Conference 7.286::home_work

    You need a transfer switch.  There are manual ones and automatic
    ones.  Manual ones are expensive ($275 for 100 amp switches), automatic
    ones are much worse.
    
    They are placed after your meter and before your main breaker. 
    They are also FOOLPROOF so you are not allowed to electrocute
    your friendly power company lineman as he works on the power line.
    
    If you homebrew one, make damn sure that it is absolutely impossible
    to feed your power backwards into your normal drop.  Not only will
    you be trying to light up the world with your little generator;
    you will indeed get the lineman who is trying to fix the problem
    that caused the outage.
    
    If you want more details, look at the NEC or give me a call or send
    me mail.

I would think that the simplest method would be to put in a 30amp 220V circuit 
in your circuit box somewhere and run the wire out to the garage or wherever 
you would be setting up the generator.  Just put a normal wall outlet there.  
Then make yourself a cord with a plug on each end, plug one end into the 
generator and the other into the wall.  To disconnect from the main power line,
just trip the main breaker.  

The one thing that would make this not work is if circuit breakers only allow 
current to flow through in one direction.  Does anyone know if this is a 
problem, or of any other problems with this idea?

Paul

    One additional item:
    
    Is there any way I can set up a good dummy load that will test the
    generator's capacity?  I'd like to give it a good test load to simulate
    what would happen when the surge from the well pump kicks in, without
    actually killing the well pump.
    
    Three toasters and a skill saw under load?
    
    	thanx		Roger B.

You have two things to deal with - the resistive load, and the inductive load. 
Motorized/compressor-ized things (pumps, freezers) represent a fairly inductive 
load, especially when starting up. Toasters on the other hand, make convenient, 
compact loads, but are primarily resistive. Got a three horse motor with a (
physical) load to put on it?

-Scott

    re:.2 
    	  Circuit breakers will work in either direction. This seems
    to be a common hookup method (i.e. mounting a breaker that matches
    the generators output (amp-wise) in your electric distribution box
    so it feeds the boxes' buss bars, therefore distributing power
    throughout ther house). Ofcourse as mentioned earlier,always 
    shut off the main breaker so you don't feed the external power lines.
    
    RE:.3 
          Why a dummy load? Why not just simulate the actual power outage.
    That is, shutoff the main feed, crank up your generator, and turn
    on everything you plan on running off the generator. Then you'll
    know for sure if it can handle it and how certain appliance will
    react to the any surging.
    							/Glenn
    
    

Do this on YOUR appliances if you like. If you generator is putting out 85 
volts under load, I don't want my freezer running on it! I'd use a load that 
was less sensitive to damage from low voltage use than compressors are.

-Scott

    

    The question is still outstanding, what can I use for a dummy load?
    Having an odd 3 horse motor around the house doesn't make it.
    
    	/roger

    Before simply sticking a breaker into your existing panel that matches
    the generators output you'd better check the NEC CODE. You would
    be liable for any injuries caused by an illegal installation. The
    only proper way to hook this up is to use a TRANSFER switch that
    breaks one connection before it makes another. That way it's impossible
    to send your own electricity down the power companies lines.
    
    What I've done is to install several receptacles in strategic locations
    and painted them RED. The RED receptacles are on their own wiring
    and run to the generator in the garage. When needed the
    generator is fired up and the RED receptacles become active. I need
    to physically plug something into a RED receptacle to run in during
    a power outage. I know it appears that I went to a lot of trouble,
    but I didn't have to buy a transfer switch this way.
    
    al
    

    re .2.  Addendum to .1.
    
    >I can't assume that I'll be the one firing up the system however.
    
    Using a common breaker to connect to the generator and expecting
    the main breaker to always be disconnected first is not exactly
    safe unless you are exceptionally careful all the time.  You'll
    be doing the switchover in the dark most likely, etc. etc.
    
    You don't even want a chance of frying the lineman who will be trying
    to fix the problem.  Remember that pole pigs work both ways.  Several
    thousand volts in gives 220 out.  220 in backwards gives several
    thousand the other way.  The only salvation is that you'll probably
    be trying to light up the whole block if you get it wrong, and thus
    hopefully kill the generator or pop your main breaker.
    
    The reason the NEC demands a transfer switch is that it is the only
    really safe way to do it.

    Heating elements (toasters, etc.) make good dummy loads.  You can
    load the system to its horsepower rating without too much trouble
    and not do any damage (toasters don't care about volts).  As far
    as inductive loads go, you can monitor the voltage and current and
    try the well pump, for example.  If the system is maintaining volts
    with about 50% resistive load (for its horsepower rating), you should
    be able to throw on the pump motor and watch the volts.  You're
    not going to damage the pump motor if the volts don't come up within
    5 sec.  Just shut the pump off if the volts sag.  It's a good idea
    to have a resistive load on the system to start with.  It's hard
    for the voltage regulator/governor system to maintain constant volts
    from no load to intermittent inductive loads.
    
    Whatever you do with switching systems, make sure it is a break
    before make.  I have seen breakers explode when someone tried 
    connecting two power sources together that were out of phase.  You
    never know when the power is coming back on.  The expense of having 
    an automatic switchover system is probably beyond the means of many 
    homeowners.  If you arrange it such that it is mechanically impossible
    to connect the two systems together, you're on the right track.
    I like the suggestion of having separate outlets for the E-system.
    
    From there you can design in your power factor improvement circuit
    ;^)

    There was some talk of backup generators in 1309 and the need for
    a transfer switch.
    
    I didn't find what looked like an appropriate keyword to go looking
    under so I am opening a new note.
    
    If anyone is thinking of backup power for their house or whatever
    a transfer switch is an absolute necessity.  Simply shutting off
    the main is not good enough.  The generator must connected through
    a transfer switch to guarentee that the line to the house cannot
    be back fed from the generator.  The result of back feeding the
    line are obvious and fatal to the power company crews.  It could
    very easily end up costing you everything in court.
    
    To save figuring which breakers to shut off and save the cost of
    a huge transfer switch, a friend and I recently did the following.
    Determine what circuits must have backup power.  Figure the load
    requirements of these circuits and buy an appropriate size generator.
    Move these circuits to a new subpanel and run just that panel through
    the transfer switch.  A 30 Amp. transfer switch will run as much
    as $100.00 so you probably don't want to even think about 100 or
    200 Amp. depending upon the size of your main and try to transfer
    the entire house.  
    
    There is also a neat transfer switch on the market.  I believe the
    brand is GENTRAN.  Has individual transfers for one 240v circuit
    and four (?) 120v circuits.  Retails for $200.00+.  I have seen
    then on sale for $180ish.  Semans in Manchester and Ralph Pill in
    Nashua both carry it.
    
