustav?
>>I thought they were a different part of the family.  In any case, I think
>>furniture with the L&JG label is worth much less than furniture with the
>>Gustav label.

    Yup, the G in L & J.G. Stickley stands for Gustav. Gustav started
    the company in the early 1900's. His company went bankrupt in 1906.
    Gustav then joined his younger brother Leopold Stickley and started the
    L & J.G. Stickley company. I guess Leopold was the real marketing
    genius in the family. Gustav died in 1942, then Leopold died in 1957.
    Leopold's widow took over the company. That's when the company was
    almost ruined. She didn't belive in hiring women or men with long-hair.
    By the early 70's there were less then 30 employees. Then Alfred and
    Mini Audley bought the company in 1973 for and unbelievable $200k.
    Alfred Audley's dad was a good friend with Leopold. He use to own a
    furniture store in NY city and carried the Stickley line. Now he
    owns the company.
    
    Mike

>>    Quite right.  His last name slipped my mind and all I could think of
>>    was Gustav.  If I recall correctly he had several brothers.  They
>>    started making furniture in Michigan along with their father.  Gustav
    
    Well actually Gustav was the first one in the family to make furniture.
    And the whole thing started in Syracuse NY (actually Fayetteville NY)
    in the Cherry Valley region. He introduced his Mission Oak line in the
    Grand Rapids Furniture Fair. None of his brothers made furniture. It
    was only Gustav and his brother Leopold.
    
    Mike

    RE [.6] is what I had in mind.  I'm rehabbing my house, and taking my
    own sweet time about it.  The kitchen, one bath, and a bedroom have all
    been done in oak trim (pretty standard stuff that you find in the home
    centers, but it beats that cheap looking pine trim that you find today
    even in high-end homes).  I'm entertaining the thought of even getting
    a little artsy about some of the trim work (free-form?) That's why I'm
    looking for idea books.  Thanks for the info, but unfortunately, I'm in
    Chicago.  I guess I'll just have to go on one of the Frank Lloyd Wright
    tours. :}
    
    dan

    I'm having a problem putting in baseboards. I have a mita box
    so i know i'm getting the 45 degree cut but I can't seem to make
    them meet perfectly. Does anyone have any idea what I couls be doing
    wrong? 
    
    thanks,
    Tony
    

    If your house is anything like mine, a right angle is 90 degrees +/-.
    
    Edd

    I've had similar problems,too. One time I found that the "kerf" was 
    screwing up the miter fit......"kerf" being the amount of wood being 
    removed by the saw itself.
    The reason this was so,was that I was cutting the miter,and then using
    both the piece I cut,and the other piece left behind in the saw. The
    angle came out O.K. when I cut the angle twice....once for each piece.
    
    
    Marc H.

Who'd have thunk that note 4275 would be the first note asking about basic 
baseboard installation?  There is one prior baseboard note, but that author is
asking about what to do when the floor drops 3" in 8' in an old house.

Your problem is probably what Edd said - there's no guarantee about square 
corners, except the guarantee that all corners will NOT be square.  You may have
to vary the angle to get a tight fit.  Or are you trying to do inside corners?
Inside corners should be butted or coped - mitered inside corners won't stay
tight when you nail the pieces to the wall.

You be from Bahstahn with that thea mita box?  :-)

Paul

    RE:1
    
    I'm putting the base board on the bottom of brand new kitchen cabinets,
    so I'm asumming that they are square, like they say never assume maybe
    thats my problem. 
    
    Tony
    

    Another thing that may be flutzing you is the mitre box and backsaw
    themselves. Even a little slop translates into a gap at the corner.
    
    My mitre boxes won't acconadate a piece of baseboard in the upright
    position, so I have to lay the board on it's side and make a cut in
    this direction...
    
                   ____________ ____________
                              //
                   __________//____________
    
    ...when viewed from the side. It never works well. I found standing the
    baseboard in it's "installed" position and cutting from above with an
    electric mitre saw works much better.
    
