Conference 7.286::home_work

    Are you referring to an electric/gas range or a wood stove? If it's
    a reqular cooking range, you can get both exhausts fans and range
    hoods that vent directly through the exterior walls, at most any
    homecenter/lumberyard. If it's a wood stove, I can't recommend any
    sources, but I would be concerned about the fire hazard of the cabinets
    located over the stove.
    

    Actually it wasn't as easy to find one as I thought. It is for an
    electric stove, but most places only sell the ductless kind.If you
    find a place that carries the other, you have to order it. I finally
    odered one at the best price I could find. Unfortunately that was
    SEARS. Yuck. What an ordeal to order it. But that's for the consumer
    file. 
    
    Gary  who_now_hates_even_going_into_SEARS

    I vent my Jenn-Air stove through a 5" Jenn-Air plastic cap (plus
    some 5" duct, of course).  They can be ordered through Lechmere (about
    $10); I've also seen them in Mass Hardware in Acton.
    
    I have this feeling, though, that this is not what you are talking
    about.
    
    __Rich

                              

    Close Rich. But it usually is 3 1/4 inch going from rectangle to
    round. I found it at sears where I finally bought the vent. It was
    only $5.00 It vents the range hood  straight out the back so as to
    avoid having to cut through the cabinet. Of course I had to order
    both through the catalog. The duct came in today. I'll probably
    see the vent in six mos.
    
    Gary

    	I just acquired a antique enameled,woodburning cook stove.
    I am planing on restoring it and using it in my house. The stove
    is in pretty good shape but I want to have all the chrome pieces
    re chromed and I want to touch up all the rust spots on the enamel
    finish. How do I go about touching up the spots on the stove? How
    do I remove the rusted spots without damaging the surounding enamel?
    Where can I get the enamel paint used on stoves? Can this paint
    be tinted to match the existing color? Is the outside of the stove
    glazed and if so can I also do the glazing just on the spots and
    areas that I redo. Can I expect decent results from redoing parts
    of the enamel finish without it looking like a poor attemp at
    restoration? Finally where can I get pieces rechromed around the
    Hopkinton Ma. area?
    	The stove is an Atlantic queen w/cream and green enameled
    finish. If any one is familiar with these stoves or has had 
    experience with this type of project your help will be apreciated.
    
    						Mike
    

    If you live or work anywhere near Littleton, Ma there is a person
    who restores old stoves. He may beable to help you.
    His place is the old Littleton train depot on Taylor street. 

                
    Hope this will help
    
    dave

    	I think the place in Littleton is called the Littleton Stove
    Shop and is by the Very Fine Juice proccessing plant and was a 
    train station at one point. Definately some of the best work done
    on older cook stoves I've ever seen!!!!
    
    
    						Good Luck
    
    							Rick
    

    If anyone's interested, I have a similar antique Glenwood enameled
    kitchen range, combination 4-burner gas + woodstove with water heating
    pipes in the firebox that I would like to sell.  Send me MAIL if
    you are looking for same, it's located in Acton, Mass.
    
    

    How much ?

Here 'tis - no reasonable offer refused.    
    
    
                <<< KRYSTL::DQA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]STOVES.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< woodstoves >-
================================================================================
Note 55.0              Glenwood gas/wood range FOR SALE                  1 reply
SWSNOD::RPGDOC "Have pen, will travel"               14 lines  11-AUG-1986 13:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Antique Glenwood gas/wood combination kitchen range.
    
    Four gas burner top plus two woodstove lids
    
    gas/wood oven
    
    Cream colored enamel on four legs with warming shelf in back.
    
    Firebox has built-in brass water pipes for connecting to adapted
    hot water heater.
    
    not hooked up  -  ready to move  -  in Acton, Mass.
    
    Price - $425.00		Call 617-263-4778  evenings

    
    There's a place in Maine that sells parts for old stoves:
    
    			Washington Stove Parts
    			Box 206
    			Washington, Maine  04574
    
    says they've been in business for twenty years and stock stuff from
    most of the antique stoves that had been manufactured in New England
    and can also make things up to order.
    
    

    I have a cast iron kettle which sits atop my wood stove in my family
    room.  We keep it full of water to humidify the air.  The problem
    is that there is now a great deal of rust inside the kettle.  Anyone
    know how to lessen the rust, or does it come with the territory?
                      
    Thanks in advance.

    Here's something to try (total WAG): squeeze a lemon into the kettle.
    The citric acid might keep it from rusting.
    

    Note 107 in the STOVES notesfile pretty well discusses this question.
    That notesfile can be found on KRYSTL::STOVES.  Press SELECT or
    KP7 to add that entry to your notebook.

    Thanks for the information regarding the Stoves note file.  I was
    not aware of it's existence.  Note 107 is exactly what I was searching
    for.
    
    Tom
    

    
    
    
    I'm in need of a particular type of kitchen range hood.
    I have an island type of counter and where the range is 
    located I have no wall cabnets above and it would prove 
    difficult, although not impossible, to suspend some 
    cabnets in that area. What I would like is a system that 
    either suspends from the ceiling or is self supporting
    
    Would anyone know where I could find either kind? 
    
    Thanks,
    Wayne 
    
    
    

I'm beginning to think about installing a vented range hood on an interior
wall and have a problem.  As I understand it, the way most hoods are vented is
over the tops of your cabinets which is then covered with some kind of facing
such as sheet rock.  In my case, there's a steel beam blocking the location I
want the vent to exit at.

SO...  I was wondering if I could go DOWN into the basement and then over and
out the wall something like a dryer vent.  It sounds reasonable to me but then
again, there could be a real basic reason why this would be a no-no.

comments?

-mark

    	I ran into the same problem and ended up getting a self (non)
    venting range hood.  You have to use metal ductwork because of the
    hot grease.  Every bend in the ductwork is a place where grease
    will accumulate.  Make sure that you have access to all bends because
    the vent should be cleaned periodically.
    	
    					=Ralph=

    i beleive that is posible. There are new stove tops like JENN AIR
    that are down drafted and then out to the side of the house, so
    I see no reason why you can do what you want
    
    

    Ref the Jenn-Aire example, their is a limit to the number of
    recommended bends in the metal vent line and the size ref to the
    run length (I don't have the figures handy). When I put in a Jenn-Aire,
    I only had 1 90 degree elbow, but if you have an over the stove
    vent, you probably need at least three:
    
    
                          outside   |      XXXXXXXX
                              wall..|      X      X
                                    |      X
                                    |      X    STOVE
                                    |      X
                                    |------X---------------------FLOOR
                                    |      X
                                  XX|XXXXXXX
                                    |
    
 That may create a problem, but more research is in order. Good luck.
    
Eric
    

    
    	I believe what you are looking for is called a "Chuck Wagon"
    hood. There are residential as well as commercial styles available.
    most electrical supply houses carry them, as well as kitchen centers.
    If your in N.H., Ralph Pill Electrical supply has several types.
    I purchased one there, but mine mounts to the wall, however several
    variations exist.
    
     ;-)Dick
    

    Is I am planning the final touches of a kitchen in a new house,
    I plan to install a Jenn-Aire grill in the island. My previous house
    had an electric unit which was used extensively. In this house,
    I have the choice of putting either an electric or gas unit in (the
    gas pipe below the kitchen has a capped T fitting just below where
    the Jenn-Aire will go. Does anyone out there in DIY land have an
    opinion either way-gas or electric? Thanks for the input.
    
    Eric (new house = all those things you always wanted = DEBT!!!!!)

