Conference 7.286::home_work

    It would certainly appear that the only bearing wall is the central
    one running E-W, supporting N-S joists on both sides.
    
    You could probably check this with one of the infamous stud finders
    discussed at great length elsewhere in this file.
    
    (The other possibility being E-W joists plus a girder spanning the
     opening to the den, in which case your little wall WOULD be a
     bearing wall unless the girder is sufficiently hefty to span the
     entire distance - unlikely.)
    
    The only other potential problems are more remote, but should be
    checked:
    
    1) The little wall might be providing some support to your North
       wall (I just assumed without any particular basis that North
       was Up in your diagram...):  houses do need some such support
       to prevent "racking".  I can't think of any way to check this
       without removing the wallboard and seeing if diagonal braces
       have been set in.
    
    2) The little wall might have another wall directly above it on
       the second floor:  if THAT is a bearing wall, then the little
       wall is also; if not, then there SHOULD be a double joist in
       the first floor ceiling at that point anyway, and the little
       wall can go.
    
    Of course, if you can get under the first floor and find that
    there's no special support (other than a doubled joist) for the
    little wall, you're home free, as it CAN'T be a bearing wall.
    
    		- Bill
    

    Go into the basement and see if there are lally columns (or something
    similar) that are directly below it.  If there are, then it is a
    bearing wall (assuming your builder didn't just put up lally columns
    up for fun :-)).
    
    -al

    
    If it is constructed with 2x3's, the total thickness of the wall
    will not exceed 4�" (including �" wallboard on both sides), and
    it cannot be a load-bearing wall. If it is constructed with 2x4's,
    the total thickness will be 5�", and you will have to check further,
    as described previously.

    In concert with .1 essentially.  Go into the cellar and check the
    floor joists under the wall.  If they run N/S and are only doubled,
    the wall is probably not load bearing.  
    
    Check the floor joists over the short wall (where the load is coming
    from). If they go N/S, parallel with your wall, and are 'hung' on
    a central partition running through the center of the house, it's
    definitely not load bearing.
    
    Caution:  I've done 'rennovation' in older houses that had similar
    partitions that were not truly load bearing. When the walls were
    removed, floors and doors in the general area did shift around a
    bit.
    
    Let us know what you find..		/rb
    

    .3 is incorrect   In any new contruction (last 20 years)  a wall
    made of 2x4s with 1/2" sheetrock on both sides will be ~ 4.5" thick
    MAX. One made of 2x3s is 1 inch narrower. This doesn't mean much
    though because there may be many non load-bearing walls in you house
    with none of them with 2x3s. 
    
       All you have to know is which way the joists are running either
    under or over (doesn't matter which) the wall you wish to take out.
    If the joists are running the same way as the wall it isn't load
    bearing. The only exception to this is if the joists UNDER it are
    doubled and supported.
    
     To tell you the truth I can't imagine that this is a load-bearing
    wall, because of it's placement.
    
    			Hope this helps,
    				Kenny
     

    Thanx to all for the hints on what to look for.
    
    1) The house is a baby.  1.5 years old.
    
    2) The Joists in the basement run in Bill's terms' North-South.
    
    3) The wall is 4.5 inches thick.
    
    4) There is no extra support in the way of lally columns or extra
       joists.
    
    5) There is a wall directly above this wall on the second floor.
    
    Therefore, ipso facto, abra cadabra, NOT a bearing wall and I will
    gleefully hack it to pieces this weekend. And hopefully NOT watch
    the house sag.
    
    Thanx again.  -Bruce

This is a little late, but the first time I chopped down a wall wanted 
to turn it into a 1/2 height wall.  So... after determining all the 
outlets were below the level I wanted to remove I started chopping away.

Oops...  I was a novice and didn't realize almost ALL wires are run from 
the top down!  Boy was I surprised.

Anyhow in your case can I assume you first verified there are no outlets to 
deal with?  I'm not really sure what one does when there are outlets 
unless you can trace the offending wires back to a know box and 
disconnet them there.  It is certainly a no-no to just cut them and 
cover them up.

-mark

    
    
    	First entry for a new first time homeowner.  The kitchen is
    arranged in a way that should allow for some small interior doorway
    walls (for doors that are no longer there) to be knocked out to
    greatly expand usable space in the room.
    
    	What I need to know is if knocking these walls out will cause
    structural sagging, is support of some sort needed? Who could look
    at this and tell me what I need, an Inpector/contractor?  It seems
    to me that the walls aren't doing much, but I would like an expert
    opinion first.
    
    	Sure you will hear more from me.
    
    Jon Roskill

 Welcome, Jon--

	You can tell, in *general*, if a wall is a bearing wall (that is, it's
required to support something else) by checking its relationship to the
carrying beam(s) and floor joists in the basement.  Walls running parallel to
(and usually directly over) a CB are usually bearing walls.  Those running
perpendicular to the CB (parallel to the joists) tend to be partition walls
which can be removed if desired.  If you can, study what's going on above the 
wall, too....is it only the attic above?  Is there another wall upstairs
right over the one you're contemplating removing?  Answering these questions can
help in your determination, too.