    Edd

    There is a note about installing crown or ceiling molding.
    (carpentry-finish).  You might want to review that note for more ideas
    about how to place the stock in the miter box to get it to cut
    correctly.
    
    I would also hazard to guess that the corners are not exactly square
    and you are cutting for 90 degree when it fact it may be + or - a
    degree or 6 ;^)
    

Here's a hint on how to make the 90's fit together.  I noticed
when I removed my baseboard (to ceramic tile my kitchen and
bathroom) that the wood was not completely flush with the walls.
This is going to be hard to explain in words, but imagine you
have your corner:

                  |
                  |
                  |
        ----------+
                   X

like this.  Where the wood meets to form the angle (point X ) the
wood was kind of pushed out away from the wall.  Not enough to
leave a large gap, but just enough so that pushing out both pieces
caused them to fit together perfectly.  So, you might want to cut
your pieces about 1/4" longer than normal, and just push them out
towards the X to make them meet.

    If you're trying to fit the baseboard *into* corners as opposed
    to on the outside of corners, you can use a coping saw to help with
    the fit.
    
    One baseboard fits flush into the corner (a right angle cut), the
    other one gets a 45 degree cut. Use the coping saw to cut away the
    inside excess on the 45 degree cut. This is hard to describe, but it
    amounts to taking a wedge out of the baseboard.
    
    The piece you coped will fit nicely against the first piece. You'd
    never know they weren't both cut on a 45. 
    
    I'm sure you can find pictures of the process in some fix-it book.
    This method will also let you correct for a buggy mitre box.

Am I understanding you correctly by the following description?

- Cut piece A square and put in corner.

- Cut piece B at 45 degree angle.

- Put piece B on other wall and mark piece A

- Cut piece A on mark (this may not be 45 degrees)

- Install both pieces.

This would probably not be a 45/45 corner, but you are saying that it wouldn't
be noticeable.  I wish I had known this method when I was putting baseboard in
my living room.  I will use it to finish the top trim on the baseboard.

Ed..

    Going too far here. You have the first two steps correct. Now when
    piece B is cut at a 45 deg. angle it will give you a curved line when
    viewed from the face dead on. This is the line you want to cope. This
    is a perfect (assuming that your cut was really 45 deg.) match for the
    curve(s) on the face of piece A. This line should be cut with the
    coping saw at 90 deg to the face of piece B or a small angle towards
    the back so that the front edge of the cut fits snugly against the face 
    of piece A. Hope this helps.
    
    TPV

    Here's another way to look at the method in .8 for coping out inside
    corners of complex moulding shapes...
    
    Imagine that you've painted the surface of the moulding before
    installing. Piece A is cut square to lenghth and attached to the wall.
    Piece B is cut at a 45 on the end to mate with A. This is the same cut
    you're making now. A line will be formed by the intersection of the
    paint on the surface and the bare wood now exposed (by cutting at 45
    degrees). That line, when viwed perpendicular to the face of the
    moulding will be the profile of your moulding. Simply cut with a coping
    saw, perpendicular to the face, along the line. The result should be an
    exact mate to the face of piece A 90 degrees away. You should not mark
    piece A or remove piece A once it's up (or down). Now all you have to
    do is cut the piece to length (or cope out the other end).
                                             
    This technique is used more often for complex shapes like chair rail
    than baseboard. Do you need to go through all this for baseboards?
    
    Glenn

One thing to remember about inside corners is that even though the walls
may be square (yeah, right!) the sheetrock mud used to make the corners
almost always fills the corner out. You sometimes need to releave the back
of the baseboard to make it fit flat.

Mickey.

    Does anyone know how far from the floor you should position a
    chair-rail?  I can't really go by the height of my chairs as I have a
    collection of antique chairs and they're different heights.
    