    FYI, re: 1309  your electric meter reads watts (Kwh).  You pay for
    true power, the reactive power is 'free' to residential customers.
    
    Peter Duke
    MKO1-1/D28
    WORDS::DUKE
    
    

    I looked at my entrance and if I feed backup power in at
    the breaker panel position near my main, a simple sheet metal
    template would insure that both the main and emergency breakers
    could never be on at the same time.  My main is at right
    angles to the individual circuit breakers.  The template
    would move up and down with the main and be notched such
    that the  emergency feeder could only be on when the main
    is off and the main...
    
    $1 worth of sheet metal might save $$$.
    
    - gerry

I'm told there are generators that come with a plug....

You turn off your mains, and plug the generator into an outlet, and 
that half of your box is energized (good idea to shut off the branches 
you don't need)

Sounds too easy, is it?

    re: .11
    
    Yes and no.  IF you turn off the main breaker, so you don't try
    powering the entire neighborhood with your personal generator,
    it will work fine.  HOWEVER, doing it that way is rather frowned
    upon because of the great danger that you (or somebody else)
    won't turn off the main breaker first and will fry some poor lineman
    up on a pole two streets over working on what he thinks is a dead
    circuit.
    There is a special switch you're supposed to get (a transfer switch?)
    that you can wire into the line coming in from the street, so your
    house either takes power from the street or from your generator,
    but the two can't be connected.  It's not cheap (I've heard in the
    $250 range, and you'd probably need to have an electrician put it
    in), but it's the approved way of doing it.

    re: .11
    
    I'd be surprised if what you say is true, only because such a
    configuration would make the male end of a plug electrically
    energized.  Could lead to interesting results....
    
    Jim

I went generator shopping this weekend, - they all look pretty much
alike to me.  For the 2-2.5KW range within which I am looking, they
range from $500 (TECUMSEH, via C.O.M.B.,) to $900 (HONDA). In-between
are SEARS, ONAN, and WINCO. 

I need 2-2.5KW to support starting current for furnace fan and refrigerator.
Running current should be < 7A.  I want a Large enough gas tank and/or efficient
enough engine for unattended overnight operation.  And, of course, since I'm no
engine mechanic, I need hi-reliability and low maintenance. 

HONDA seems to have a quality edge over the others - is this real, or 
just good marketing?

Any recommendations, pro/con, or related-experiences would be most appreciated. 

Thanx/j

                I, too, could use some help in this area.  All of 
                the  previous  replies    seem    to   deal  with 
                transfer/swithcing systems.  Can somebody help me 
                with the basics:
                
                1.  How big a  generator  would I need to run the 
                well pump, kitchen (electric stove), and furnace.
                
                2.   Would additional capabilities (a  couple  of 
                lights and maybe the TV) add a  greater load;  if 
                so, how much.
                
                3.    Do  electricians come to your home,  survey 
                your needs and make recommendations.
                
                4.   Does the wattage rating really mean anything 
                when you are talking amperage ratings.
                
                5.   Gas, propane or other type of fuel.
                
                6.  How do you know when the power comes back on.
                
                7.  Warranties and repair facilities.
                
                8.  Do I need to build an outside shed to protect 
                the unit from snow, ice, etc.
                
                9.  Recommended brands.
                
                As you can  tell,  I am completely ignorant about 
                what I really need  and  don't  want  to make the 
                fatal  mistake  of  over or  underbuying  for  my 
                needs.
                
                (Don't really care about elec start.   I can pull 
                the cord.)
                
                Thanks for your experiences.
                
                Warren

To run a well pump, a few lights and appliances and the furnace blower you'd
probably be fine with about a 3000 watt generator, 4000 or 5000 if you didn't 
want to worry about the well, the furnace, and the fridge coming on at the same 
time while you were watching TV with some lights on.

I wouldn't want to try to power the electric stove, though.  A resistive load 
like that sucks down a LOT of power.  Consider that the average hand-help hair 
dryer uses over 1000 watts.  A single stove burner probably uses at least 2000-
3000 watts, and just forget about the oven.  You'd be better off spending $30 
on a coleman stove to use on those infrequent occaisons when the power's out.

Paul

I don't have a well, and I have gas stove and furnace.  I want to 
power merely the 5A, 1/4HP fridge, and the 600W furnace fan.  A few 
lights (we have lots of flourescents) and a TV would also be nice.

Am I UNDERPOWERING with only 2KW? (2.2KW peak)?

>Am I UNDERPOWERING with only 2KW? (2.2KW peak)?

Probably not.  The fridge and the furnace together are about 1100 watts, and
flourescent lights draw very little power.  Anybody know how much power a TV 
draws?  It can't be more than a couple hundred watts.

Paul

>>Am I UNDERPOWERING with only 2KW? (2.2KW peak)?
>
>Probably not.  The fridge and the furnace together are about 1100 watts, and
>flourescent lights draw very little power.  Anybody know how much power a TV 
>draws?  It can't be more than a couple hundred watts.

     The generator salesman I talked to said that the starting current 
was several times the steady-state current, especially for a 
refrigerator, which starts with a full load and takes longer to start.
So the real question seems to be about starting currents.  Maybe
you'd get a better answer in the ELECTRO_HOBBY notesfile. 

My thanks to all you kind folk out there who replied (to ELECTRO_HOBBY, 
HOME_WORK, and CONSUMER).  This was a good example of notes files at 
their best, as myself (and at least one other person I know) benefited 
greatly from all the advice.  (As an aside - misc.consumers yielded 
almost no useful info).   Anyway - this is what I did:

After confirming the actual need with a number of neighbors (annual 
outages seem assured), I bought a Honda EB2200X for $800 from Fleet
Electric in Worcester. The EB2200X is the industrial-line equivalent
of the EM2200X which is sold @ most commercial Honda Dealers for 
$875-$900.

Specs:  5HP Overhead Valve
	144cc Displacement
	AC Output: 120V 2200W max (manual says don't run @ peak for
		   (18.3A)		more than 30 min)
		   120V 2000W continuous		   
		   (16.7A)
	Recoil Start
	2.9 gallon tank
	approx 9hrs per tank under full load
	dry weight: 95lbs   20" x 17" x 17"
	
(note, the EM2200X also has 12V output, voltmeter, voltage adjustment, 
 and fuel meter - none of which I though were particularly useful for 
 my purposes)

I chose this model because my priorities were

1) able to do the job 
2) Maximal reliability
3) minimal service
4) minimal cost
5) convenience

1) I am fortunate in that my motor-starting requirements (which, take 
note, really determine how much power you need, all your lights, TVs, 
etc aren't in the same order of magnitude) were limited to 2 1/3HP 
motors (furnace and refrigerator).  With one motor running, and all 
the lights, etc, on, I can't quite start the other motor (voltage 
drops to 80V) - but I decided that was ok - in emergency use, I could 
load balance by hand, i.e., not run the fridge continually, or turn 
off some lights).  Basically, once I get everything started - it 
supports my running load with plenty to spare.  