	If you've made a decision but you're still not sure, call in a
competent carpenter to get his opinion.  Should you want to cut holes in a
bearing wall, he could determine what size beams would be required to support
the load that the wall used to support.  My experience is that Inspectors 
1.) are difficult to get hold of, and 2.) won't offer the type of advice 
you're looking for.

	Good luck					--Mike

My experience also is that you can tell a lot by looking at it. We
recently took the sheetrock off a wall to discover that the wall ended
below the wallboard that was nailed to the bottom of the joists. Since
supporting walls don't (usually) rest on wallboard, we knew we could
take the wall out.  Also, our examination showed that the joist went
from front to back and were supported by the foundation and a beam
running down the middle of the house lengthwise.  The beam was 
obviously larger than other structures, and had vertical supports
(round steel poles) every few feet or so.  Thus, almost every interior
wall was dispensible.  Take a good look at how your house is
constructed- the answers to your concerns may become obvious. 

    
    	First question..Is your home a ranch? How old is it?
    
    	2nd...If its got another story above it, an 8' span is the
    	most I'd go without a major load bearing vertical.
    
    	Many of the newer houses, ranches in particular have truss
        construction and can stand longer spans ...in fact, many 
    	have none and you can lay out the rooms any way you like.
    
    				___GM___
    

don't forget wires and plumbing.  just because there's no weight on the wall
doesn't mean that there aren't other considerations too...

-mark

    re .3, here is the info on spans for headers:
    
    HEADER SIZE		WHAT IS ABOVE THE WALL:			GARAGES, WALLS
    (DOUBLED)		ROOF	ONE STORY	2 STORIES	NOT SUPPORTING 
								FLOORS OR ROOFS

    ===================*=========*==============*================*=================
    2X4			4'	-		-		6'
    2X6			4'-6'	4'		-		6'-8'
    2X8			6'-8'	4'-6'		-		8'-10'
    2X10		8'-10'	6'-8'		4'-6'		10'-12'
    2X12		10'-12'	8'-10'		6'-8'		12'-16'
    
    this is for lumber headers, number 2 or Standard Grade Lumber. 
    Number three grade lumbe may be used with "appropriate design" -
    but they don't say what that is!
    

RE:1536.5 

	Hi Reed -

	     This kind of information is real useful, I am putting in a loft
	and need to know what kind of beam I need to support the floor for
	a ~20 ft. span.  Would you be willing to share your source for this
	kind of information.  I'm assuming you have some kind of a builder's
	reference book.

						Thanks Randy

    I am planning on expanding my kitchen area which is quite small
    now.  The problem being is the wall that seperates the kitchen 
    from where I want to expand is a load bearing wall.  We want to
    take this wall down and add a breakfast nook.  What type of 
    support or beam must be used?  Has anyone done this sort of  project
    or am I looking for trouble by wanting this done?
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated
    
    DAN  232-2622   SIOUXI::STEWART
    

    It can be done.   A header beam is needed to carry the load.  We
    are going to have the same thing done in our home.  Our current
    kitchen area which we are going to open up is about 11 feet.  I
    don't know the exact dimensions, but our header will hang down
    from the existing ceiling about 10 inches.  We are having a builder
    do ours.

    best bet, get an engineer over there, he'll make the right
    recommendations around what support you need. also if you
    decide on selling it, it will be much more appealing
    to the buyer, to know it was done right. 
    nothing is impossible, it may just cost like
    hell$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
    
    jim.

    Depends on how big the opening is, how the house is built 1 or 2
    levels,ect. I checked into this a year ago and found out I needed
    a steel beam to span the 8' width I wanted which was BIG $$$.
    
    -j
    

I just did this last summer.  I needed to eliminate a 12' span and the solution
that was presented by my architect (and structural engineer) was a 1/2" piece of
angle iron, 4" at the base and 8" high.  That is then bolted to the 2X10 header
which holds up the second floor and held up by 2 4X4 posts.  The real neat this
about this is that you never even see the supporting structure since the 4X4
is buried in the outer walls and the angle iron is covered by the ceiling so 
that you can get a big span on uninterupted ceiling.  If you do want to put in a
beam for looks, you can and don't have to worry about the structural 
implications.

Cost?  The place I got it from I felt was cheating me.  The beam itself was a
	little over $100 but he charged me close to another $100 to cut it,
	drill a few holes and deliver it.

-mark

The following diagram is slightly out of scale, but I think you'll get the idea.

				     +------+
				     |      |
				     |      |
				     |      |+-+
				     |      || |
				     |      || |
				     |      || |
				     |      || |
				     | 2X10 || |
				     |      || |
				     |      || |
				     |      || |<------------ angle iron
				     |      || |
				     |      || |
				     +------+| |
			-------------++------+ |
				     ||	       |
			Strapping    |+--------|
			-------------+
			-------------+
				     |
			Blueboard    |
			-------------+

    re .-1
    
    You don't say whether this is a single level or a floor above.
    
    re .-2
    
    I'm looking at removing ~12 to 16' of wall which probably means
    steel.  I have bedroom above.  How much is big $$$ that you mentioned?

    
    There is a bedroom above the section I want taken out.  It is a
    span of about 12'.  The problem is the other half of the wall is
    already taken out.
    