    Thanks for your help,
    

I'm not an expert, but I installed all the chair rails in my house at the same
height as I did in the kitchen, which was at the same height as the
countertops. I did this the second time around after realizing the first time
that not taking the location of the countertop into consideration results in

1. 1 hour spent wondering how I can explain (or hide) this obvious stupid
mistake
2. 1 hour spent being chastised by another interested party, and
3. 1 hour being told "everybody knows that!" by the father of the interested
party in (2), above.

in addition to having to rip it all down and start again.

    
          I just did both my Dining room and Kitchen. I measured and found
     that from the floor to the bottoms of my window sills and kitchen
     counters came to 35 1/2. So I took the mouldings off the bottoms of
     the windows and ran the chair rail right around the room and it came
     out great. 
                                                Randy

     <<< Note 4602.1 by EPOCH::JOHNSON "If we build it, they will come." >>>

>1. 1 hour spent wondering how I can explain (or hide) this obvious stupid
>mistake
>2. 1 hour spent being chastised by another interested party, and
>3. 1 hour being told "everybody knows that!" by the father of the interested
>party in (2), above.

    Pete,

Dontcha just hate it when the experts show up "AFTER" the job is done? 8^)

    Vic

    
        I don't think Pete will be the last person in this notefile to
      ask the question he asked. I also never claimed to be an expert,
      just that I had done it a certain way and it worked.
    
                                                 Randy

    I just did a chair rail recently, and wasn't constrained by countertop
    or window sill heights.  I went with 34" because it seemed to divide my
    7'8" high walls in a way that looked "good".  It was purely subjective,
    but both my wife and I quickly agreed on the height.  It just looked
    right.
    
    Bob

                     <<< Note 4602.4 by EBBV03::CASWELL >>>

>        I don't think Pete will be the last person in this notefile to
>      ask the question he asked. I also never claimed to be an expert,
>      just that I had done it a certain way and it worked.
    
>                                                 Randy

    Randy, My comments were not aimed at your reply...I was directing them 
toward our live-in experts that Pete was refering to, presumably his wife 
and in laws.....strictly a tongue in cheek comment, not aimed at our fellow 
noters! All too often I have done something "my way" only to have one of 
the live in experts, either wife or kids, suggest how they would have done 
it......

    	Vic

    Thank you for your answers -- I think the windowsill suggestion is the
    one I will use --
    
    We're not putting in an actual chair-rail -- I am stencilling it
    instead.  My idea had been to stencil at the bottom of the windowsill
    but it looked funny with the molding (especially because I wanted to
    stencil just below the window) -- so I think we will take the molding
    off and just do the stencilling.
    
    Thanks,

    At the bottom of the windows?  My windows must be much lower than
    yours.  The chair rail I'll be putting up will go at about the midpoint
    of our windows.
    
    I agree with the suggestion to go at counter height (34-36").  

    I'm doing my diningroom not a kitchen, so I don't have to deal with a
    countertop.
    
    Also, in everything I've read it has said to be sure not to divide the
    wall anywhere near the mid-point as it will 'close-in' the room.

    
         From "Early Domestic Architecture of Connecticut" (p. 147):
    
                 "...for the chair rail, or wainscot cap, is
                  generally formed by a continuation of the
                  window stool and of the mouldings beneath
                  it."
    
         
                                             FWIW,
    
                                                   Steve

    re .7
    
    About removing the moulding under the window - the moulding adds support 
    for the sill.  Granted it shouldn't take a lot of weight anyway but if 
    you remove the moulding you'll weaken the sill somewhat.
    
    George

Chair rails in the conference room nearest me in ZKO are 3 inches wide and
measure 29 inches up from the floor to the bottom of the rail.

Since the rail in question is painted on, it doesn't matter, but if I were 
installing a real one, I'd measure my chairs and put the rail so the chairs
wouldn't rub the wall when backed up to it.

Re: .11

I think that .7 meant that they took down the moulding they had as a chair rail
not the moulding for the window.

Elaine

(is that how you spell moulding?)