2,3) In ALL the feedback I got, both in notesfiles and elsewhere, NO ONE
had anything bad to say about Honda generators.  This satisfied the
reliability requirement.  Also - unlike some others I saw, they seem 
not to be designed with the assumption that the owner is a small 
engine mechanic.  The Honda seems virtually foolproof - shuts off before 
it can be damaged (low oil sensor, etc).  BTW: when you're testing 
out what it (or any generator) can do - I suggest you plug a good
Voltmeter into the generator.  The Honda was happy to start my fridge
after it had about 1.2KW running load, and dropping to 80V didn't
bother the Honda, but I'm sure my fridge wasn't pleased.  In fact, 
working it out - the Honda seems conservatively spec'ed.

4,5) I decided not to go up to the next increment (3500W for $1100) 
because, in my case, I was willing to do a little load-balancing, and 
the 3500W was a 200lb 'monster' that didn't run quite as long on 50% 
more gas - the long running time on the honda was a real win from my 
point of view.  Many industrial generators run only 1-2 hours.
Also - i think it will be a plus that the generator can be carried
around (can even store it in my basement for security).   THe other
piece of convenience is that it needs minimal servicing - an oil
change every 50hrs, and a start once per month.  Finally, this one is
fairly quiet, I put it behind my house, couldn't hear it in front
of the house, or in the house for that matter. 

Bottom line: This model seemed like it was designed to meet my purpose
more than any other.  The only trade-off I am making is the 
load-balancing, which is saving me several hundred $.  However, if you 
have more bucks, do look seriously at the Honda 4500 and 5000W EX
models. They have electric start, and can be wired in with a transfer
switch. Then, when power goes out, you just go down stairs, throw a
switch, press a button, and you're back in business...(Ah, to be
rich).  But, as for me.... 


!!!Bring on the storms!!!!		/j


--------------------------------------

PS: Let me put in a plug for John Perry @ Fleet Electric.  Although he 
is a bit more of a salesman than he'd like to admit to, he was really 
quite helpful in taking the time to explain things to me, and seemed 
the most knowledgable of all the places I talked to (all he sells are 
generators). Also - netting shipping against sales tax, he was within 
$30 of the best mail order price I could get. ($810 for the EM2200X)

    
	RE: .20
    
>	They have electric start, and can be wired in with a transfer
>    switch.
    

    But if you had electricity you wouldn't have to start the
    generator! ;-)
    

>>	They have electric start, and can be wired in with a transfer
>>    switch.
>    
>
>    But if you had electricity you wouldn't have to start the
>    generator! ;-)
    
It uses a car battery

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
    
    Is that the reason to start it up every month?  To keep the battery
    charged?  I've never even seen a generator (except in a catalog)
    so sorry for the dumb questions...
    

>    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
>    
>    Is that the reason to start it up every month?  To keep the battery
>    charged?  I've never even seen a generator (except in a catalog)
>    so sorry for the dumb questions...

starting ANY gasoline engine (even your car) once a month is a good 
idea. - just helps maintain 'hi reliability'    

    Has anyone actually had a manual transfer switch installed for a
    generator?
    
    __Rich

re .25

	<Has anyone actually had a manual transfer switch installed for a
	generator?>
    
	Yes, part of the current discussion on PRICE OF A 4-WAY SWITCH
	speaks of such a switch.  DPDT, I think.

	Bill G.

    Most discussions seem to center around a transfer switch between
    the meter and the panel, requiring a 100 amp to 200 amp transfer
    switch. This also requires panel breakers to be shut off, so that
    the generator is not overloaded. A better way (although its more
    difficult to install), is to move critical circuits (i.e. furnace,
    refrigerator/freezer, pump, important lighting, ect.) onto a subpanel
    and connect the transfer switch between the main panel and subpanel.
    This way, when the transfer switch is in the generator position,
    only those circuits that the generator can handle are attached to
    the backup system. When power comes back on, the remaining circuits
    will still be attached to the power line, so you will know when
    power is restored. This method requires a lot more work, but I feel
    its worth it. 
          Re: Outlet to connect generator:
    This creates a safety hazard because the cable coming out of the
    generator will be a male and it can be ***HOT***. If the generator
    is to wired in, a cable should come out of the box and the male
    connector attached to the generator outlet.
    
    Eric
    
    

     It is possible to never expose yourself to the hot male connector by 
removing the plug fuses, connecting up the generator via an extension cord
and the male-male connector, starting the generator, and then throwing the 
switch on the generator.  I realize this is not the best way to do things.

     A related question:  If I put GFCI outlets in my basement, is it 
possible to backfeed through the GFCI from the generator to the house?

    
    Additional conversation on generators can be found in CONSUMER.
    
    I put in a 10kw WINCO, LP powered, with auto transfer switch, auto
    timer (for cycling), and electric start (yeh, 2 @ 6 volt car
    batteries).  I got a real deal on the unit (probably not to be
    repeated) from Fleet Elect. in Worcester, MA.  I'm in the boonies,
    on a mountain and get hit at the darndest times with outages. So,
    for me it was worth it.  I did pick up some good info along the
    way and am willing to discuss sizing, hook-ups, etc. off-line if
    you're interested. 
    
                                 J.T.B.

    Saw this generator entry and thought I would insert my note from
    the Tools note file.
    
               <<< DELNI::WORK$01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]TOOLS.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Tools and Handy Gadgets >-
================================================================================
Note 55.15                         Generators                           15 of 15
AIMHI::WAGNER                                        24 lines  20-JAN-1988 12:45
                         -< I found a generator !!!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well Folks, I finally found my generator. I didn't realize it was
    so long ago that I first put in the note. 
    
    A 12KW single phase 220 unit with a Wisconson 4 banger (air cooled). It
    LOOKED in really ratty condition but for $300 I couldn't pass it up. 
    
    I took it to the shop and cleaned it up, new muffler, ignition,
    oil, battery and it looks brand new (about $120 in parts)
    
    This thing has never been run for any period of time. The commutator
    was absolutely clean and not a scratch. 
    
    It is now running great..(but it is really loud. I have to put on
    a larger muffler).
    