    DAN
    

    I picked up a couple of used steel beams last year at the F&D Salvage
    Yard in Worcester Mass. and it wasn't too bad considering the benifits
    that an open space can provide. I paid $350 for 2 beams and it cost
    an additonal $50 to get someone to delivery them.
    
    - 14" X 25' I-Beam for a garage, Its a 2 car garage with a full
    room above with NO poles to bang your car door on. $225

    - 8" X 18' I-Beam for a 20 X 18 family room with a full basement.
    I now have a 20 X 18 work shop with NO poles to watch out for. $125

    Charly

    I also have Steel I beams  in a new addition/garage. Garage
    is 22 feet long by 24 wide, with no poles to bang your car 
    door into. The builder said the Steel beam cost about $300.
    
    We also used steel I beam to open up the side of the original house
    to the new family room. This 8ft span was load bearing for the 
    orginal house and then we attached the peak of the new addition
    to the same wall. We used a 8" I beam.
    
    Btw.. I had to drill some holes in it myself and it was not all
    that difficult.

    I needed a 10" I beam as the wall I wanted out was a main load bearing
    wall the price was $400+ with delivery extra. I would have needed
    to hire 8 gorillas to carry it in and put it into place which would
    have added another $400. Some walls were not meant to be moved mine
    one seems to be one of them.
    
    -j
    

I'm a bit curious about using I-Beams.  How does one hide the beam after it is
in place?  Are you covering it in pine or some other wood?  What do you have to
nail to?

-mark

    Re: Nailing into a steel I-Beam.
    
    What we did to provide a nailing surface on the I-Beam was to fasten a
    2 X 8, flat side down, to the top of the beam using carriage bolts
    every 3 or 4 feet. This provided some wood to toe-nail the floor joists
    to. My beams are in the cellar and garage, so they are exposed and will
    remain that way. They can be hidden by boxing them in with wood or
    sheetrock, or they could be hidden behind a ceiling if space allows. 
    
    Charly

               
      8 inch I-beam v
       ______ _____                This is how we boxed in the I beam
        ---  | ---                 for the opening for the family room.
        | |  | | |                 Above the beam(not shown) was the
        | |  | | | < 2 x 8         top sill plate (I believe) for the
        | |  | | |       v         wall that was removed.   The ends
        ___  | ___       v         of the 2x8 were toenailed into the
        _____|_____      v         2x4's at each end. The bottom 2x8
        -----------      v         was also toenailed to a 4x6 that
        |         |< < < v         was used to hold the whole thing
        -----------                up.
    
    I also drilled 4 holes through the bottom 2x and the I beam and
    used lag bolts going onto the upper 2x to tie it all together.
    The whole thing was then covered with blueboard and we are awaiting  
    for plastering.
    
    
    one major gotchya though... 
    The I beam was wider than a standard 2 x 4 wall. We had to run
    2x4, like strapping on the new wall in the family room. This was
    no problem because it was new construction. Different if both
    walls were finished.  
                   
    
    

    Steel beams are the old fashioned way of supporting loads. Why not
    use the "new" laminate beams. They will span a great distance when
    you double them up. I forget the thickness, but I know they are 10"
    wide and can be purchased in many different lengths. Also you have
    no problems finding a nailing surface!

    I looked into using these at my local lumberyard (Chagnon's Nashua,
    NH) and they were not all that impressive.
    
    I have the spec sheet somewhere at home.  I'll see if I can find
    it tonight.  At the time I was very disappointed after seeing them
    used on hte 'Norm and Bob' show.

    There are (at least) two distinct types of laminated beams.  One
    looks like 2x4's laminated on top of one another and can be quite
    ornate.  (I've seen some huge examples in the ceilings of swimming
    centers, ice arenas, etc.).  I had also checked in at Chagnons in
    Nashua and this is the type they carry.  The other is a laminated
    plywood-like beam.  The company I'm familar with sells them in 1&3/4"
    thickness by varying heights.  They are referred to as MICRO=LAM
    beams from the TRUS JOIST corporation in Boise, Idaho.   They are
    available in the following heights: 9&1/2", 11&7/8", 14", 16", and
    18".  Depending on your application you can bolt several of them
    together to meet your needs.  In my project I bolted 3 pieces 18"x24'
    to use as the center beam of my garage with a large workshop overhead.
    The beam allowed me to eliminate lally columns in the middle of
    my garage and still provide enough support for the room above.
    For anyone desiring more information on the MICRO=LAM beams the
    address is:
               TRUS JOIST Corporation
               9777 W. Chinden Blvd.
               P.O. Box 60
               Boise, Idaho  83707
               208-375-4450
    
    In New Hampshire, only Gerrity Lumber in Rochester, and someone
    in the Keene area carried them last summer.  I live in Merrimack
    and Gerrity makes deliveries in this area.
    
    ps. Depending on size, lift them in place and them bolt them together.
    
    -Stan

    I am alos considering doing the same thing as the base note - opening
    up a kitchen by removing 12 feet of a load bearing wall that has
    a bedroom above it.  Since I do not want to end up with a split
    level I will consult an architect/engineer but what I'd like to
    do is to use 8X8 oak beams for support, one along the ceiling and
    one on each side for support.  Anyone know if this is possible?
    Will the beams be strong enough?  Can you even buy an oak beam in
    that size? 
    