    >>(is that how you spell moulding)
    
    Nope, it's molding.  The spell lobe of my brain must have been turned
    off.

    
    Re .10: That's exactly how it was done in my house.
    

 I asked the folks are Home Depot. They came up with  3' is standard but
that it's normal to see them as high as 40" and low as 32" (measured floor
to lower edge). 

 We went with 3' and it looks fine. If our ceilings were higher we'd have 
moved it up to balance out.

    
    	I am looking for a source of oak trim.  Area is southern N.H.
    	Or at least the preferred area.
    
    	What I am doing is getting ready to tile my upstairs bath.  We are
    	using large tiles (I think 12" x 12").  The problem is that for
    	this particular tile, there isn't bullnose (?) trim available.
    	I need the trim to match between the fiberglass tub and the
    	vertical tile on the front surface.  Also between the top and
    	front surface of the step in front of the tub.
    
    	I am looking for right angle outside trim oak.  My current choices
    	are a piece that I think is 1.5" x 1.5" from Corriveau Routhier
    	at around $30 for 8', or the standard .75" x .75" or 1" x 1" that
    	you can find at most place like HD, HQ, etc.  The smaller stuff
    	doesn't give me enough inside area to cover what I want.
    
    	thanks, Glenn....
    

RE: .15

    Since I don't know the installation, it is hard to say for sure, but
    I wouldn't use oak around the tub.  When oak gets wet, as it will around
    the tub (or vanity), it will turn black.  Once dry, it will stay a dirty
    grey color.  (I had this problem on an oak topped vanity.)

    You might consider (if you haven't already) trying to find a bullnose
    in a complementary color.  Another thought would be to use a wood
    whose color is less affected by moisture.  Some of the pines aren't all
    that affected and could be stained darker.  Teak would certainly hold up
    well...but it would cost quite a bit.

- Mark

    
    	-1
    
    	Good point!  Yup, it will definately be a wet area.  Would I
    	have a chance if I put multiple coats of urethane?
    
    	I also like the complementary color idea.  Now the hard part.  I
    	told my wife about the oak idea, and she loved it.  Now to try and
    	undo that....  8*(((
    
    	thanks, Glenn
    

You could use spar urethane (minwax makes one).  I've used it for a kitchen
window sill, and it seems to resist the water alright.  You'd have to put the
full three coats (or maybe more) on all sides, not just the exposed edge.

I expect some form of urethane would keep out the moisture.  As .18 suggested,
though, make sure you use multiple coats and do all sides *and the ends*.  That
should keep out most if not all of the moisture.

- Mark

One last thought.  If you do use some type of urethane and it is exposed to
sunlight (most likely from a window), make sure it has ultraviolet (UV)
inhibitors.  Otherwise the UV will cause a more rapid breakdown of the
finish.  (BTW, this is one reason for using spar urethane.  It is usually
used outdoors on boats.)

- mark

>    
>    	I also like the complementary color idea.  Now the hard part.  I
>    	told my wife about the oak idea, and she loved it.  Now to try and
>    	undo that....  8*(((
>    
>    	thanks, Glenn
>    

Glenn,
    Tell her that some oaks (red for example) smell like urine when they get
wet.......................

- jw

    
    	?????  Sorry, I almost spit my lunch onto the terminal from
    	laughing so hard.  But really, is that serious, or did you forget
    	the smiley?????  Serious or not, that's a good one.  Problem is
    	I couldn't keep a straight face when telling her that, then she
    	would think I'm trying to get out of using the wood..... 8*)
    
    	thanks, Glen(n)
    

Serious.

	Steve

    I'm serious...................

    My wife came out to this years wood pile as I'm splitting it up and 
    observed;

        > "Euewee..... what smells like P!$$ ?????"
        - "It's the oak dear - why do you think they call it P!$$ oak?"
        > "They do!?!  Why does it smell like THAT?"
        - "The deer like to PP!$$ on it - markes their territory and helps
            the trees grow.  Helps guarantee a supply of mast........"
        > "You're kidding!?!!!   That's GROSS!"
        - "Bwahaha hahaaa ha......"
        > WHACK!