    We had gas at our old house and it was great during hurricanes and
    blizzards because we could always cook.  Gas is also more controllable.
    When something starts to boil over you can remove the source of
    heat without having to lift the pot.
    
    I also find that the electric burners that I have now get tempermental
    if they are not seated properly.  I am tolerating electric until
    I'm forced to get a new stove....then gas definitely!
    
    Alice

Unless you have allergies*, I would recommend gas burners.  They are 
easier to control and are quick response.  The Jenn-air looks very 
good.  The solid burner electrics are, however, less of a fire hazard, 
since they never get red hot.  

I recommend that your oven be electric.  If you can afford it, get a 
Jenn-air combination convection and regular built in oven.  Electric 
ovens are easier to control, are easily found in self-clean versions, 
and have no real disadvantages (unless you are worried about 
hurricanes!).  

Alex

*Studies have shown that the combustion products of gas stoves can be
harmful to some people with allergies.  My wife has found the electric
stove to be much better for her. 

    
    This is interesteing because I am currently outfitting a new house
    myself. I have an uncle who is the head honcho distributors rep
    for many major brands throughout most of New England. He has been
    my sole source of info (and will be my source of supply) as far
    as major appliances go. [His company supplies retail stores as
    well as builders]. His recommendations for stoves were as follows:
    
    	                                             
    1. Don't buy Jenn-Air, they are overpriced when compared with
       with their competition (quality AND options).
    
    2. Don't buy Magic Chef, they have terrific looking appliances
       with wonderful new technology... but they have the worst
       failure/return/replacement record in the business.
    
    3. When deciding between gas and electric keep the following
       in mind: Gas stoves are better to cook on (if you are really
       into cooking) but they tend to require more service/care 
       than electric. 
    
    4. If you decide on a gas stove,  get pilot-less ignition and
       don't go cheap on the range hood: good fans and venting to
       the outside are strongly recommended.
    
    5. If you decide on electric there are MORE decisions to make,
       such as cooking surfaces, here are some pros and cons:
    
    	Standard coil burners:
    
    		Pros: basic, cheap the replace and they heat quick.
    
    		Cons: overspills run down into the stove, cleaning
    	  	      is frequently necessary.
    
    	Flat surface cooktops:
    
    		Pros: Beautiful to look at, easy to clean.
    
    		Cons: Easy to break, numeroud brands (esp. Magic Chef)
    		      have a tendency to explode if you drip cold
    		      water on the stove when in use.
    
    	European "discs": 
    
    		Pros: Easy to clean, no drip through, nice looking.
    
    		Cons: A little slower to heat up than coils. They have
    		      a tendency to transfer a lot of heat to the cooktop.
    
    		Other considerations: Most brands require service persons
    		to come to the house when a burner must be replaced.
    		This can amount to a $125+ charge PER replacement.
    
    His recommendations?
    
    	Whether Gas or electric, he recommends CALORIC. He says that
    	the top gas stoves are Caloric (or made by Caloric with someone
    	else's name on it). If your opt for a Caloric Electric stove
    	with European Burners, they're modular and owner replaceable
    	at a cost of about $25 per. If you don't like them after buying
    	them, you can easily replace them with coil burners.
    
    	Caloric can be a little harder to find, but he thinks they are
    	well worth looking for.
    
    
    							* MAC *
       
    

    I think that I may have not been clear enough originally, the Jenn-Aire is
    only going to be used an an indoor bar-b-que (bottom venting type).
    , all regular cooking will be done on a conventional stove. Many
    of the previous points were directed at a counter cooktop (conventional).
    I use the Jenn_Aire at my prev. house when I didn't feel like going
    outside to fire up my gass grill.
    
    Eric
    

    My sister just had a Jenn-Aire gas stove top in their new house.
    They had a passive hood (no exhaust) to catch the upward grease
    vapour (traps the grease versus the roof of your kitchen). She does
    a lot of stir frying so that's what the home economist suggested.
    
    /cal

Re: .3

I agree with most of what is said except the very first point:

>   1. Don't buy Jenn-Air, they are overpriced when compared with
>      with their competition (quality AND options).

I disagree because (1) there is very little competition and (2) their 
quality is excellent (at least in the newer Maytag redesigned versions).

The competition for a downdraft stove with indoor grill boils down to
Roper/Sears and one or two other brands.  The Roper is clearly not as
good quality as the Jenn-Air.  For example, the Roper is brushed chrome
or painted versus Jenn-Air's stainless steel. And the clock mechanism
looks like it will fall in if you push too hard.  Roper also does not
offer a convection oven.  Take a look at it side by side with the Jenn 
Air.  I was not impressed. 

Thermador has a stainless cooktop but its quality is now so bad we didn't 
look much further.   For example, the grill doesn't even fit together 
well. 

There's a new brand (I can't remeber the name) that I saw at Barons in
Salem N.H. that might be competition, but it was about the same price as
Jenn-Air. 

I am not aware of any options Jenn-air is lacking. 

RE: burners, you can simply unplug a Jenn-Air coil and plug in a 
new one.  No service fee, nothing.  Just pop by the store.  Or you 
could bring the cartridge in, since that is easily popped out as well. 

Regarding Caloric: my parents are now on about their third or fourth try
to get some parts for their new Caloric oven that don't come chipped or
damaged in the poorly wrapped package from the factory.  I hear that
Raytheon is trying to up the quality of Caloric, but be careful. 

Alex

    
    Does anybody have any experience with convection ovens?  We are
    looking for one, in either a range or in a wall unit.  Jenaire seems
    to have the only range that we have been able to find, although
    we were told a Sears/Roper model exists (the guy at Sears said it
    didn't).  There are several wall units available, although only
    one of them comes in a 30" model.

    Re: .7
    
    I have a Sharp combination microwave/convection oven.  I love it.
    But it's a freestanding unit - not in a range or built-in.
    The convection oven does a fabulous job on broiling and roasts,
    and using the "mix" feature (mixes convection with microwave), I
    cooked a turkey in about half the normal time, and it tasted
    great.  It's supposedly good for baking too, though I haven't
    tried that.
    
    			Steve

    I am looking into ranges for my kitchen.  I am in the process of
    designing a new look for my kitchen.  I have looked at Sears and
    Jen-Air so far.  They both have slide-in ranges with down-draft,
    which eliminates the need for the ugly range hood.  The Jen-Air
    was a convection oven.  I can't remember if the Sears was or not.
     I don't think it was.
    
    I liked the look of both, and will probably go with the Jen-Air.
     The nice thing about the Jen-Air is that by going with their oven,
    I don't have to put a separate Jen-Air unit in my counter.  One
    thing I was not going to skip was the Jen-Air grill.  This way,
    if I want to grill, I just pop in the grilling unit.  If I need
    the burners, I just pop in the burner unit.
    
    Has anyone had much experience with Jen-Air's oven?  My mother had
    a Litton range with a built-in microwave.  While it was nice not
    having a counter-top microwave, the thing never seemed to work right.
     I would definitely not want to get into that with either the Sears
    or Jen-Air.
    
    Also, is service on the Jen-Air easy to get?  I live in North
    Chelmsford.  I only saw the Jen-Air units at Cuomo's and Lechmere.
     Is service and parts availability pretty easy around here?
    
    Ed..
    