    George

    There are standard tables which will state the size of the beam
    required to support the load you want.  I will try to find it and
    post it here.  As to the availability of the beams... No problem.
    I am in the process of designing a timberframe home and it will
    require even larger beams.  Locally (at least to me...), 8X8 beams
    are available at Wilkin's Lumber in Milford NH.  If I remember prices
    correctly a 12' 8X8 would run about $30.00 for oak.  Remember though
    that these timbers weigh a ton (almost literally!).  I would suggest
    that you call ahead since you would want seasoned wood for this
    application.  The wood should season for at least a year prior to
    use.
    
    Dan

    Re: .16
    
    Seeing that the building inspector is going to be the final judge
    on this, (assuming you're going to pull a permit) why not give him 
    a call?  We did something similar (removed a 12' load bearing wall) 
    and were told to use 3 2X12's for the main support beam, to be on
    the safe side.  This was eventually boxed in and sheetrocked/plastered.

    Of course, this might be a totally different matter seeing as this
    was an outside wall.
    
    					Steve

    Got another question on load bearing walls (yeah, I know - ask the
    building inspector.  I plan to but thought i'd put it here for
    informational purposes since I didn't see it covered in other related
    topics).
    
    I understand that a load bearing wall is a wall that runs perpendicular
    to the joists/rafters and offers support for such.  However, there
    is a wall that I want to remove to open up the upstairs stairway (house
    is a cape) that is parallel to the joists but has a bedroom wall above
    it which is also parallel to the rafters.  In othere words one wall
    is directly above the other and they both run in the same direction.
    In conventional platform framing would this be a bearing wall for the 
    upstairs wall?  Neither wall is a load bearing wall for the rafters or 
    joists.

	Second question, the first floor and basement stairways run
    over one another in the middle of the house.  At the bottom of the 
    basement stairway are 2 4X4 posts, one on each side of the stairs.
    Would these be load bearing posts for the upstairs stairway.  Both
    stairways run parallel to the joists.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    	Usually a dead give away for a load bearing wall that runs
    parallel to the joists is either doubled up joists or two joists
    sandwiched together by 2x4's, sort of similar to headers for doors
    and windows.  Check the joists under the wall in question and see
    if there is anything different than the other joists.
    
    	Stairways.  I'd say it's fairly possible that this is the case
    since the landing for the top set of stairs would have no other
    support.

    re: .19
    How can you remove the wall, on the first floor, to open up an
    upstairs stairway; and not the one on the 2nd floor that is directly
    above it?
    
    Alan

re .21
    
        Everything is sheetrocked so I can't tell for sure but what I'm
    expecting to find is framing like this for the stair well wall:
    
       		=========================
    		|	|	|	|
		|	|	|	| bedroom wall
    		|	|	|	|
    		|	|	|	|
    		=========================
    		+++++++++++++++++++++++++  floor joist
    		=========================
    		|	|	|	|
    		|	|	|	|
    		|	|	|	| Downstairs wall
    		|	|	|	|
    		=========================
    
    In other words, the two walls are not attached to each other.  With
    the wall finished it does look like one large wall - from the stair
    side.  From the dining room side it just looks like a normal ceiling
    height room divider.
    
    George

    Thinking about it alittle more Alan I think I understand your confusion
    which is caused by my poor explanation.  I want to open the stairway
    only � way to match the opening on the other side that opens onto
    the living room:
    
      
          from this                to this    
    	||------||		||--------||		|| = walls
    	||------||		||--------||	   ------- = stairs
    	||------||		||--------||		\ = railing
    	||------||		||--------||
    	||------\		 /--------\
    	||------\		 /--------\
    	||------\		 /--------\
    	||------\		 /--------\
    
    Hope that makes it clearer.
    
    George

    Usually a stairway opening is boxed in with 2x10's (or whatever
    the joist size is for your house).  The upstairs part of the wall
    would sit on this and the downstairs wall would sit on the downstairs
    floor.  After it was wallboarded, it would look like a continuous
    wall, but structurally, it would be two separate walls:
    
    
    	|	|	|	| Upper wall
    	|	|	|	|
    --------------------------------
             Stairway "box" (2x10)
    ________________________________
    	|	|	|	|
    	|	|	|	| Lower wall
    	|	|	|	|        
    
    Bob

    Okay, now I get it.
    
    Structurally, it could be a load bearing wall. However, it shouldn't
    be. The easiest way to tell is to look in the basement under the
    wall and see if it is supported there. If there is special support
    under the wall it is, most likely, load bearing, if not, not.
    
    Normal stairway framing includes doubled or tripled joists with
    doubled headers, the whole thing being supported the same way any
    other joists are. And quite often the top of the stairway is
    directly over the central load bearing wall.

    If you open up the plaster there is a way to tell for sure that
    it is not load bearing.
    If the wall is stick framed and has only a single top plate
    it its not load bearing. All stick framed loadbearing walls
    require a doubled top plate. Unfortunately, some builders use
    double top plates on certain types of partitions (non-load bearing)
    too.
    