...................................          :)

    Hello, everyone. This is my first Home Work note.

    I am buying a newly constructed home. It is to be finished Jan 21. 
    Due to the kind of dickering that can happen when negotiating with
    a builder, the builder and I have agreed that he would supply a higher
    grade of wood for the baseboards and casings, and I would do the 
    finishing. (Well, its better than the white paint that was in the 
    original deal.) This woodwork has to be done before the carpet can be 
    installed, which will be done before closing, and so I will be given 
    a few days sometime in early Jan (perhaps) to go in and do it.

    Now for the question part of the question. 

    I am not going to have a lot of time to do this procedure. I am 
    looking for an light-oak-like coloring with a low gloss on pine.
    I need to get in, do it, and get out, in perhaps one long weekend.

    Can anyone recommend what kind of finish to use, and how to go about
    doing this? Given that I might be limited to two applications of 
    finish, and yet of course I want it to look reasonably well. Names
    of products are appreciated. 

    Kevin

    There are a number of brands of combination stain/sealer products on
    the market; these would be quick and many like the results.  Minwax
    has the best-known product.  Flecto has a line based on their
    Diamond Varathane finish which I like a lot (haven't used the
    combo-product, though.)
    
    				Steve

    
      My first thought to help speed your doing this was to suggest the use
    of a stain/sealer combo. But I think its a bad idea to use that on
    baseboards. Since the stain is *in* the leayers of sealer AND
    baseboards always get chipped, it would look awful after a few years
    and recoating would not fix it, nor would resealing with a clear.
    
      Since the carpets are the limiting factor, why not just concentrate
    on the baseboards and worry about the other stuff once the baseboards
    are done. Use a stain that claims to dry fast (many say wait overnight
    for recoat or sealing) And then use a fast dry urethane. You should be
    able to get a coat of stain on Sat morn. A coat of Urethane Sat night
    and another on Sunday around midday. 
    
    				Kenny

    If you use a water-based semigloss polyurethane, you can recoat in about
    an hour.  You have to be sure the stain is dry before using the water
    based polyurethene, though.

    I redid a hardwood floor using Minwax Golden Oak and a water-based poly.
    I was in a "bit of a hurry", so I didn't wait the full amount of time
    for the stain to dry before starting the poly.  I put four coats of poly
    down (I think -- may have lost count :-).  So far, it looks pretty good,
    but I expect to have trouble down the road, due to painting over wet
    oil with water...

    
    You may also want to consider this option...
    
    Just do the stain.
    
    After all, staining is by far the sloppiest part of the job. Use the
    limited time to get the slop out of the way and do it right, then after
    the carpet is installed take your time touching up any scratches and
    varnishing. A decent straightedge guide will help you poly the
    baseboard without interference from the carpet.
    

How about a water-based stain?

    Thanks for all the advice so far. Please keep replying if anyone else
    wants to offer advice.

>>>    Since the carpets are the limiting factor, why not just concentrate
>>>  on the baseboards and worry about the other stuff once the baseboards
>>>  are done. 

    From the contractor's point of view, each time I become a gating factor
    is a concern to him and getting his work done on schedule. I don't want to
    push my welcome, and I'd rather not give him a ready excuse for slipping. 
    So I want to limit my "visit" to one shot if possible.

>>>  I put four coats of [waterbased] poly down (I think -- may have lost 
>>>  count :-).

    I would imagine the hardwood floor would require more coats than I need
    here ... I hope ?!?!?!

>>>  Just do the stain.
>>>  A decent straightedge guide will help you poly the baseboard without 
>>>  interference from the carpet.

    True. But it is a heck of a lot easier, faster, and less stressful to
    do it without the carpet if I can. Plus its one less chore on my head after
    I move in. But I will consider this an option, too.