    I've had my Jenn-Air for about 10 mos.  I love it - especially the
    grille.  Mine has both a conventional and convection oven.  I also
    got the European solid disc elctric burners.  They take longer to
    heat up but that means I can shut them off and the food will continue
    to stay warm longer as they also take longer to cool down.  Around
    the burners is glass so it is VERY easy tp keep clean. A hint for
    you - empty and clean the grille more often than recommended by
    Jenn-Air.  They say to wait until the drip container is full of
    grease before cleaning.  The cleaning is messy, but a little easier
    if you do not wait too long to do it.  If the grease does build
    up it can flame (especially if you are grilling something greasy
    like sausages or ribs) so, though not a fanatic about it, I keep
    it pretty clean.  We also put a piece of fire resistant concrete
    (looks like a piece of concrete panelling) under the cabinets near
    the stove to really make sure there are never any problems with
    the heat from the grille.  (Having 2 teenagers that like to cook
    tends to make one EXTRA cautious.)
                      
    Lastly, when I purchased mine on sale at Lechmere I bought the extended
    parts/service warranty for $99.00.  My Jenn-Air is unconditionally
    guaranteed for 5 years.

I installed a Jenn-Aire vent for my SO's house in San Jose. We
ran a 3"X6" square duct through the toe section under the cabinet
under the stove top and the cabinet with the 4 drawers (luckily
the drawer cabinet did not have a bottom so we were able to
assemble the duct in sections and get to the hole we cut on the
outside wall). The house was a slab-floor, BTW.

The reason that the Jenn aire works is that they have a dual
squirrel cage fan with a lot of suction. The grease was trapped
and filtered by two stage filters; the grease trapping alunimium
filter; then the activated charcoal filter.

Our current house has a duct-less vent from Sears; working on the
same principle.

cal hoe

                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3038.0                   Venting a gas range?                     2 replies
CLOSUS::HOE "toddlin' Sam's daddy"                    8 lines  20-FEB-1989 17:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did a search through 1111.8 Appliances_Cooking to see if any
talked about venting a gas range with self cleaning oven. We have
a Tappan that sets off the smoke alarm every time we used the
self cleaner function. Is there a way to vent the stove's oven
to the range hood? The other problem is that it gets too hot to
use during the summer.

cal
================================================================================
Note 3038.1                   Venting a gas range?                        1 of 2
OASS::B_RAMSEY "Bruce Ramsey"                        14 lines  21-FEB-1989 14:01
                             -< Feature not a Bug >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All ovens generate additional heat into the room.  Some more, some
    less depending on how well insulated.  My grandmother used to refuse
    to cook in the summer because the kitchen would get to hot.  We
    ate a lot of fresh fruit and dishes which did not need to be cooked
    or could be made on the burners.
    
    Think of it as a feature that you are helping out your heating system
    in the winter not as a problem you are causing in the summer to
    your air conditioner. ;^)
    
    Self cleaning ovens just burn the mess off the inside of the interior
    of the oven.  This is done by excessive heat.  The smoke detector
    is going off because you are burning things.  THe smoke detector
    does not know you want to this time.  

    I'm assuming that you don't want to replace your range with a Jenn-Aire.
    
    The simplest idea is a ductless range hood.   The filters will trap
    the soke and grease, but will not, of course, help you with the heat
    problem.
    
    When I did my kitchen remodel, instead of reinstalling the old range
    hood,  I put a combined microwave oven and hood over the range.  I
    never realized how useful these things could be!  The hood part can be
    adapted to be ductless, but I vented mine up into the attic and out
    through the roof.  Could you do the same?  If you go ductless, then the
    microwave  is still a big win -- you will use the regular oven less,
    and generate less heat!
    
    Do you have a room above the kitchen?  Can you run the duct in the
    thickness of the wall?  Can you build a box around it in the room
    upstairs room?
    
    When you buy a hood, there will be instructions saying how much duct it
    will pump air through.   100 feet is typical.  6" round or 10" x 3 1/2"
    rectangular is typically the minimum size.  100 feet sound like a lot,
    right?  Wrong. Each 90 degree bend counts as 25ft, each adaptor as so many
    feet, etc.  There should be a table with the hood giving the numbers.  
    
    
                                 I hope that some of these random thought
    thelp.
    
    	Andrew
    

    I have a question about installing a range hood/vent.  The situation
    is that the stove is on  an outside was so the vent will go directly
    through the wall, no additional duct work will be necessary.  So
    the hole is cut in the wall like so:
    
    			-----------------------------
    			|                            |
    			|			     |
    			------------------------------
    
    the sleve from the range hood fits into this opening, and then from
    outside of the house you slide in the other half - okay everything
    is fine to this point.  Now the directions call for wrapping duct
    tape around the joint.  My question is the joint is in the wall,
    the hood has to be in place for the two to met how the heck do I
    wrap the duct tape around.
    
    I got to believe that the answer is really obvious - so obvious
    that it has gone right over my head!!!!
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kathy

    We're looking to replace our stove and I think we want to have a
    griddle as part of the stove top.  In my view, perhaps romantic, the
    griddle could be used the way short-order cooks use them, to fry
    hamburgers, stir up a bunch of sauteed vegetables, fry and scramble
    eggs, bake pancakes and french toast, make grilled-cheese sandwiches.

    My wife, she of the cooler head, thinks a griddle would only be useful
    for pancakes, french toast, and grilled-cheese sandwiches.  She says
    that the other things will produce too much liquid that will have
    nowhere to go and will spatter horizontally all over the stove surface.
    To quote, "We have a frying-pan style griddle and I wouldn't use it for
    scrambled eggs, vegetable sauteeing, hamburgers, so why would I use a
    builtin griddle for those things?"

    So, what do you think?  And, while we're at it, what about grills,
    deepfat fryers, and other stovetop accessories?  We're talking gas
    stove here, by the way.

   	My parents had an eletric stove with a griddle insert.  It was the size
   of 2 burners, front to back.  I never liked it.  The removable burner part
   was ackward to remove but not too heavy but the griddle insert was heavy and 
   ackward.  You had to wait for it to cool before removing it.  It had a 
   divet at one end that collected the extra liquid but try removing the 
   griddle without spilling the liquid.  We never used it much, when we did it 
   was for grilled cheese and french toast.  It was easier to use two frying 
   pans.

   	I agree with your wife.

   	Bonnie

Listen to your wife.  Stove top griddles don't provide enough room to play
short-order cook, they don't have that giant slab of heat-controlling steel
and they don't have the gutter for ditching liquid.  

In re deep fryers and such, if you deep fry a lot, then sure.  If not, it
would be better to get one of the table-top fryers.  Keep in mind that you
need some SERIOUS ventilation for grills and deep fryers.  Most of the 
stoves I've seen in use don't really hack it.  They keep the smoke and 
grease down to no worse than a regular stove with no ventilation, but 
I'd expect them to do better than that. 

On that same subject, all the expensively warmed air you shoot outdoors to keep
the air in the kitchen clean is replaced by cold outside air.  It can get 
distincly chilly next to some of these stoves.  And if you have a nice,
tight house, you can cause a pressure differential between the inside and
outside that will pull smoke and fumes down chimneys and cause what seem to
be inexplilcable drafts in other parts of the house.  As Dave Barry says, I'm
not making this up....
						>>>==>PStJTT

    We have a Dacor with a griddle/grill module. we about never use
    the griddle, unless we have company for breakfast and need to turn
    out lots of pancakes or french toast. However, we use the *grill*
    at least once a week; ribs, steaks, fish, etc come out great. 
    
    You do need to crack open a window when you use the grille because
    of the ventilation system; as .2 mentioned, this can make it a bit
    chilly... our house is actually quite drafty, but the vent on our
    stove moves about 350cfm on its slowest setting, and "thasa lotta 
    air"....