    Alan
    
    
    
    Alan

    I'm planning to put in a steel beam header in my house and I need
    some help in sizing it.  Basically, I'm planning to open up the
    kitchen to the family room and, since I have a 2nd floor up above
    (the bathroom) as well as the roof, I will be needing a fairly hefty
    beam to carry the load.  The span of the beam will be approx. 13'
    (12'9" to be more exact).
    
    I've looked in the Code and the bloody thing only went as far as
    a 10' span for beams with 1 story above them.  (For reference, the
    table that contains the info is Table 2103.4 "Maximum Allowable
    Spans for Headers for Bearing Walls".)  I called one of the Framingham
    Building Inspectors about this and he said that anything greater
    than what's shown in the book is in the realm of the
    architect/engineer.  (I should have known, I could hear his knuckles
    dragging on the floor.)
    
    Does anyone have any advice on steel beams or companies that could
    answer this question for me?  Also, what does the "jr" mean in the
    dimensions listed for a steel beam shown as "7x2 and 1/8 jr"?
    
    Any comments and suggestions will, of course, be appreciated.
    
    ALfonso

    Have you thought about taking the measurements for a 3 foot and
    10 foot and adding them together with extra for good measure?  I
    don't know if this would apply here, but it often works in other
    applications.
    
    Ed..
    

something I'd suggest looking into is the shape of the beam you want.  when I
had a structural engineer come over to do some sizing for me I was quite 
surprised aT the various sizes and shapes.  For example, in my 12 foot span
than hold up the second floor he suggested angle iron.  This stuff is 4"
across, 8" high and 1/2" thick.  One of the reasons for this shape is that it
can be completely hidden when butted up against a 2X10.

Structural steel also comes in tradition I-Beams as well as U channels which
can fit around the beams.

-mark

    Rather than cheat (and have my wife skin me alive if something
    happens), I think I will have to cough up the money for an engineer
    to do the analysis properly.  Does anyone have any recommendations
    for engineers in the Framingham/Sudbury area?
    
    ALfonso

    Re: .26
    
       I helped my father do exactly what you are planning. We removed
    the load bearing wall and left temporary supports in place. We then
    used a hydraulic  jack and strain gage to jack each temporary support
    and find out the load.
       
       The next step was to size the beam. We were able to find specs.
    for wooden beams. The proper size was very expensive (the span was
    about 20 feet). We then looked at scrap steel beams. What we found was
    a scrap beam, longer than we needed, and rated at ten times our
    load. The price was a joke, something like $20.  This was a Victorian
    house, so there was plenty of room in the ceiling for this big beam.
    
       So we bought this dirty, slighty rusty I beam. We cut it to length,
    cleaned it up, cut a hole in the side of the house, shoved the beam
    in, and hoisted it into place. 
    
    I don't know of any areas around MA that sell scrap steel beams.
    But you should be able to find one that is far stronger than you need.     

    Re NOte .30
    
    Thanks for the info.  Rather than going through the strain gauge
    routine, I think the load approximations for a header sitting below
    a second floor and a roof are, by now, well known.  After all, the
    code lists the necessary sizes but only to a limited span, after
    that the building inspector told me to talk to an engineer.
    
    I will look into scrap metal since that seems to be a fairly
    inexpensive solution to the header piece. 
    
    Alfonso

I'm not sure I'd go the strain gauge route since it does't take into account
snow loading.

For what it's worth (and I discussed this elsewhere around a year ago) I had to
remove 19' of a back wall supporting a second floor.  The I-Beam required would
have been 19" high and weighed over 500 lbs!!!  I looked into a laminated beam
and that would have to be 26" high (and cost $900)!!!

What I wound up doing instead was to build a wooden truss into the second floor
wall.

    Huh?  One of the reasons to use steel is that it's unbelievably
    stronger than wood size-per-size.
    
    I've used 12" I beams to span 35' in a similar situation to yours.
    The size was computed by a structural engineer and passed by the
    building inspector (and jumping up and down in mid span felt like
    jumping on a rock).

    A 12" I beam to span 35'?  Did you take into consideration that
    there is a second story above it?  My notes on the code show that
    a 7 x 2 1/8 steel beam has a 10' span limit under that constraint.
    Are you sure we're talking the same thing here?
    
    ALfonso

    re.-1
    Don't forget the pound per foot rating.  You can have a 8" beam
    at, let's say 60 pounds per foot.  It will have the same span strength
    as a 12" at 36 pounds per foot (good number).  However, you pay
    for the pounds (0.50 per), so if you have lots of bucks you will
    have a smaller box around the beam.
    
    Dave

I got my data from a structural engineer too.  I guess part of it depends on
the specifics of your own house.  In my case I was removing 35' off the back
of the first floor of my house!  12' of it were spanned by a piece of 4X18 1/2"
angle iron (the reason for the angle iron being it could be hidden in the 
ceiling whereas I-beams cannot.  Perhaps when taking this into account (the fact
that the main structure of the house has been significantl altered) the
engineer felt that the bigger beam for the 19' span was warrented.

One last note, that section of roof is one straight run about 20X30 supported 
in the middle by the beam.