    Now to build my slab and find a transfer switch.. 
    
    Any ideas on where to find a switch which is priced reasonably ??
    Current estimates are approximately $500 to $700. There must be
    used ones floating around somewhere. 
    
    ===========================
    
    I am really looking for info on where to find a REASONABLY priced
    transfer switch. Now that the generator is functional I have to
    finish "the rest of the story".
    
    Merle
    
    Merle
                                              
    
    

    Square-D and Allen & Bradley make transfer switches both are fairly
    expensive but top quality. The major expense seems to be the silver
    contacts used in the switches some with 3-5 oz of silver....
    You might be able to buy the switch yourself at an electrical wholesaler
    I've bought at one here in the springs several times just by wearing
    my badge and placing it on a cash ticket. Never been questioned.
    
    -j
    

I had planned to build an enclosure with a large open door attached to 
the back of my house for my generator, so that I could store it there, 
and then just open the door and run it (thinking of a cube about 4' 
square).  But, I just got this 'data' from John Perry at Fleet
Electric: 

1) DO NOT OPERATE your generator in any enclosure. Operate it only
OUTSIDE, otherwise it may overheat from bad ventilation.  This means
DO NOT run it in your garage, DO not run it in any 5-sided enclosure,
etc.  If its raining, and you can't get a non-sided roof over it, run
it in the rain, the heat will dissipate the moisture. 

2) Storing it outside (under a roof) is OK.  Addition rust from 
humidity, etc (compared to garage or inside storage) will maybe make 
it last only 25 years as opposed to 30.

anyone care to comment?

re .-1:

Maybe build your enclosure with swing-out side panels and a hinged roof
panel so that when you need to run it you can open it up for good
ventilation?

/Dave

   *** I originally posted the following note in the Electro_hobby ***
   *** conference and thought that it might be useful here.        ***
   
    I installed the Gentran transfer switch myself and it was relatively
    easy.  It installs on the load side of the individual circuit breakers
    for which you want back-up power.  That means that if you throw
    the main house breaker AND keep your hands away from the cables
    coming in from the electric meter, you should be safe enough if
    you want to install it yourself.  The 5000 watt model with twin
    watt meters and 240v capability cost me a little under $200 dollars
    about 2 years ago.  Many electrical supply houses carry it - I got
    mine in Lowell, MA.  I figure that if you can afford a generator,
    you can afford to do things the safe way and install (or have
    installed) a transfer switch.  Incidently, this switch has its own 
    circuit breakers, but they are NOT GFI's.  If you want GFI protection
    when running under back-up power you will have to add it in another
    box or install outlets with built in GFI's.  
    
    I use a relatively inexpensive and bare-bones Agtronic (now Coleman)
    4000w recoil start generator.  It's good enough for my use.
    This basic unit comes with several different engines.  I'd suggest
    getting one with a cast iron sleeve for longevity.  It does not
    have low oil shutdown or a control panel, and it can not be called
    quiet - I may decide to install an oversized muffler.  It does,
    however, seem to be worth the money, since I can replace it and
    not spend more in total than some other units sell for.  One more
    negative though, the gas tank is only 1 1/2 gallons, so under full
    load it will probably not last more than 2 hours before requiring
    a refill.  You could add a larger tank (I would definitely go with
    the cast iron sleeve for extended operation), but you would have
    to decide if the work is worth it.  AND DON'T FORGET TO INSTALL A
    GROUND FOR THE GENERATOR.

    
                                

re: .34
>>>	the gas tank is only 1 1/2 gallons, not last more than 2 hours before 
	requiring not last more than 2 hours before requiring a refill.  

	You may want to consider buying or making your own auxillary
	gas tank/can for longer operating.

	What did you use for a line cord from your generator to the
	Gentran?  Is it something you made/fab. yourself?
	Wire Size/type?  Connectors and source?
	I agree that there should be a ground for the generator.....
	Did you use the standard grounding rod driven into the ground?

	Naturally, your operating the generator outdoors.  Did you find
	a clean method, (thru a wall) of running your aux. line cord or
	are you using the easy, thru an open window system since it's a
	"hope, I never need it" operation?  

thanks Frank

    I think Gentran makes a remote plug housing that you can put on
    the outside of the house and hardwire to the transfer switch inside.
    
    Also, the twist-lock plugs are generally available at marine supply
    places. I picked up some 30A parts for my generator hookup at Boat/US,
    prices were better than at maynard electric..
    
    ...tom

         This is to answer the questions and add some more details
         concerning my transfer switch and generator experience in
         -.34. 

         The Gentran switch mounts right next to the service entrance
         and connects via a spare knockout on the main breaker box
         through 18 inches of armored cable that is supplied already
         connected to the Gentran.  The connector into the Gentran
         from the generator is a four lug twist-lock rated at 20 amps.
         Mine is made by Arrow-Hart, and I like its construction and
         strain relief.  It is not supplied with the Gentran and costs
         (if I remember correctly) about $15.00 at most any electrical
         supply house.  It does seem overpriced, but I guess it's
         considered an industrial item.  From this connector I used
         10/3 w/ground, NM-B plastic cable.  You can use 12 guage for
         20 amp service, but my run to the permanent (future) location
         of the generator is going to be about 140 feet.  I started
         stapling the cable about 18 inches from the connector --
         leaving that much for a loop to the Gentran which allows me
         to dress the cable from a direction that does not try to
         untwist the connector.  This cable is fairly stiff.  You can
         get this size cable with stranded conductors for flexibility,
         but it's alot more expensive and not readily available.  I
         get all of my wire and cable from Spag's in Shrewsbury, Mass.
         The four lugs are for the two phases of the 240v, the neutral
         and the ground, all from the generator. 

         Before going further a few words are in order about the
         Gentran.  It comes in two flavors:  The model 15114 rated at
         1875 watts, with four 120v circuits and with a simpler, three
         conductor generator connnector; the model 20216 rated at 5000
         watts, with six 120v circuits, two of which can be ganged
         together with a metal bar (supplied) to form a 240v circuit
         for a well pump, etc. The latter model (which I installed)
         has two watt meters to aid in load balancing.  Both models
         have an accessory 120v socket on them permanently wired to
         the generator connection.  I have a small light plugged in
         here (mounted upside down to clear the toggle switches) so
         that when I start the generator, I have some light to see
         what I'm switching.  Of course, with the latter model you can
         only get 240v service if your generator has this output
         available. 
         