    ...tom

    We have a Jenn-Air electric with a griddle insert.  I too had visions
    of turning out a dozen pancakes at a time, etc.  I tried this several
    times when we first got it about 3 years ago and haven't used it since.
    
    The main problem is uneven heat distributiion.  The heating element is
    not in the griddle itself but rather under the griddle.  It resembles
    an oven heating element.  The griddle is placed on top of this.  (A gas
    version may work great.)
    Another drawback is the non-stick surface scratches rather easily, so
    you have to use plastic or nylon utensils.
    
    As for the grease, the Jenn-Air has a trough that runs around the
    perimeter of the griddle.  There is a hole at one end so that
    accumulated grease runs into a collection jar underneath the unit.
    
    Jim

    I, too, had a gas stove with a grill.  Note that I HAD one, just
    got rid of it for a number of reasons.
    
    The grill has many drawbacks, as mentioned in other replies.
    Splatters all over the place no matter what you do, poor heat
    distribution which greatly reduces your actual cooking surface but
    does make a "keep-warm" area available, not that much surface to
    begin with, grease accumulation which can be hazardous if not cleaned
    up immediately, always a cleaning problem, surface must be tilted
    back a bit if the grill has a perimeter drain and holding area for
    grease, etc.
    
    I used mine quite a bit when I first got it, but I became very tired
    of all of the above problems.  While none are very aggravating by
    themselves (except for the possibility of fire), they do add up
    to what can be a very annoying cleaning requirement.
    
    Lee

      Like  the reply a couple earlier we also have a Jenn-Aire cook top
      with a grill/griddle fixture.  They are very slow to  heat,  don't
      get hot enough (to my way of thining) and because they're wired to
      ALWAYS run the down-draft vent  when  grilling/griddling  the  air
      flow makes it too cool to cook on the side next to the vent.
      
      For  my  money the oven broiler is better for "grilling".  In fair
      weather we use the gass grill on our deck.  The Jenn-Aire grill is
      a real *MESS* to clean!
      
      For  a  griddle, but one (or two!)  of thouse square griddles that
      look like a shallow aluminum fry  pan.   Thats  what  we  use  for
      grilled cheses sandwiches, pancakes, etc.
      
      What  I  do  like  in the Jenn-Aire is the Wok burner -- a concave
      electric burner that fits the bottom of the Wok.  This burner  can
      replace  the  larger  burner  in  any  or the Jenn-Aire two burner
      inserts. It works well, although I'd like if got just a little bit
      hotter.   The  spot  where our grill/griddle fits is almost always
      occupied by a two burner insert, one of which is the Wok burner.
      
      Yes, the grill/griddle can be "fun" occasionally, but for everyday
      use you'll prefer to have the extra two burners.

I've got a Jenn-Air with the grill and we tend to use it 3-4 times a week. I do
have a second set of burners that I plug into the grill section during holiday
cooking season for the added surface space. I really like the grill during the
cold season. It's nice to grill a steak without mittens ;^)

BTW: the replacement burners for the grill side are wired such that the fan
doesn't run.

    my grill has been moved out and I kept the top peices, great for
    putting a hot pot on and if it boils over it is cought in the jar
    under neath.  dito for not buying it.

    I don't believe I've ever seen such agreement in a note.  My wife (.0),
    who also agreed, loved all your responses.  No griddle for us.

    Now, what's the difference between "updraft" grills and "downdraft"
    grills?  The downdrafts are more common, and some of the answers above
    indicated problems with cold air coming in to replace what the
    downdrafts pump out.  Are updrafts better?  It sounds like they'd be
    similar to a regular range-hood exhaust fan.  For that matter, do
    range-hood exhaust fans cause cold-air entry problems.

    I had my first kitchen accident that I really don't know how
    to clean up.  Ideas, please!  -- this is a rented apartment :(
    
    I placed a tupperware type bowl on a very hot electric stove 
    burner and left it there for maybe 3 seconds.  The plastic melted
    to almost each coil.
    
    My mother told me to burn it off, but I know better than to
    poison myself.
    
    I tried scraping with a razor blade with some success, but there 
    have to be other ways to get this plastic off.
    
    aud...

    I hate to say this :^) but I  agree  with your mom.  As you are worried
    about fumes, open all the doors and windows, stick  a fan in one window
    blowing out, stay by a window in the kitchen (so you can keep an eye on
    the stove ) which has air coming in and let the stuff burn off. 
    
    grins,
    gjd
    

    I had that problem once.  I removed the burner, took it outside and
    burned the remaining plastic off with a propane torch.  Just stand
    upwind and the fumes are no problem.  After it cooled, I removed any
    remaining residue with acetone (fingernail polish remover or PVC pipe
    cleaner).
    
    Bob

    I don't know if this will work or not, try a can of freeze spray,
    hopefully the frozen brittle plastic will scrape off easier. At
    least you would not have to worry about fumes.
    
    							Chris

Well, this looks like the right note.

I have a sears down draft combination cooktop and oven.  I detest it for the
following reasons:
	(1) You can't have any of the back burners on without having the 
	 fan on.
	(2) You can't turn on the oven without having the fan come on.
	(3) The fan is unbelievably noisy.  The repair person informed
	us that is working correctly.
	(4) Compared to a conventional hood, the down draft does not
	work very well.  (probably has to do with sucking hot air down)

This is an 'open' style house; having a big racket in the kitchen definitely
detracts from the ambiance in the dining room and livingroom.  Besides, one
of the things that attracted us to this house in the first place was that
someone could muck about in the kitchen and still follow the conversation
in the livingroom.  With the oven on this is not true.

I have tried jenn-air at the house of friends.  It is every bit as noisy.

The kitchen is layed out in such a way that putting in a conventional updraft
fan would require extensive expensive work.

Here are my questions:
	(1) Does any one know of a quiet downdraft oven/cooktop?
	(2) Why does the fan have to be on when the oven is running?
	(3) Why does the fan have to be on when the back burners are on?
	(4) What would happen if we just re-wired the fan such that it only
	came on when it was needed (when we turned it on)?  I wouldn't mind 
	having the fan on for greasy and smelly operations; these are 
	almost always short.

(The fan is also on automatically for the griddle and grill, but that doesn't
bother me.  Not that I use either of these attachments much, not being a big
fan of either steak or pancakes.)

Thanks,
Margaret.

There are less noisy alternatives.   I have an externally mounted downdraft
system.   The fan and motor are mounted on the outside of the house.
Ductwork runs through the basement to the downdraft attachment located
directly behind the cooktop.   There are a few manufacturers of these
things... Kitchenaid made mine.  It isnt quiet but neither is it too
noisy.  

-Larry Cohen

    re:.-1: "use freeze spray"
    
    Assuming this would work, I think just putting the element in the
    freezer would be easier.
    
    Of course, you can always buy a new element..
    
    __Rich

Has anyone had experience with the KitchenAid Downdraft vent system? 
It is a vent that is 35"w x 2.25"d x 23"h  that is installed behind a cooktop.  


The brochure says to add  downdraft exhaust to any KitchenAid built-in cooktop.
Can they be installed with another brand of cooktop?


Do downdrafts work?  This one has 900CFM with 180 degree venting capability.
I am most concerned with it pulling steam, from a large pot of boiling 
liquid, away from the upper cabinet (solid cherry which will be polyurethaned
with lots of coats!).


The cooktop is 36" an at an angle across a corner.  Based on the way the
cabinets are position, a 30" range hood is about 2" too large to fit above it.
Any other suggestions for a venting method besides this downdraft?