-mark

    Rather than removing an entire supporting wall in my basement,
    I would like to open up about a 12' section. the wall is 21'
    long and there are two stories above it. Is there any rule of
    thumb as to how wide of a span can be opened.
    
    I would like to avoid using any lally columns if possible.
    
    your input is appreciated.
    
    Drew
    

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    Also a bit late, but for the benefit of other poor souls . . . heed
    [.-1]!  This past weekend, having determined that I had a
    non-loadbearing, non-wired wall, I began hacking at it - only to
    discover that there were two heating pipes in it.  Fortunately, the
    chainsaw didn't hit them 8^) . . . However, it DID necessitate a last
    minute change of plans.

A two-story addition is now tacked onto my house and a 13' section of exterior
wall on the second floor is to be removed for the new master bedroom (90% of
the room is in the new addition, and 10% in the old house). 

I'm now faced with two basic options in place of this load-bearing exterior
wall that  needs to carry the original house joists, and the new addition
joists, as well as a few roof rafters. These 12" joists currently lap each
other. 

	1. A triple 12" microlam under the joists. This means having a boxed-in
	   beam in the room. Ceilings are about 8'... so 7' under the box.
	   This is the cheap, ugly method.

	2. A triple 12" microlam let-in beam. This means alot of additional
	   labor to cut-up/replace additional plaster to have access to both
	   sides of the beam, and cutting with precision each joist and
	   affected rafter with little access room (there is roof/sheathing/
	   etc just above). This will cost me $1800 though! A small 1" max
	   bump in the ceiling remains.

What would you do in this situation? Go for the let-in? Anybody ever deal
with a situation like this? Anyways to make a let-in like this easier? It
seems a chainsaw might be required, and alot of nails are gonna be hit.
Is there some other way to carry the load?

Any comments appreciated!

[btw, one thing that might make things actually easier is that the exterior
	wall is double-2x4-studded with 1 1/2" gap for a total of 8 1/2"]

    
      What is your definition of a let in beam?
    
      The way I see it is you have 12" rafters coming from both sides
    ending at or near the old wall? You certainly can't cut the beam, so
    you can lay the rafters on it as you said and lose a foot of headroom
    there or you can cut them to end at the beam and use joist hangars on
    both sides to connect them to the beam.
    
      I'm curious why you have 12" rafters on the ceiling of the second
    floor? It would seem you may have a good bit coming together in that
    one area.
    
      Using a chain saw in a house is great! You can do all sorts of cuts
    that are really hard or tricky with other tools. The only problem is
    the smoke. What I do is start it up outside and get it warmed up and
    revved a few times to clean out the excess smoke. Then shut it off,
    bring it in, do the job and shut it off right away. If you're going to
    be hitting nails, you don't want to use a chain saw. A sawsall with a
    bimetel blade will be better - though it can't get into corners as well
    as a chain saw.
    
    				Kenny

>      What is your definition of a let in beam?

My definition sounds the same as yours: cut away enough of the joist
ends to fit in a beam with joist hangers, as you might have done if
everything was being constructed from scratch. Just that the joists
are cut after-the-fact while in place.

>      I'm curious why you have 12" rafters on the ceiling of the second
>    floor? It would seem you may have a good bit coming together in that
>    one area.

You mean why 12" lumber instead of 8" or 10"? true, its not carrying any
floor loads, but it is spanning about 14' or so. It also allows for more
insulation.

I think there are gonna be a great deal of nails. The joists from the old
house must each have 2-4 16-penny's toe-nailing into the old (but removed)
top plate.

Thanks for the chain-saw tips.... do they make a bimetel chain?

    Why a chain saw? I would think a recip saw would do just fine and 
    create less of a mess. Use a demolition type blade (course) and 
    you'll cut any nail in the way. A chain might break injuring you
    or get stuck then you'll have a real problem.
    
    Ray
    

      Ok, I wouldn't call that let in at all. Let in is when you take away
    some of the wood and *insert* one piece part way into another. Like a
    mortise but with one side open.
    
    Ok, now that I understand that. No, I don't think there's any other
    shortcuts. But how about this - instead of just boxing in the beam,
    might there be ways you could work it *into* the design? In other
    words, maybe don't conceal it, make it part of the 'look' of the area?
    Its at least something else to think about.
    
      No, they don't make bimetal chain saw chain. I *think* I once saw
    chain that was made for more rough work, but even it I did, you really
    don't want to use a chain saw around nails. It dulls the blade
    *instantly* if you hit one.
    
      Make sure if you do butt the joists to the beam, you do use joist
    hangars. Toenailing has very little strength, especially for withdrawal
    loads which you would have lots of there.
    
    				Kenny

>      Make sure if you do butt the joists to the beam, you do use joist
>    hangars. Toenailing has very little strength, especially for withdrawal
>    loads which you would have lots of there.
    
    How tight a fit do you need between the joist and the beam?
    
    The reason I ask is that if you need a tight fit, its gonna be very
    hard to make sure all the cuts line up straight enough (in two planes:
    parallel to the beam, and perpendicular-up the beam) to allow
    the beam to be moved up into place while having a tight fit. If
    more slop is allowed, say 1/4" to an occasional 1/2", say, it would
    be alot easier to get that beam up into place.
    
    yep, joist hangars are a given...
    