         The 240v line from the generator is split in the larger
         Gentran into two 120v legs powering half the switches each.
         Each switch (down for line, middle off, up for generator) has
         an associated circuit breaker (15 amp) of the button pop-out
         kind.  These breakers are only in the circuit when the
         associated switch is in the generator position.  In the line
         position the breakers in the main box operate normally.  I
         used the 240v circuit for my well pump, which left four 120v
         circuits (two on each phase) for other loads.  One of these
         goes to the refrigerator line and the others are used mostly
         for lighting.  I avoid using the microwave at the same time
         as the frige.  The starting surge to the frige is over 2500
         watts and lasts for 2 to 3 seconds, although its running
         power is only a few hundred watts.  The well pump (1/2 hp)
         needs about 1000 watts (500 per phase) running, but its
         starting surge is short enough to be undetectable on the watt
         meters.  I wired an outdoor spotlight with switch into a room
         lighting circuit that runs through the Gentran.  This helps a
         lot at night.  Since I have electric heat, I count on a large
         wood stove for heating during an outage.
          
         Going back to the generator wiring, the 10/3 NM-B from the
         Gentran connector goes to a box where it is spliced with wire
         nuts to a 10/3 w/ground type UF cable for outdoors. This
         leaves the box, goes through the wall via a PVC type LB
         connector, and then into buried PVC conduit.  With the
         conduit you don't really need type UF cable, but I like to be
         safe.  Eventually, this will go to a utility shed with the
         generator mounted outside but protected. For now I have the
         generator on a heavy pallet next to the house with some
         covering for the weather.  Also temporarily, the 10/3 cable
         is spliced to 12/3 to fit a regular 240v plug for connection
         to the generator. I intend to find a way to eliminate the
         12/3 cable.                                  
         
         The generator ground lug goes to an 8 foot U/L approved
         ground rod (about $10.00 at Spags).  The small ground rods
         from Radio Shack will not do.  They also rot away in a few
         years.  I intend to connect this ground to the service
         entrance ground with #6 copper.
         
         I leave the light switch on in a room without back up power
         to let me know when normal power is restored. 
         
         That's most of the story.  You are invited to shoot holes
         in anything you disagree with.
               
         
         

    I want to install a 5 KW generator. I need the flexibility to power any
    circuit in the house (read: total electric house with multi-day
    outages). My electrician said that a 200 amp transfer switch would
    cost $500 (GAG). Gentran doesn't give me the flexibility I want.
    I have heard that there is a two box-1 key setup that offers the
    same functionality as a transfer switch but at less cost. It may
    be called something like "Kirt-Key System". Has anybody heard of
    this and can you forward a pointer to specs/cost?
     
    thanks
    Bob G.
    

    As I recall, my motorhome had a rather nifty setup using standard
    breakers, except there was a metal linkage/bracket widget that blocked
    the handles on the breakers.  You had to shut one breaker off before
    the bracket thing would allow the other to be turned on.  U-Haul, which
    does a lot of RV stuff, may have these listed in their catalog.  There
    are other RV catalog sources that may have these.  
    
    Carl

	I'm intrigued by the notion of hooking a backup generator to the 
breaker box by cutting off the main breaker and just plugging in the generator.
(With all the multitudes of caveats expressed previously in these replies and
the notion that this is temporary until a transfer switch gets installed...)
I understand that only the side of the breaker box plugged into will be powered.
What if the generator has two 110v outlets?  Is it possible (safe?) to plug
each of these into outlets that are on separate sides of the box to power the
whole thing?

	I suspect the answer is "sorry, this is taking an already unsafe
situation and making it worse", but if not, it would be nice.  Thanks!

								-craig

re: -1
>
>	I suspect the answer is "sorry, this is taking an already unsafe
>situation and making it worse", but if not, it would be nice.  Thanks!
>

	I think you might be asking for trouble, unless you have a HUGE
    generator capable of delivering 220v/30+Amps.

        I was thinking of a similar thing, only with a small generator.
    Hooking in to the mains, with the breaker off, and only powering the
    absolutly needed things like the fridge, and boiler...How bad do you
    need a TV in a power outage, use a portable radio. HOw bad do you need
    all lights in the house...use candles and flashlights.. How bad do you
    need to run your range?...cook on the grill!

        My purpose of having the generator would be not to maintain my
    CURRENT standard of living, but rather keep my family from beeing froze
    out and making sure they had food to eat.

        IMHO, I think a smaller generator with limited capability would
    teach a few of us about the value of electricity and maybe teach us
    that we dont have to waste it, we can all get by on a little less. I'm
    always chasing my daughters around turning the lights off after them. I
    wonder if they'd be a little more concious of the lights if they had to
    do without them for a while, like during a blizzard   :-)....

	Now......what breaker was that for the second floor lights? :-)	

     Steve
    	

	Re: .41

	Thank you for the morals lesson.  You read entirely too much into my
question and made too many assumptions on what I'm trying to do.  No, I am not
trying to maintain a "life as normal" situation, but rather I'm trying to avoid
rearraigning my breaker box so that all the key items (furnance fan,
refrigerator and a few lights) are on the only "emergency powered" side before
getting the transfer switch put in.

	Now, back to the question...

								-craig

If you have a generator with a 220V output, you can just plug that into a 220V
outlet, and both sides of your circuit box are powered.

Plugging into a 110V circuit, even only on one side, is much more dangerous.
In a 220V circuit, both leads are charged relative to ground.  In a 110V 
circuit, one of the leads IS ground.  If you plug the generator into the house
wiring backwards, you'll be charging the chassis of every item plugged into 
that side of the circuit box. Sounds like a prime way to electrocute people 
all throughout the house simultaneously.

Assuming you survive...

I suppose you could plug into both sides.  If there is only one AC wave from
the generator, then the 220V circuits would not be charged - both leads would
be connected to alternating waves that moved in unison, with a constant
differential of 0V.

Paul

The "side" that you speak of, do you mean "the right side vs the left
side" of the panel.  Every panel that I have seen destribute the power
from one leg of the 220V feed at every-other breaker on a side.  Why? 
So that 220V breakers can work!  You may not have to do too much
re-arranging to get the important breakers on one feed.

Brian

	Re: .44

	Thanks for pointing that out.  I did use "side" in the meaning of
"which side of the split 220", not "right" vrs "left" when physically looking
at the box.

	Re: .43

	Good idea about the 220.  Sad to say, my only 220 breaker was removed
to make room for the track light breaker.  (The 220 breaker fed the line for
the electric dryer -- and ours is gas...)  Perhaps I'll put it back in.  (Hmmm,
now which breaker do I add the track lights to?  Maybe I'll have the electrician
put in a bigger box while he's at it.  Might as well upgrade to 200A at the
same time.  Oh, I can see a big electrician bill coming up...)