                   Thanks,
                    Donna

I have that very model installed in our new kitchen.
My feeling is that it works as well as a down draft system can
work.   I would rather have a hood over with the same 900 cfm fan
mounted externally.   By the way,  900 cfm is about twice the capacity
of most other brands.   Its about a million times better than one
of those fake hood/filter setups that dont vent outside.

It will suck in the steam of a large pot.
It should work with most cooktops (I assume).
My biggest complaint about this downdraft system is that the
grease tends to get pulled down to the cooktop more easily hence
the cooktop tends to need lots of cleaning.
I dont know if this true of cooktops with center mounted downdraft systems.
It also is so powerfull that it pulls some heat away as well.
The burners are not as effective when the blower is on high.
Another minor point is that the exhaust pipe is 9" diameter. 
This may not sound too big but its huge compared to the 8" heat duct
variety.
 
Another downdraft system to consider is made by Thermador.  They
tend to be expensive.  I believe their model pops up a few inches
when you activate it.  It might behave a little more like a hood this
way.

    The Theramador Cook 'n Vent is an excellent cooktop.  It comes in
    several styles ranging from European black glass sleekness to a brushed
    stainless with an electric grddle in the middle.  The burners are gas,
    with one hi-output burner.  What makes the unit unusual is the exhaust;
    when you want to use it, you push a button and an 8-inch vent
    electrically raises behind the entire width of the stove.  Because the
    fan can be remotely monuted, the exhaust is virtually silent.  And
    since the intake vent is 8 inches high, it works much better than the
    Jenn-aire style (which barely catches half the cooking fumes).
    
    The only catch is that the Thermdaor is expensive, about $1200
    including the fan and intake, but excluding the ductwork you'll need to
    carry the fumes outside.  I don't have one, but some friends in maine
    do, and they love it.
    
    Andy

    I acquired a stove which had been used by tenants for the last 30
    years.  It is stainless steel.  I have literally scraped it down with a
    steel spatula to remove the grease covering it, then scrubbed it clean
    with a "soft scrub" cleanser.  It looked beautiful - until I noticed
    this morning it has rust spots all over one side of the oven door 
    (toward the window.)
    
    My problem:  how do you keep stainless steel from rust spotting when it
    is exposed to water splashes?  Do you just make sure it is always
    completely dry, after washing or accidents?  Or is there a special
    cleaner or surface coating that can be used/applied to keep the steel
    more resistent to rust spotting?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ellen

    Augghh...dredging up fragments of memory about the behavior of
    stainless steel....
    
    As you have discovered, "stainless" is a relative thing, and some
    stainless steels are more rust-resistant than others.  It also
    depends on the surface condition (sometimes), and what is on the 
    surface (sometimes).
    Some stainless will rust in the presence of "normal" steel, so
    if for example you scrub some kinds of stainless with steel wool,
    leaving minute particles of steel on the surface, those will act
    as local initiators of rusting.
    I don't know enough about this to suggest much of anything to do,
    especially since there is no way of knowing just what kind of stainless
    steel the stove is made of, and with my lack of knowledge it wouldn't
    help if I did.
    I don't see anything wrong with what you did, unless there is some
    chemical in the soft-scrub cleaner that would act on the stainless
    steel in some way to initiate rusting...not likely, but I expect
    it's possible.  I guess I'd scrub off the rust with something really
    inert, like Bon-Ami on a sponge, and just keep an eye on it.  I
    suppose you could wax it if you wanted to, that might help.

    Something you might want to try is Lemon oil. It's used in restrauants
    to keep the stainless appliances fron rusting. 
    
    Jim
    I used to work for a company that cleaned appliances....ugh.

To get off the existing rust, you can use navel jelly.
-Amy

    Re: .3
    
    I believe you mean "Naval Jelly".  Navel jelly would make your
    belly button kinda sticky....
    
    
    The problem with "stainless steel" is that it really isn't.  Stainless,
    that is.  Ask anyone with a DeLorean.  The composition of stainless
    steels vary widely, depending on what characteristics the manufacturer
    was looking for.  Most stainless steels used in kitchen equipment
    (sinks, stoves, etc.) will rust, especially if they come in contact
    with other steel or iron items.  They also develop stains from water.
    Luckily, you can generally remove any stains without too much effort;
    but they'll be back.
    
    				Steve

    Re. .4 (Steve)

    >The problem with "stainless steel" is that it really isn't.  Stainless,
    >that is.  Ask anyone with a DeLorean.  The composition of stainless
    >steels vary widely, depending on what characteristics the manufacturer
    >was looking for.  Most stainless steels used in kitchen equipment
    >(sinks, stoves, etc.) will rust, especially if they come in contact
    >with other steel or iron items.  
 
    You're right.  Corrosion phenomena is much more complicated than most 
    people think, as there are at least 8 different forms of corrosion.
    Most people think of corrosion as being simply "Uniform attack"-put
    a piece of "metal" in a wet environment, and it is attacked evenly 
    on all exposed faces.  

    Stainless steels (steels containing at least 11 percent Chromium) are 
    generally fairly resistant to uniform attack and galvanic corrosion, but 
    they are still susceptible to other forms.  In particular, they are prone 
    to attack when geometries restrict air and water flow (Crevice 
    corrosion/Differential aeration), and when improper welding techniques 
    are used (Sensitization).  

    Your DeLorean example is the "classic" example used when talking 
    about stainless steel corrosion.  If a wet leaf fails on the hood and 
    stays there for a while, you can see the outline where it was.  This is 
    due to different amounts of oxygen being able to get to the surface of 
    the exposed metal versus the metal under the leaf, and this creates an 
    electrochemical cell.

    I'm not so sure about the comment about stainless steel corroding 
    "especially" if it comes in contact with steel or iron.  If    
    steel/iron comes in contact with SS, it will be the steel/iron that
    corrodes (galvanic couple).  The stainless steel should corrode only if 
    crevices are present, but it is not essential that it be steel or 
    iron. 

    Greg B.
    
    By the way, did you hear about the diplomas that the Naval Academy
    got this year?  They were all labelled "Navel" by accident. . .
    

Re: .5

You may be right about rust spots coming from other non-stainless steel
items that themselves rust; I was passing on a comment I just heard yesterday
from a kitchen designer when we were discussing stainless steel sinks (I
don't like them - am planning to put in a composite sink.)  But I have
seen stainless steel rust under conditions such as you mentioned.

	Steve (who took but flunked Materials Science)

Due to the very high iron content of our water, our stainless steel sink
as well as our stainless steel eating and cooking utensils get rust stains 
quite frequently.  This does not happen if they are wiped off while wet.

Stainless stove tops will frequently show a faint yellowing where they heat
up a lot.  If they have a burnished finish, this can be easily removed with a 
wire brush, though.

Re. 7

>Due to the very high iron content of our water, our stainless steel sink
>as well as our stainless steel eating and cooking utensils get rust stains 
>quite frequently.  This does not happen if they are wiped off while wet.

Do you think that it is the stainless steel that is corroding, or that 
it is the dissolved iron that is precipitating out as rust on the 
metallic surface?  The galvanic couple (dissolved iron is anodic 
relative to the SS) accelerates the normal iron oxidation.  Without the 
benefit of seeing your situation, I'd venture to say that it's the latter.

Greg B.

I'm pretty sure the rust stains we see are the water/iron.  They just "adhere"
better to metals with a high iron content.  On our "silver"ware, the rust 
stains come off with a bit of elbow grease and hot soapy water.  On those
utensils with a rough burnished look, they require a bit more effort (a brushing
with SOS usually does it...but not as much as a real rust stain needs).
If the water sits and evaporates on something nonferrous (-ic?), there is no 
stain left at all.  It's like the presence of other iron causes the iron in the
water to oxidize, and leaves a rust stain when the water evaporates.