    
      Difficult to line up the cuts? I disagree. I have done similar things
    many times. Once you know where the beam is going, mark a line at each
    end and snap a chalk line across the bottoms of all the rafters. Then
    use a square on each to mark the line to be cut starting at the chalk
    line and going up. (Of course you need to temporarily brace under all
    the rafters as close as practical to where they are being cut until the
    new beam is supporting them.)
    
      With joist hangars you do not have to be perfect, since the weight is
    born mostly at the bottom of the hangar and held by nails on the sides.
    Though I wouldn't want more than around a 1/4 inch or so of space.
    
    				Kenny

    Thanks! This is definitely helpfull...
    
    The work will start tomorrow, and I'm told will take about 2 days.
    The framer is shying away from chainsaw use, and expects to use
    a sawsall with a blade that can handle the nails.
    

    
    I am planning to do some remodeling and repairing on my house. I've called
    5 contractors/carpenters. 3 returned my call and setup appointments.
    Only one actually show up. The other 2 didn't even call back after
    missing the appointment. The one who show up said he was going to send
    me a estimate. It's been 2 weeks now, and still have not heard from
    him.
    
    Well, I am thinking of doing some small job myself while I am waiting
    for the contracters feedback.
    
    One of the job is to knock down the wall between a regular size bed-room
    and a smaller size bed-room to make it a good size bed-room. The wall
    is not a load bearing wall and is on the 2nd floor below the attic.
    So it doesn't need reinforcement after the wall removal. I've never
    tear a finished wall down (I did remove some wall partitions in the
    basement, but they are not finished wall). How easy ( or difficault ) 
    would it be ? Do I just use crowlbar/hammer to hammer the wall down ?
    Is there anything I have to watch out for ? 
    
    There is a electrical outlet on each side of the wall. Can I just remove 
    the fuse from the fuse box and then disconnect the wire and cab each
    wire with one of those plastic wire cab ?
    
    If anyone one know a good carpenter in the Medford area ( 5 miles north
    of Boston ) who can take some carpentry jobs the next few weeks. Please
    send me a note. I can use some help.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Ken
    

    You can not just cap the electric wires.  Open the wall and see were
    they go.  You may get lucky and they go back to the load bearing wall. 
    At that point you could put a receptable box and end the line.  You may
    be in the middle of a loop in which case you will have to re-root it to
    carry the balance of the line.  
    
    The wall is the easy part the electric is your problem.  If unsure get
    someone who knows.
    
    Doug

The term is you cannot "bury" an elecrtical connection. You will need
to fish the wires to a spot where you can put an "old work" box in
and then connect or terminate them and put a blank plate on the box.


David Floyd
DTN 225-4627

    re electric:  True, one cannot bury a connected electric wire.  But
    is it legal to leave a completely disconnected wire in the walls?
    E.g. suppose that this particular wire serves no other circuits --
    would it be legal to remove it from the fuse box and clip it off where
    it disappears into the wall?
    
    re nonbearing wall:  I presume that you've checked that the wall is
    parallel to the ceiling joists -- if it isn't, it might be supporting
    the ceiling, even though it isn't supporting the house load.  That is,
    the joists might not be rated for the full span if they are resting
    on the wall that you plan to remove.
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

    If the wire is disconnected at both ends, you can leave it there.
    
    			Steve

    I was thinking to remove the wall myself. And have an electrician to
    re-rout the electrical wire to the side wall(s). I am going to update
    the electrical services anyway, so will do that at the same time.
    
    Yes, the wall to be removed is parallel to the ceiling joists. The one 
    contractor who came in confirmed that is not a load bearing wall.
    
    Are there any other things that needs to watch out for ? Such as how to 
    prevent ruinning the adjacent wall(s) and ceiling
    

Start out in the middle with a big hammer and end up in the corners 
corners with a small one.

	Seriously, Pull all the base and ceeling trim on the wall to
be removed. Then pull the sheetrock on both sides of the wall. If you
have a sawzall available to you the rest is a piece of cake. Cut the
joists at an angle and the come out real easy. The header and footer
will come up last and will leave the hole you will need to patch.

	DON'T bang on the wall till you get at least one side of the
sheetrock off of it. I have seen lots of unwanted suprises in my
time by just cutting into or beating a hole in a closed wall. Like
water, drain, vent pipes, gas lines and other unknown electrical 
wires. 
	Start slow and when you know the wall is clear, stand back
roll up your shirt sleeves and take a John Henery swing at it. It
is very therapeutic and fun. Let everyone in the family have a swing.
The wall will come down and everyone gets a laugh in the process.

Dave

    
    get yourself a recipracating saw and save time in cleanup in the long
    run.  Dice the wall up sheetrock and all.  Then carry it out in
    sections for the trashman...
    
    JD

    
.5>    Are there any other things that needs to watch out for ? Such as how to 
.5>    prevent ruinning the adjacent wall(s) and ceiling
    
    There are two ways to approach this. I've done both, and these were
    my methods. (Both methods assume you're dealing with wallboard.)
    