	Thanks for all the comments!

								-craig

RE:.43
>...  If you plug the generator into the house
>wiring backwards, you'll be charging the chassis of every item plugged into 
>that side of the circuit box. ...

Not true.  The generator itself does not have a "ground" side - it just has two
leads, with voltage between them.  "Ground" is determined in the panel, by the
connection to a copper rod driven into the ground.  The chasses (sp?) are
connected to this ground by the house wiring and the generator hookup will not
change that.

If the generator did have it's own (copper-rod) ground, connecting it backwards
would cause a direct short, with generator fuses being blown, or melt-down
occurring:

        ___________                 ___________
        |         |                 | PANEL   |
        | GEN     |       __________|___o_____|______ "hot"
        |   ______|____  /          |         |
        | 110v    |    \/           |      ___|_______ "neutral"
        |   --+---|----/\           |     /   |
        |_____|___|      \__________|___o/----|------ chassis "ground"
              |                     |___|_____|
             GND                        |   
                                       GND

     I've driven my house from my 110V 2200W single phase generator 
without any problem.  You just need to make a 20A male-to-male adapter to
connect the extension cord between the outlet and the generator.  I'm sure 
some people will be appalled by this, but as long as you use a little 
intelligence and care, you can do things like this without killing anybody 
or burning anything down.

     I happen to have two 20A outlets next to each other in the basement
and they are on opposite sides/legs of the 220 coming from the street.  A 
second 20A male to male adapter jumpers the two outlets together so both 
sides/legs in the house are energized.  Its true that the dryer doesn't 
work, but when I'm forced to use the generator, I don't care.  When 
reasonable care is exercised, its possible to hook everything up without 
ever having an energized plug exposed.

     I considered and rejected a transfer switch, not because I was 
unwilling to spend the money, but because it would only allow six circuits 
to be run from the generator.  By energizing the entire house, I can run
whatever lights, etc. are necessary without having to rearrange the breaker
box.  

  I've hunted around and haven't found exactly the right topic, but this
  one looks like it might fit. My question is:

  Does anyone have information or experience with selling electricity
  back to the power company? I know that they must now buy electricity
  from you (at some sort of modest rate) if you produce it correctly. My
  sister-in-law lives on a windy bluff on the R.I. coast, and is
  considering installing a wind generator. She's been looking around,
  though, and can't find any suppliers or anyone knowledgeable in her
  area. Any good sources of info or experience on this? What's involved?
  What's it cost? Who supplies or installs?

  Thanks in advance.

    Can't help you on wind power, but William K. Fay (508) 869-2118
    can tell you about selling electricity to the power company.
    His expertise is small-scale hydro; that's his business.  I
    don't know if he can help with the wind power or not; he might
    be able to, at least with the beraucracy and parework involved.  
    (It *is* his business though, so I assume he'd charge for his services.)
    
    A very friendly guy.

I thought I heard (or read) that the (newer) electric meters just run backwards.
So if you set up your circuitry right, it is automatic.  In that case you would 
just need an electrician who knew his stuff (and the correct meter).  Anyone 
care to confirm or deny?

Stan

    re: .50
    
    If you are officially (legally) selling power back to the power
    company, you must put two meters in with rachets and sell power back to
    them at a lower rate than you buy it from them at (the wholesale rate). 
    If you dump power in without an agreement, most meters will run
    backwards, and they will be buying power back at the 'retail' rate. 
    However, someday they will figure it out (maybe the month your meter
    reads less than the month before) and you will be in big trouble, and
    have to pay them the difference....
    
    Willie

  Actually, I had heard both, but believe that the dual-meter
  arrangement is what's required in MA, for the reason given.

  "Hooking it up right" is obviously not a trivial affair, as your
  generator has to match the phase of the utility's current precisely if
  you want to sell energy rather than purchase a large amount for the
  purpose of turning the local wiring into a big fuse.

  Thanks for the recommendation. That's helpful info. I'll pass it
  along.

	I've looked into the notion of selling excess power back (no, it has
nothing to do with my backup generator question a few replies back!) and while
I forget the numbers, you have to be able to sell a pretty good amount of
electricity back or it really isn't worth it.  The second meter is a very small
portion of the expense -- the worst cost is involved in the whizmo that
synchronizes your output's phase with that of the grid.  It isn't cheap and
can really throw off the ROI numbers.

								-craig

re .53:

>                          the worst cost is involved in the whizmo that
>synchronizes your output's phase with that of the grid.

Wouldn't you need it anyway if you were using the grid to backup your
windmill?

  There are a couple of different ways you can set it up. One thing you
  can do is set up an energy storage facility (usually based on
  something like a large number of lead-acid batteries). The AC output
  produced by it is easily and cheaply sync'ed to the grid's phase, and
  you don't need to match the phase of your generator to the grid,
  because there's no direct AC connection between them. But you also
  can't sell energy back, and you need a large, well-maintained and
  well-ventilated storage facility. It's also not as efficient because
  of all the AC/DC conversions.

  It's my understanding that this has a longer payback period than the
  sellback approach, and, in some installations, may never pay back. The
  sellback approach will almost always pay back over a long enough
  period, mainly because of higher efficiency and lower maintenance
  costs. It's also potentially dangerous (accumulation of hydrogen gas).

  I'll be checking on the cost of the equipment which handles the phase
  matching. I was under the impression it could be bought as a part of
  the generator, but don't know.

	Re: .54

>Wouldn't you need it anyway if you were using the grid to backup your
>windmill?

	Not really if you use the battery concept mentioned in .55, but for a
different goal.  Imagine the following:


               Windmill                 Grid
                   |  AC out              |  AC
                   V                      V
                AC to DC               AC to DC
                converter              converter
                     \                   /
                      \                 /
                       \           "smart box"
                        \             /
                           batteries
                               |
                               V
                           DC to AC
                           converter
                               |
                               V
                           breaker box

In this layout, energy from the two separate sources never meet as AC, so no
synchronizer is needed.  (The "smart box" is used to only charge the batteries
from the grid when the batteries power levels fall to critical levels.)  This
does have all the AC->DC->AC conversion efficiency losses, so it presumes that
you have enough excess production capacity to not really care about the amount
that is lost.

	This is still a pain, however, due to the headaches of the batteries.
If I was getting into this ("when", hopefully :-), I'd probably just get the
synchronizer and sell the power back to the grid.  In effect, I'd be paying
the $.0X per kwh (the differential between the retail and wholesale prices) as
the cost for the grid to act as my battery, but I'd also not be placing an
artificial limit on the amount of production capacity that is useful to me.
(ie. In the diagram above, any excess production capacity is wasted.)