(Isn't it amazing...take 1 advanced chem course, wait 20 years, and now it's all
magic...)

					-JP

    
    I've heard of folks who rub their stainless steel sinks down
    with baby oil on a weekly basis to keep them shiny and unblemished.
    Doing the same to an older stove would probably cause a problem
    when the surfaces got hot though.

Re: .10

I'm astonished these people don't just put their kitchen behind glass and
not use it - that way the pretty sink won't get blemished.

(Actually, I'm only partly joking.  According to the kitchen designer I'm
working with, some people have a "show kitchen" that is almost never used,
as well as a more normal "working kitchen".)

				Steve

    Hmmmm,
        My mother has had a stainless steel kitchen sink and counter(all
    one piece) for 45 yrs. and it has never had a rust spot. In fact it's
    the only thing in the house that shows no signs of age. And it has
    seen everything! It has never been given any special care. My house has
    a 20yr old sink and no problems either. Is there some difference in
    the material used in sinks? I use a stainless steel scrubber ball and
    Fantastik to get the accumulated grease off my sink and it looks great.
    Same for the hood over my stove(no rust there either,and it gets
    steamed by the water kettle).
        I don't like the oil idea too much. I would think it would get
    gummy and  collect dust. I know Rustoleum makes a black paint for
    grilles, maybe they make a heat resistant "clear" product.
                    Mary

  As was mentioned in one of the replies, there are lots of different
  kinds of stainless steel, and some are less resistant to rusting than
  others. It's also possible that some previous cleaning effort abraded
  the surface, so that it now provides an especially good surface for
  new rust to form. 

  The oil suggestion might not be a bad idea, but it would be a good
  idea to try to find a product more suited to the job. Commercial
  restaurant equipment is shipped with a light coating of something
  which is oily, but which may contain a silicone, I'm not really sure.
  This is mainly to protect the finish until it's delivered, but some
  remains, even on oven surfaces, for quite a while. You might be able
  to find this stuff in an auto or hardware supply store. If you can
  find some of it, whatever it is, here's what you might try:

  First, remove all the rust with naval jelly and a non-abrasive pad (if
  possible). Then wash real well with hot water and a little dish
  liquid, and make sure it's rinsed real well with clear hot water. Dry
  it well, and then heat it up for an hour or so to make sure it's
  *really* dry. Let it cool down completely, and apply the "oil",
  working it in well, and removing as much as possible with a clean rag
  or paper towels. This will probably inhibit new rust for at least a
  few months.

  There a couple of disadvantages to this "oil" treatment. One is that
  the oven will smell a little the first couple of times it's used after
  the treatment. Another is that this oil really shows up fingerprints,
  and also makes them hard to clean off. Typical kitchen cleaners like
  Fantastik and 409 actually seem to make it worse. Hot water is usually
  better, with a tiny bit of dish liquid if it's really stubborn.

Shortly after installing my new stainless steel sink in the kitchen I scratched
it by putting a board with the nail in it on its top.  The sink was this
burnished, low-gloss type.  I used #600 wet type emery paper to polish the
scratched area.  I was so successful that after two or three weeks of use I
could not find the spot anymore.

I think that this might be a solution to your problem.  You could start with 
#240 to remove some material and then follow with #400 or 600 to get the right 
shine.

I also used the special commercial cleaner for stainless steel, formica etc
(bought it on garage sale).  It sure made the sink look perfect, but it would
only last until you got it wet which with sinks happens rather often.  I gave
it up and now use Comet once in a while to clean and bleach the surface.

Hope it helps.

Greg

Folk remedy application number 73

    Re .7:  "never ever ever put a down-draft range in an open plan house."
    
    Would you please elaborate.

    down-draft ranges are *very* noisy.  The fan comes on automatically if
    you use the back burners.  You can monkey with the switches so that the
    fan doesn't come on unless you turn it on, but the manufacturers will
    tell you that that is dangerous.  Finally, down-draft just plain
    doesn't work as well.  Spend the extra money on a nice looking hood.
    
    I have had some hints on using fiberglass insulation to cut down on the
    noise.  I'll be trying this!

Since I was planning on putting in a down-draft range in an open plan home
I'd like to hear more too!  What brand of range is it?  Do you know the CFM
rating of the fan?  I was trying to avoid having a hood because I don't like
something hanging down above the range.  I think some of these ranges offer 
a fan mounted on the side of the house to avoid the noise issue and gain more
power.  I was not going to consider them because they cost $$ and give the
house the restaurant look.  I may reconsider...

    Greg

    I think it's a bad concept. I looked a replacing my down-draft with
    another brand, but the only ones that would be quieter had outdoor fans
    for bigger bucks.
    
    I know 5 people with these ranges, 4 different brands (jenn-aire,
    thermador, roper, sears). No one likes them.  They look nifty in the 
    store.  Notice that none of the showrooms allow you to turn them on. 
    Notice that none of the manufacturers publish decibel ratings.
    
    At gourmet stores you can buy iron grills to lay across your burners
    for indoor grilling.  Way cheaper, way quieter.
    
    Also consider what heat and grease to naturally.  My ceiling needs
    cleaning because the down-draft just plain doesn't work as well as a
    hood.
    
    Moderator: This discussion should be moved to a non-Acorn note, but I
    don't know how to do it.

A discussion about downdraft ranges began with the following digression in 
another note.  The replies it generated have also been moved here.


================================================================================
Note 585.7                    Acorn Houses anyone?                       7 of 11
TOOK::M_OLSON                                        17 lines   7-NOV-1990 11:56
                             -< live in an acorn >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One thing: never ever ever put a down-draft range in an open plan
    house.  This is the one serious goof the previous owners made.  In
    their defense, we thought the down-draft was great until we moved in
    and actually lived with it.

What about the ranges with fan intakes that rise up from the back of the
cooktop?  Thermador has this, as well as Magic Chef.  I wasn't interested
in these so I don't know the details, but I'd think it would be an improvement
over a regular downdraft range.

				Steve

I love my Jennaire downdraft.  It does make noise, and I don't have an open 
house, but it is VERY effective.  It's so powerful, it can suck smoke out of
out wood stove.  We always make sure to open a window when we use it.  When I
boil stuff, I can see the steam being sucked downwards.  When I am reducing a 
large quantity of stock, I no longer get fogged windows, either.  We have a 
microwave over the stove, and it has its vents directed back inwards, but I 
never turn on its vent.  By the way, the fan in the microwave will come on 
automatically when it gets too warm underneath.  This happened the first time I
self cleaned the oven.  Turning on the downdraft took care of the excess heat.
I have even used the grill, and not caused the microwave fan to come on.  So,
that debunks the "heat rising beats fan pulling" theory.  

I will add that I have the new gas cooktop - electric oven combo unit, which 
might have a more powerful fan.  I also have about a short run of round duct 
with only one elbow, and no round to rectangular converter.  Longer runs and 
angles or converters will decrease the efficiency of the fan.

All in all there are only 2 disadvantages.  First, the noise, but with a 
fan in our humidifier, and a fan in our wood stove, and a fan in our air 
cleaner, and fans moving air around the house, its not really a big issue.
Second, the unit is so powerful, that I have to move the pans towards the 
downdraft because it pulls the flames over a bit, which also makes it harder
to do very low flame cooking when the unit is on.

Yes - it's too bad the downdraft units all have such teeny-tiny ovens!