    
    If there's a suitable place to do it, you might consider pre-finishing
    the trim wood before the builder installs it.
    
    JP

    In the last 2 houses we've had built, the carpenters stained the
    interior wood trim BEFORE they installed it.  A lot less messy
    than staining after installation, but there may be a little
    touch-up required at the cut ends.
    
    Given your requirement to get in and out quickly, pre-staining
    the wood trim is a good idea.  That way you only have to deal
    with the polyurethane after the trim is up.

1) Stain the wood before it goes up if you can.
2) Apply one coat of sanding sealer
3) Lightly sand or use steal wool
4) Apply two coats of urethane (My favorite is UGL Zar antique Finnish)

Results are terrific - smooth as a baby's behind.

I haven't found water based products to be as durable as oil.  Only my 
experience.  They are, however, becoming more popular.

-Brian

    
    	Yup, prefinish.....
    
    	When our place was being built, we had a similar deal.  We worked
    	out that we would finish the woodwork before it went up.  Since
    	the 2nd floor was to remain unfinished at that time, we just put
    	everything up there, and went to work.  All doors, and all trim,
    	and all windows.  Due to the amount of stuff we only got the
    	stain done on all, and some urethane.  Then as time passes, when
    	we have a chance, we do bits and pieces here and there.  Biggest
    	problem is getting the 'thane on the wall paint.  
    
    	Also, do 2 coats of 'thane.  Much nicer....  
    
    	We used oil based stain, and water based 'thane.....
    
    	Glen(n).....
    

    Yes, I guess that I forgot a little detail.

    I _will_ be pre-staining before the woodwork is installed. Baseboards
    and door cases. That is what the builder expects me to do.

    I don't think he is expecting me to 'thane or varnish. I don't suppose
    there's any reasonable way to pre-do that, right?

    Maybe he'll let me "in" again between when the woodwork is on but before
    the carpets are in. He'll probably paint before he nails the boards down,
    right?

    See why I need help? :-)

    Any good notes in here in the techniques of [pre-]staining this kind
    of woodwork?

    Continuing thanks ...

    Try Carvers (or is it Tripps - one of them is the company's name and
    the other the brand) polyurethane. It's water based (good for the
    environment), dries in 2 hours (which is great if you want to get a few
    coats on in a day) and doesn't seem to yellow.
    		Cindy
    

If you're just staining, there are lots of wipe-on stains which will work
well.  Minwax is probably the best known brand, but many others will work.
Look at the displays at the store to find a finish you like, but realize that
the longer you leave the stain on, the darker it will be.

				Steve

    	There are wipe on stains with poly in them. They are in gel form
    and wipe on with a rag. I've used them with good results though I can't
    remember the brand name off-hand. I got it at Country Woods in Raymond,
    NH.
    
    	Ray

Hey Joe !

Thanks for the laugh !!  I can picture Joan whackin' you up the
side of the head while you're bustin' a gut !!

waaaa haaa haaaa   thump

    
    reply to .11
    
    I have replaced all the floor moulding, door casings, etc in my house
    and have both prestained and pre-urethaned the woodwork BEFORE putting
    it up. A little putty to hide the nail holes and it looks great.
    
    The urethane always seems to run on vertical surfaces. This way I 
    urethaned when everything was lying flat on the floor.
    
    Definitely use 2 coats of urethane. It looks much nicer than 1 coat,
    as anearlier note indicated.

    I used the Tripp's stain and urethaned water-based.  When applying the
    stain, I used a foam pad in one hand wiped with a rag with the other
    hand, do small sections or you'll have uneven results.  I purchased a
    bag of foam pads for $5, and the best part is you can throw the pads
    away--no clean up.  
    
    When apply the urethane, you must lightly sand after the first coat,
    and preferly after the next.  I used my orbital sander, because I had
    too much to do in a short period of time.  
    