								-craig

<<< Note 452.47 by TALLIS::KOCH "DTN226-6274 ... If you don't look good, DEC doesn't look good." >>>

>>>>....as long as you use a little 
intelligence and care, you can do things like this without killing anybody 
or burning anything down.

That's exactly the problem. Not all folks think to turn off the
main breaker before attaching a backup generator. If the power
company is working on the lines; there is a potential of making
crispy critters of the line men. Most utility companies are
extremely safety conscious and grounds all lines that they are
working on. However, on some ocassions, subcontractors or rural
electric areas are contracted to less experienced contractors.

>>>...a transfer switch, not because I was 
unwilling to spend the money, but because it would only allow six circuits 
to be run from the generator.

Circuits that are critical to emergency power should be on
separate circuits for two reasons. The critical power would
automatically switch to the generator without your intervention
and switch back to your mains when power is restored.

If you contact your power company, they will tell you that
without the approved switching mechanism to connect in the
emergency power, they do have the right to REFUSE you service and
disconnect you from their line service.

calvin

    .47: ... The critical power would
automatically switch to the generator without your intervention
and switch back to your mains when power is restored.
    
    That's if you are using an automatic transfer switch (serious bucks).
    Most of us I think would use a manual switch.
    
    Rich
    

I've got a 5KW Generac generator with a Briggs & Stratton engine.  It's got
an 8 hour tank on it, that shelters the engine and generator.  The overall 
shape is a box.  What I'm interested in finding out is if there is a noise 
reducing muffler that can be attached to the engine in place of the existing
muffler.  I'm not too worried about bulk, as long as I can still roll the unit
out the basement door.

It was nice, the last hot and humid night when power went out.  I was able to
shower and run our bedroom AC.  But with our windows closed, it was still loud,
and all I could think about was our neighbors who had just come home from a 
bicycle trip to no water, not even a fan, and a bedroom window pointing towards
our generator!

						-JP

    Most of those generators have a "cheapo" muffler. You can remove the 
    standard muffler and attach threaded steel pipe. From the pipe,you can
    attach many different shapes/sizes of mufflers....however...if you
    want a portable setup,I would leave the existing muffler on .
    
    Marc H.

The unit is about 2.5' wide x 3' high x 4' long approximately.  It sits on a
dolly in the basement, and rolls out the walkout door.  So, for portability, all
I would want is to be able to fit the muffled unit out the door.  I might even
be able to live with attaching the muffler once it's through the door.

Questions:  I assume the existing muffler is not threaded?  How are they usually 
attached?  (Looks like a standard lawn mower muffler, but I never looked at the
attachment method.)  Does it sound reasnable that I could fit the existing 
muffler onto threads so it could be attached in place of the noise reduction one
if need be?

I guess what I'd be looking for is the most noise reduction I could get with 
the smallest size.  Where would I look for that kind of muffler?  I assume not
a Midas shop.  Would a motorcycle place do?  Or is this something that would be
available at a hardware store or lawnmower/tractor distributor?

Thanks
		-JP

    Every muffler that I have seen,is threaded into the head. I think that
    its 1 inch pipe thread. Could be 3/4 inch.
    
    I would first look for mufflers at a engine parts store....like a 
    Briggs & Stratton type small engine store. Next,I would try a 
    store that sells gas engine generators and see if a muffler for
    a large unit....say a 8 or 10 KW model would fit. That should
    help. You should be able to use standard pipe fittings to hook the 
    whole thing up.
    
    Marc H.

    Does anybody have any experience or comments on 4-5 KW generators by:
    
    Chicago Electric (Harbor Freight Salvage w/ 8 hp B&S eng)
    Coleman (Tecumseh 8 hp eng)
    Homelite (B&S 8 hp eng)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jonathan
    
    

    I had a 8 Hp Tecumseh generator......worked O.K. Started most times
    on the first pull.  Machine ran at 3600 RPM....very noisly. Also,
    ran hot,but,I suspect that most in that style would be the same.
    
    Marc H.

I have 4 KW Windco generator and a 900 W Generac generator. The 
Windco was bought for use at home in case of power failures and 
the Generac to recharge batteries on my boat. 

The Windco has a 16 HP Briggs-Straton engine and operates at 1800 
RPM rather than 3600 RPM as most inexpensive generators do. I 
paid extra for this feature specifically for sound control. In 
fact, I even purchased what was supposed to be a "quite" muffler 
for an additional $75. The so called "quite" muffler was noisier 
than the standard that came with the engine.

I ran the generator for about 5-6 hours after Bob along with half 
of the neighborhood running theirs. I found that about 200 feet 
away from my generator, the operating noise was masked by my 
neighbor's unit that was over 500 feet away. After the first hour 
of operation, I put up several sheets of plywood around the unit 
to try to further contain the sound. The inexpensive sound barrier 
did improve the situation. 

The message is, you get what you pay for.
I wouldn't want to run my unit through the night during the 
summer but I would run it during the winter when people don't 
have their windows open. As to the Generac, I wouldn't run it at 
night, on the boat or at home.

    I am looking for a generator in the 4kw range, to back up a sump pump 
    The sump requires 2.4kw (so sayz the book), and a bit of spare wattage
    for lights etc.....I am looking for gas powered, and portable. I would
    have to carry it out of ther cellar to use it. Any recomendations for
    manufacturers or types ?
    
    Thanx/-bd-

I just bought a Honda 5000 Watt unit with electric start and 220V/110V/12V 
outputs for $1800.

Cost per Watt was the major selling point, but the fact that it was recommended
for reliability and that 20 different dealers and hardware stores in town 
regularly stock parts was a plus.

My unit has four wheels, but it appears to be available in a "wheel barrow"
arrancgement (which I *wish* I had gotten instead of the 4 wheels, because it's
only 2� feet tall, so pushing it around means either shoving it with your foot,
or bending over and pushing).  Fortunately, I won't be bringing it up/down any 
stairs!

Look for the reason I bought it in note 4600.

Mage

    	In a previous note, someone had mentioned a small Honda generator
    that could produce 2KW continuous and run for approx. 9 hrs. on 3 gal.
    of gas. This comes out to 3 hrs. of operation per gallon of gas. For
    3 hrs. at 2KW, this is 6KW hrs. If you take 6KWH x $.13/KWH, it comes
    out to $.98. This also happens to be the exact price of regular
    unleaded per gallon at a station near me.
    
    	This of course is not taking into account purchase and maintanence 
    of the generating equipment. I have heard that large diesel generators are
    much more efficient than the smaller home models regarding cost per
    KWH.
    