			Steve

We have a Jenn-Aire all-electric that vents outside and doesn't have a teeny
oven.  I know the ones that vent inside do have small ovens.  We have never run
into the over size as a limitation and have always been very happy with the
whole unit.

      ****CAUTION****  BE  VERY CAREFUL IF YOU ATTEMPT TO USE FIBERGLASS
      OR OTHER INSULATION TO QUITE YOUR RANGE VENT!  Insulation can also
      trap the stove's heat causing fire and/or electrical dangers. Read
      the instructions that the stove  manufacture  provides.   If  they
      don't specifically approve you should think twice.
      
      ==================================================================

      We  have  a Jenn-Aire cook top (no oven) in an open-plan home.  We
      like the stove.  Noise?  I don;t think that the down-draft is much
      more or less noisy than most range hoods.  Effective? Hell no! The
      down-draft is M_U_C_H less effective than a hood. In fact it sucks
      the  heat  away from the broiler or grill so that the side next to
      the down-vent cooks noticeable more slowly.  Meanwhile,  the  heat
      and  steam continue to rise.  If were using the vent and pots/pans
      at the same time we use the burners further away from the vent. We
      have  a six burner stove, and generally we have six burners in it,
      rather than 4 plus grill/broiler.  The wall oven does  better  for
      broiling and a fry pan does better than the grill.
      
      Appearance  was our consideration.  Our cook top is on a peninsula
      between the kitchen and dining areas; we didn't want it obstructed
      by a hood. Most of the time we don't use the vent. Our kitchen has
      an exhaust vent for our air exchanger and this takes care  of  all
      but extreme conditions pretty well.
      
      SUMMARY:   A  down  vent  MAY  be better aesthetically but WILL be
      poorer functionally.  This is true for any type of home; open-plan
      vs. closed rooms makes little difference.

As this came up in JP's note on downdraft range exhausts, it reminded
me to ask: what's a good way to provide air intake for kitchen exhaust?
We have a powerful range hood, and, like JP's, it draws smoke and air
back down the chimney when it's operating. This is a real problem. But
the solution of opening a window is also unacceptable, because (1) it's
a tremendous waste of energy, and (2) it still isn't enough to prevent
backflow in the chimney. I realize a heat exchanger installed in a wall
would be a possible solution, but it might still not provide enough air
flow for all the expense involved. Any ideas?

>me to ask: what's a good way to provide air intake for kitchen exhaust?
>We have a powerful range hood, and, like JP's, it draws smoke and air
>back down the chimney when it's operating. This is a real problem. But
>the solution of opening a window is also unacceptable, because (1) it's
>a tremendous waste of energy, ...
      
      You can't avoid wasting energy if your exahausting to the outside.
      It may be more noticable if cold make-up air comes though an  open
      window,  but  is just as much waste if it leaks at numerous places
      around the house.
      
      An  air  exchanger  that  is not part of the vent exahust won't do
      much good.  One that is will likely clog very quickly with grease.
      I've never seen air exchangers intended to handle a range hood.
      
      I  believe  that  you  must decied to live with either (a) kitchen
      odors / heat / huidity or (b) a waste of energy to vent.

>                            ... and (2) it still isn't enough to prevent
>backflow in the chimney.
      
      Hmmm...  Either you are using a heavy duty industrial size vent --
      one designed fdor venting large blast furnaces --  or  you  ave  a
      problem  with your chimney not drawing well enough.  Seriously, if
      you chimney is creating enough up-draft a home size range  exhaust
      should  NOT suck air down the chimney when a window near the range
      is open.  Do you have trouble staring a  fire  in  your  stove  or
      fireplace?  There is a [WOOD]STOVES (?) conference someplace...

Good points. I guess you're right that there's really no alternative to
losing the energy. The hood is a commercial unit (1600 cfm, if I
recall), and if I open enough windows in the kitchen wide enough,
there's no problem with the draft in the fireplace flue, but it sure
gets cold in the kitchen!

    If you have a fireplace insert for a wood stove isn't it sealed
    well enough to keep the fumes out when you use the range hood?
    If your just burning logs in a fireplace.......DON"T mention anything
    about wasting energy/heat/natural resorces...:-) 
    Seriously, we had the same type problem with the stove hood and the
    fireplace flue. We don't use the fireplace at all, so I sealed it 
    with some insulation and stopped the backflow.
    
    Jim

How could any woodburning mechanism in which some air from the house is
fed to the fire avoid this problem? Even a really good woodstove, if
not fed directly from the outside, will allow air to be sucked back
into the room when an exhaust fan is running. It seems to me that flues
and exhaust fans are basically incompatible when all the windows are
shut. In fact, I'm now beginning to wonder what happens when the gas
furnace and range hood are on at the same time!

>   ...(1600 cfm, if I recall)...
      
      I don't know what is "normal" for range hoods, but 1600 CFM sounds
      like a real hurricane.  With an 8 foot ceiling that would  totally
      change  200  square feet of kitchen floor space every minute.  For
      comparison a 600 CFM dust collector can suck up the shavings  from
      a 12" wide power planner.  
      
      Maybe 160 CFM?
      
      If your hood is really 1600 CFM it may be a serious overkill. Your
      range hood may be just tooooooo big for your home kitchen.  

    I would like to second that 1600 cfm is extremely high.  When I was
    looking at bathroom exhuast fans they were in the range of 35-75 cfm.
    
    Granted a kitchen range hood should be able to handle a higher amount
    of air but 1600.  That's two orders of magnatude.  Your restartant hood
    maybe more than you need for home use.

I was recently looking at range hoods.  The "high performance" hoods
were under 400CFM, most were in the 100-250CFM range.

		Steve

Wish this note was around when I was shopping for a downdraft unit.

Normal CFMs for a downdraft unit with the fan inside the house are in
	the 450-600 range.  I think the cheapo no vent units are in 100cfm
	range.

	We ended buying the kichenaid externally mounted fan rated at 900cfm.
	It does come with a reostat to control the speed.

	1600 cfms ???  Wow!!!    I have very tight house and a wood stove. The
	fan has not caused our chimney to back up.   Our framer thought it 
	might but so far it hasnt.

	Fans are noisy...period.  Even our externally mounted fan is noisy
	at the stove vent.  I guess whenever you try to displace a lot of air
	through a small opening you get noise.

	The noise issue aside, I think I would have preferred a hood but for
	structural and esthetic reasons we needed a down draft unit.  
	I wish I could have afforded the Thermador because I like the back
	vent that pops up about 6 inches.   I think this would have avoided
	the problems of the venting sucking heat away.  Another problem,
	at least with the back venting systems is that the grease tends to
	get drawn along the surface to the vent.  Just a little more messy.
	I would like to get a customized vent to raise the rear about 6 inches.

	If the choice is between a downdraft and a hood that does not vent
	there is no question in my mind:  the vented downdraft is a big win.
	IMHO the best, however, is an external wall mounted hood setup ... and
	1600 cfm's sounds great for cooking cajun!

	-Larry

	

I double checked, and it's 1200 cfm, not 1600. We wanted a powerful
hood, but didn't anticipate problems with the flue backing up. It's
actually got two 600-cfm blowers, so we can just turn one off. It sure
clears the kitchen of smoke in a hurry, though!

Doesn't it seem, though, that if you build a really tight house, that
even a more reasonable exhaust is going to cause flues to back up?

    If you build a really tight house, and don't put in some source of
    fresh air, such as an air-to-air heat exchanger, you'll have far
    worse problems than a backed-up flue!
    
    				Steve

    Another solution:  Become a vegetarian.
    