    If you use wood putty --- VERY IMPORTANT-- do not use the putty untill
    you have finished the stain or you'll have spotted woodwork, because
    the stain won't cover over the putty.  Read the can on the putty on how
    to mix with the stain or you can buy colored putty. 
    
    Good luck!

    Hi, all.

    Well, the "big day" came and went. Thought I'd share the happy outcome.

    The delivery of the finish lumber came late in the afternoon on the 
    day after it was supposed to - which was the day we were supposed to
    have to do the staining. So we didn't get started until 4, which was
    already dark.  The house had no lights as yet, and the only working
    outlet was in the basement next to the breaker box. No furnace yet,
    either - thank goodness it was almost warm.

    So we stained until late in the glow of a single 60-watt bulb, until
    we could see our breath in the cold. But didn't finish, though.

    My partner couldn't take yet another day off, so I went back the next
    morning, what I thought of as bright and early (8), to finish. The 
    "finish crew" was already there. The furnace guy was also there, so that
    the finish crew would have heat. Gee.

    The finish crew didn't really care that the delivery was a day late.
    They didn't really care that it was supposed to be stained before being
    put up. They didn't really care to deal with me, for that matter. All
    they cared about was doing a job and then going to the next one. 

    I went to work, trying to finish ASAP, yet still trying to do a decent job.
    It was gruesome. At one point, we were actually fighting over pieces of
    wood, one guy on one end, I on the other, playing tug-o-war. I wanted it
    stained first - they wanted it up first. Fortunately, because the night 
    before we had luckilly stained many of the right pieces, I was somewhat
    ahead of them. Unfortunately, the pieces I didn't get to in time were
    the woodwork for the main stairway and railings - the single biggest and
    most elaborate woodwork in the house. (Later, when I did stain them,
    the few spots where there was excess glue stuck out like a sore thumb.
    ****!)

    I finished up that morning. The finish crew gave me the one-finger wave 
    goodbye. 

    Later, it turned out that the shipment was short. However, they were able 
    to get more later that very day (after so much trouble with the initial
    shipment) and of course they didn't call me to come up and stain it first.

    By carefully managing to "screw things up" (or so they thought) I was able
    to have carpet/flooring installation postponed long enough to finish 
    staining, and even two coats of poly on the baseboards, before the floors
    were finished. But there was no way enough time to do it all. I settled
    for finishing everything four inches from the floor and below. 

    We puttied, polied, sanded, and polied again. I found that the putty 
    step would have worked better after the first coat of poly - easier to 
    wipe of the excess. I also found out that the sanding didn't help anything
    apparently. That is: We started out not sanding, but it felt rough, so
    we sanded most of it. After the second coat, it turned out that the small,
    unsanded section we did at the beginning was no worse than the rest. 

    However, because we wanted gloss, I think a third coat is needed. Maybe
    I'll do it, even though the carpets are in (today I hope!). 

    Moral: Don't believe the builder when he says he is going to make time
    for you. Maybe he will, but he'll take it back in a pinch if he needs it.

    Thanks for all your advice. This conference was a definite asset.

    Kevin

I've checked 1111.* for this but did not find anything, so here is a 
new topic.  Moderators, feel free to move or delete this if I missed
its proper home.

I live in a garrison colonial in MA, with the typical loads of trim.
Much of the trim is rotting. Several of the vertical 1x6 pieces at the
corners are rotting from the bottom. These are all at least 2 ft from
the ground, not touched by bushes, etc.  Any ideas about why?

The roof trim is also bad. This consists of a 1x6 against the last rafter,
and a 1x4 attached to it.  The asphalt shingles stick out about 1/2"
past the 1x4.  The two trim boards extend past the end of the rafter and
hide the ends of the aluminum gutters.  Water gets between the boards
and causes the rot. It is not overflow from the gutter, but rain and
runoff from the roof. The rot is just at the exposed end.