    	This, to me, was very surprising. Assuming the above calculations
    are correct, you can generate electricity for approximately the same
    price as what PSNH sells it for (after the first 250KWHs). I've always
    been told that you can't compete in this area because it's economy of
    scale that wins out, but if PSNH (and others) continue to raise their
    prices to pay for Seabrook, they are now approaching the break even
    point.
    
    	Also, along the lines of some of the discussion in earlier notes, I
    heard that the electric company was obligated to pay you for excess 
    electricity you generate "at the same rate they charge you", not the rate 
    that they purchase it it. Not sure if this is true or not, but if it
    is, it makes this even more feasible. 
    	
    	Ray

    RE: .68
    
    In Massachusetts, the utility buys the electricity from you at the
    wholesale price.
    
    When I have run my WW2 Generator, the price per Kilowatt is around 13
    cents.
    
    Marc H.

    The previous note refered to WW2 a generator. Military surplus seemed
    like a good idea to me. Is there a source in southern NH?
    
    Peter Duke
    
    

    	After thinking about my previous note, I realized there was a flaw
    in my calculations. I based it on 6KWH / gal. of gas, but it takes 3
    gal. to generate 6KWH with this generator. This means you have to
    multiply the figure I came up with by 3, so it's really ~$.50 per KWH,
    assuming you can get gas for $1/gal. There was also a much easier way
    the calculate this, i.e. $1/gal. for 2KWH = $.50 /KWH.
    
    	That sounds a little closer to reality. As a previous noter
    mentioned though, they have a WW2 generator that works out to about
    $.13 /KWH. Not quite cheaper than PSNH, but if they keep raising the
    price of electricity, it soon may be.
    
    	Ray

    
    isn't gasoline consumed for non-vehicle use exempt from road tax?
    You have to keep the records for the IRS.

    If you really want to make your own power.....diesel is the only way.
    Get a 10KW or larger used machine from "COMB" or "Northern Hydraulics".
    
    If you can use the waste heat for hot water/heating...i.e. cogeneration
    then you will save money.
    
    Marc H.

    
    I want to be able to have a generator that will turn on when power
    is lost without manual intervention.  What will that take?
    
    Does the electric start feature provide for this capability?
    
    I would suppose it would also take some special wiring.  Will any
    commercial generator with idle control and electric start work for
    this purpose?  I'm looking at Coleman Vantage 7000s.

>>    I would suppose it would also take some special wiring.  Will any
>>    commercial generator with idle control and electric start work for
>>    this purpose?  I'm looking at Coleman Vantage 7000s.

Yes.  Special wiring in of a cut-over device at least.  I would think that the 
generator would have to have the ability to start itself (ie battery to kick it
over).

Last I recall one of these cut over devices could be had for about 300.00 or so
(a small version!).  I think I saw it in a Northern Hydrolics" catalog.

I have never installed one of these so I don't know how compilicated it can
get...

bjm

    
    How do you get a hold of COMB or Northern Hydraulics?
    
    I need to look into generator expenses...I'm currently looking at a 
    place that uses generator power completely...It's too far off the 
    grid to be hooked up without a 18k dollar charge....
    
    I was wondering if it was possible to design a system that was 
    decent, durable, and cost effective (for generated power anyway)...
    
    Right now the house has a 7K primary and 5K backup, and doesn't store
    power at all...
    
    I've also heard that it's probably a good idea to look into 'gas' 
    powered appliances like a gas fridge, and gas dryer (minimal electric).
    
    How would anyone else go about determaining the costs of running it 
    now, and improving it ???  Wind power ???   Should I hook up a bike 
    to a power generator, and get in shape at the same time ??? :-).
    
    Thanks ! !! !
    
    Ron.

    	Sounds like you are on the right track with trying to minimize the
    amount of appliances using electricity by going with gas. You may also
    want to consider some storage via battery for DC powered lights, TV,
    radio, etc..
    
    	If you were going to use this generator long term, I'd probably
    look into an army surplus diesal unit. I used to have a source but
    don't think I have it any more. Supposedly, diesal engines will run on
    #2 fuel oil. If this were the case, you could probably pick up a 275
    gal. oil tank and use it for the generator.
    
    	There's also a furnace that will burn either wood or oil. If you
    already have the oil, it may make sense to go this route.
    
    	One of the things I've read that makes the generator efficiency go
    up substantially is if you go with a water cooled engine, using the
    coolant systems excess heat to heat your house. That way you're getting
    both heat and electricty from the same source at little to no extra
    cost over just producing/using the electricity alone.
    
    	Sounds like a neat project. Good luck and I hope this helps.
    
    	Ray

There are about 10 sitting out by the cash registers. One had a somewhat rusty
muffler. Maybe they rented some of them out during the power outage? Anyway,
they're regularly $698 and are being sold at $593.

						Trace

Those 10 are most likly returns from people who said "it didn't work" after
getting their power back.

bjm

    After considerable looking around I finally got a Homelite
    LRIE5500 generator at Logan Equipment in Shrewsbury, MA.
    The Homelite seemed to offer the best price/performance
    of anything I could find.  For under $1200 I got 5,000
    watts, electric start, four GFI-protected 120V outlets
    (two dual sockets, one pair 15A, one pair 20A), a twist-lock
    120V 30A outlet, and a twist-lock 120/240 40A/20A outlet,
    5 gallon gas tank, and what seems to be a pretty good engine
    (an 11hp Briggs & Stratton "Industrial Plus") with low oil
    shutdown and automatic idle.
    Homelite also has a recoil-start-only LRI5500 model available 
    as well as less fancy, lower wattage models and a couple 
    of heavy-duty contractor/industrial models.
    
    Your mileage may vary, of course, but if you're looking for a
    generator I think the Homelite line is worth consideration.
    I was also very impressed by Logan Equipment as a dealer. Nice
    people.

    re:-1
    
    	With an 11 hp motor, is this 5000 "continuous" watts with a surge
    rating of 6250 watts ? Just curious as most of the 11 hp units I've
    seen are rated that way.
    
    	It's too bad they didn't have an automatic choke option. They sell
    transfer switches that will automatically fire up an electric start 
    generator in the event of a power outage. It doesn't do you much good 
    though if you physically have to be there to work the choke.
    
    	Congrats on your purchase. You do know that now that you've bought
    one it will be at least 2 years till you need it ;-)
    
    	Ray

    Yes, it's 5000 watts continuous.  
    
    After all the tree damage we had in December and again a couple
    of weeks ago, I don't expect to lose power again for the next 
    10 years!