    This first approach is to construct a "seamless" area from the two
    original areas. You remove all indications that the wall was ever there.
    To do this, before you start anything else, cut back the wallboard on the
    ceiling and connecting walls on both sides of the to-be-removed wall,
    back to the next available nailing surface. (For a connecting wall,
    remove wallboard back to the next stud. For ceilings, if the strapping
    is parallel to the wall being removed, cut back to the next strap; if
    the strapping is perpendicular to the wall being removed, as it should
    be in your case, remove about 6" next to the wall.) Make these cuts as
    straight and square as possible. Then remove the wall�. What you left
    with is a fairly clean gap separating the existing walls and ceilings,
    somewhere between 12 and 32 inches in width. You've also removed any
    thick deposits of joint compound that were used to construct the
    corners between the removed wall and the remaining surfaces. You have
    plenty of room to install new wallboard into the gap and blend the
    existing surfaces to it.
    
    The second approach is to remove the wall while admitting it was there.
    This is effective when a smaller section of wall is being removed, and
    when the goal is to open up the space in general while preserving the
    identify of the two existing areas. This approach can save an
    *enormous* amount of reconstruction and redecorating work. To do this,
    remove� all but a few inches of the perimeter of the unwanted wall
    (where "a few inches" depends on how you will finish off the wall; read
    this entire paragraph and work it out on paper before cutting). The
    idea is to leave a clean "ridge" of old wall along the ceiling and
    connecting walls. At the connecting walls, you will most likely be left
    with one or two studs of the old wall, encased by the old wallboard.
    Along the ceiling, you may have the ends of many cut studs, also
    sandwiched between old wallboard. Apply 1x4 or 1x5 along the exposed
    wall edges, then finish off with casing on both sides -- just as if you
    were finishing off a doorway. Recarpet, and you're done.
    
    
       �As mentioned elsewhere, wall removal is best done with a
        reciprocating saw. It's a lot less messy, and has much less
        potential to damage the sufraces you want to save.
    
    

    All these statements are good when you have dry-wall [sheet rock]. 
    However in my OLD [expensive] House, everything is lathe & plaster. 
    The only way to remove this is with a bing mess and a LARGE SLEDGE
    hammer.  I have demo'ed 5 of the 7 room house and have completely
    upgraded those rooms, [electric, insulations, windows, etc].  The last
    room I am still finishing and did remove the paper wall between it and
    the next room.  I left a particle knee wall and header to show seperate
    living space but creating the appearence of over-all roominess.  Yet to
    go is the living room, study, bathroom and kitchen.  The later 2 saved
    for last as they will be the most expense in this handyman special
    remodel.
    
    I do agree demo work is a family afair and does relieve tention and
    frustration until.........The Clean Up!!!
    
    Doug

A reciprocating saw makes short work of lath-and-plaster walls.

				Steve

    
    Buy the type of blade that can rip through nails too
    

Use a flat shovel to "peel" the plaster off the lath.  It comes off in chunks
and produces *much* less dust this way.  Also, put a box fan in the window,
blowing out: this will exhaust any dust you do produce out the window.

Once all the plaster is removed and out of the room, then take the lath off.
Keeping the plaster & lath separate makes for a much neater mess.

-Chris

    re: .8  Thanks for the 2 options suggested. I've never thought about
    the second approach which actually may suite my case better cause I may
    want to re-construct the wall back in a few years when my kids finish
    college and move away from home. I will re-read the note again to see
    if I fully understand what it said.
    
    re: .9  I don't know what material the wall is made of. But it has a
    very smooth and hard plaster surface. The plaster is at least 1/4 inch
    thick judging from pulling nails from walls in the other rooms.
    
    I do have a sawzall which will make the job easier.
    
    The two romms has hardwood floor. Does the wall footer usually nailed
    on top of the hardwood floor ? or is it nailed on the sub-floor and
    then lay the hardwood floor arround the wall ?
    
    
    

    Thanks Chris.  I have been remodeling my 125+ year old house for over 4
    years.  In the fifties to old the plaster in place they put up
    paneling.  Over the years the paneling has bellied due to the weight of
    the crumbling plaster.  A coal shovel is no help in removing the
    plaster on the walls.  It does however help in the clean up of the
    floors.  
    
    After last night, I am ready to final sponge the present room to
    prepare for paint, hopefully this weekend.
    
    Doug

    re: .13
    
    The wall is probable tied into the sub floor.  The finish flooring is
    the last thing to be installed in a room.  At least that has been my
    experience in my This Old [expensive] House.
    
    Doug

    If the wood flooring is parallel to the wall that you are removing, you
    might be able to patch the gap by buying new boards -- make sure to
    match the species of wood.  Most wood floors these days are oak, but
    my 1925 house has maple.  The former owners patched in some oak boards
    and it was very obvious.
    
    If the wood flooring is perpendicular to the wall, then perhaps you
    should lay down carpet until you are ready to separate the rooms
    again...
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    You could also put in a wide plank piece with the flooring being 
    perpendicular to it.  It would look good and be a lot cheaper than
    putting in carpeting.  Just match the woods, that's all.  Wood is
    much in vogue these days and lasts and lasts and lasts.  Carpets 
    don't!  

    justme....jacqui