I'm about to replace the bad trim, and I have some questions.
I do not want to do this job again.  Would pressure treated wood help?
I've painted PT wood and left it outside for a few years and the paint 
seems to adhere.  What about replacing just the ends of the trim?
I was thinking of taking off about 4 ft of the 1x6 and 6 feet of the 1x4.
This is partly to avoid handling 16 ft boards while 30 ft in the air.
But it also means disturbing fewer shingles.  The roofing nails go into
the trim boards. Will that be too noticeable? The joints at the ridge line 
are sound, but I could put epoxy on the pine or just caulk the butt joint 
between the pine and the PT?  

Thanks in advance for any explanations or tips for the project.

    
    As we are househunting at the moment, this seems like pretty common
    wood damage.  The expansion of the wood at the cut end causes paint to
    fail, rain runs down and is soaked into the grain.
    
    I wouldn't bother to use PT, but I would stand the cut ends of the
    replacement wood in a paintable preservative like CWF for a couple
    of hours so that they soak it up.  (Apply it liberally to the cut ends
    if you decide to scarf in a piece rather then replace a whole board.)
    Use an aluminum primer on the end grain and the topcoat will last much
    longer.
    
    Something my Dad used to do was make a drip edge on trim boards either
    by a pass with a router, or cutting them at a slight angle.  This
    encourages water drips to run off rather than hang on to the flat end
    of the board.  He'd also sand the edges of the cut ends just enough
    to take off the sharp edge, because the paint adheres better to
    a curve rather than an edge.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
     
    
    

re: .1

Good advice, but don't use CWF.  Use a clear wood preservative like Olympic or
Cuprinol.  CWF does not stand up over time.

Elaine

from .1:

    Use an aluminum primer on the end grain and the topcoat will last much
    longer.

What do you mean "aluminum primer"?  Do you mean a primer meant for priming
aluminum, or a wood primer that contains some percentage of aluminum in it?

-Chris

    
    A primer that is basically aluminum pwder in phenolic varnish.
    
    Normal primers offer moisture-absorption values of 20-25
    on a scale of 1-100 wher 100 is totally waterproof.  Aluminum
    is 40 for one coat.   It gives an excellent key for the
    topcoat, but is harder to hide with light-colored topcoats.
    
    Colin
    

Thanks for the treatment ideas. 

Do I need them if I use PT wood?
Are there reasons not to use PT wood?

I know it is ugly, but the grain and knots do not show through the paint.
I know a lot of it is bowed or warped or cupped or some combination,
but I've found some that seems straight. By its weight it also seems
dry.  I do not mind waiting a year to paint it, or repainting in a
year.  I do mind repeating the job every few years. 

Will paint on PT wood blister or peel? Will the color change at a different
rate than for other wood?  What other problems are there?

I've encountered some opinions to not use PT wood. One reason is because
it just is not done.  The other is because it is wet. What if I let it
dry?  Does it violate a building code?  

I just realized I can change the design.  The trim does not have to extend
beyond the roof line.  I guess I have to look at some other houses.

Thanks again for the comments so far.  Further suggestions are welcome.

You would want to get some kiln dried PT wood, if anything.  Most of it is so
wet that it shrinks a lot the first year.  You'd still have to put preservatives
on it and keep it from twisting while it dries, and before you can paint or
stain it.  I don't think PT comes in No. 1 quality, though.

    
    Expense?

    	Might be worth looking into vinyl siding (facia panels). I've also
    heard of a plastic composite wood. The usage I've heard about is for
    decks, but if they make it in the right dimensions it would seem to
    provide a lifetime of use without the normal problems associated with
    regular wooden trim. Course it costs a lot more, but it may be worth it
    in the long run.
    
    	The only reason I can think of why PT wouldn't work is shrinkage. 
    Once it's nailed down well it seems to stay put, but it does shrink a
    lot. If you got dry wood to start with it would probably help a lot,
    especially if you could seal it right away. I've heard two schools of
    thought on sealing PT right away. My guess is that it depends on how
    wet it is to start with. 
    
    	Ray