    We had a range fan, but we just blocked it off because it was vented
    outside and leaky.
    
    None of the food we cook is greasy, so there's nothing but water vapor
    produced.  In the summer, the windows are open to reduce the humidity;
    in the winter, the added water vapor is a bonus.
                            --tom

re-.1
Never burn anything eh?

-j

This may not be the place for this question, but here goes:

I have an electric Jenn-Air with the center vent ducted to the 
outside.  The problem is that the vent keeps getting jammed open 
by leaves, etc, and may also be blown open by a steady wind on 
occasion.  it appears to be a pretty standard outside vent hood 
with an aluminum or steel flap door.

Two reasons to get this fixed:

1) Cold air is coming in through the stove into the kitchen
2) There is water in the ducting just inside of the external 
opening (I suppose this could be condensation?)

Any thoughts on how to jimmy the thing to make it more airtight, 
or harder to open?

Thanks

Re: .14

Replace the hood (probably a standard clothes dryer style) with a better
one, probably made of steel.  They are available with screens to keep
out leaves and birds, and some also have a magnet to hold the flap closed.

		Steve

  The magnet Steve mentioned might not allow the flap to open if it were
  too strong for your draft, but Jenn-Aire exhausts are pretty powerful,
  so it would be worth trying before spending money. I'd epoxy two small
  magnets, one on the flap, the other on the stationary part of the
  vent. Position them so that when the flap is closed, the magnets are
  not quite touching. That way, they'll provide extra holding force, but
  not so much that the flap won't open.

  If that doesn't work, there are different kinds of dryer vents, and
  you may be able to find one which works better than what you have. Or
  you may have to have something custom made. We had a vent custom-made
  at a very reasonable price (at All Metal in Acton, MA, if it helps
  you). It's aluminum (cheaper than stainless by quite a bit), and its
  main features which would help solve your problem are that it has an
  awning over the flap (which protects the flap from wind and rain,
  which is where your water may be coming from), and the flap itself is
  at a slight angle when at rest, not vertical. Also, there's a foam
  strip along the bottom edge to keep it from rattling. The extra weight
  provides a little extra force to keep it closed.

I had not meant to suggest adding your own magnet - I've purchased hoods
that had them built-in.

I recently bought a sturdy roof vent cap (at Somerville Lumber), which has
the screen I mentioned as well as a foam strip.  I don't think it's meant for
vertical applications, but I saw some there that were.

I've never liked the cheap and flimsy vents most stores sell for dryer
venting.  However, I did have good luck with a louvered plastic vent which
I used for a dryer.

			Steve

There's a dryer vent that's deeigned to keep wee-mousies out.
It's constructed with a ball stopper that floats with the exhaust
but will cap the vent when the air pressure is not there.

calvin

    When I got my Jennaire, the dealer threw in a Jennaire vent cap.  It's
    an ABS plastic housing with a flap that seals the ductwork, and a
    spring to make sure the seal opens when it's supposed to and stays
    closed when it's supposed to, too.  It works perfectly.

    Jennaire uses 5" or 6" duct -- 4" drier vents are too small.  The
    Jennaire wall cap works fine for me, too.  If yours is older, maybe
    it's a different style from what is available now.  
    
    Carl

Thanks for the ideas.  The one I have now is a hooded vent, and 
yes, it's a 6" duct from the stove.  I'll check to see if the 
Jenn-air vent will fit that opening and try that.  There is a 
metal flap, which seems to JUST close over the opening when the 
fan is not on, but certainly doesn't appear to have any magnetic 
closure.

ajw

    Re: .7
    
    It must have been intuitively obvious, because no one answered your
    note!
    
    Elaine

    
    We are remodeling our kitchen and we have our stove located in
    the center of the island.  We are going to install a ducted vent
    above the stove.  What is the right height for the vent ?  I am
    5'5" and my husband is 6'4".  Is there a range of efficiency, or
    does it depend on the strength of the fan.
    
    ..rke

    
    .0 - what I meant to ask was the height of the hood, not the vent !
    
    rke
    

Check the instructions for the cooktop/stove to see what height they
recommend.  The important thing is to not block the view of the cooktop, and
that also depends on how far out over the island the hood hangs.

Generally 24 inches above is a minimum.

		Steve

  Steve's right about the general guideline being minimum about 24". At
  that height, the hood will be at about 5' from the floor, which is
  quite low (and a possible hazard). 

  There's also usually a maximum specified above which it won't be
  effective (assuming it's effective anyway, and many are pretty much
  for decoration). For most hoods, this will be less than 36" above the
  cooktop surface. Ours specified something like 33" max and 24" min. We
  installed it at 30" (which happened to work well with the sizes of
  other things installed above), and I've bumped my head painfully on it
  a couple of times (I'm about 5'9"), but it projects almost to the
  front of the cooktop (i.e., about 22" from the back wall). If your
  hood projects less, you can mount it safely at 30" or less above the
  cooking surface.

    
    Well we bought the hood.  When we opened up the box it recommended
    20-24" above the cooktop.  My husband would prefer 33-36".  Is there
    a problem if the fan is not powerful enough ??? The rating was 17 cfm,
    and 7.0 scones.  What is a scone ???
    
    ..rita
    

    > Is there a problem if the fan is not powerful enough ??? The rating
    > was 17 cfm, and 7.0 scones.  What is a scone ???
    
    7.0 scones!!!  That sounds pretty good.  'Course, I suppose it depends
    on how much marmalade you use.

    

    scone  n.  a flat, round, leavened cake made of oatmeal, wheat flour,
    barley meal, or the like.  biscuit.

Sone -- a subjective unit of loudness for an average listener equal to the
loudness of a 1000-cycle sound that has an intensity of 40 decibels above the
listener's own threshold of hearing.

I looked in five dictionaries, but this was the only definition I could find, 
and I don't really understand it.  40db isn't all that loud, but I have no
idea what 7 of these units indicates.  Could be a small roar.

Scones are kind of like English muffins.

    7 Sones is really quite loud for a vent fan.  As for the
    17cfm capacity, I hope you misread that and it should be at least
    170.  17cfm is a faint breeze.  200cfm is rather typical, high-
    capacity vents are upwards of 400cfm.  
    
    If the fan is as loud as 7 sones, though, I would expect it to
    move a heck of a lot of air.  My ductless range hood is rated
    at 260cfm and about 4 sones, if I recall.  It is nice and quiet,
    especially at lower speeds.
    
    				Steve

    We're considering building an island with a cooktop.  I've looked
    into the downdraft venting systems that are available as add-ons
    (Braun and others) and would rather go with an overhead ventilation
    system for better exhaust removal.
    
    I am not having much success finding companies that make island
    type overhead systems.  Has anyone else seen any?
    
    						.dave.
    

    
    Dave,
    you might want to check with a company that
    does kitchens restaurants.  
    
    JD

    what i've found thus far costs well beyond anything i'd want to spend,
    like into the 2 to 3 thousand range.
    
    so, downdraft it'll be.
    
    						.dave.

  We ended up with the island, and a nice five burner GE cooktop with an
  integral downdraft system.  It works great.

  Now the only problem we have is miscellaneous cooking smells and smokes,
  specifically from the wall ovens.  When something burns (oops!), the smoke
  alarm quickly goes off.  

  We'd like to install either a wall vent above the cabinets or a ceiling vent
  above the ovens.  Has anyone ever installed a bathroom type ventilation system
  in an existing ceiling?  Just how difficult would this be?
  
  						.dave.

    Wow!  I just did this in the bathroom this weekend.  It wasn't
    difficult at all.  I went into the attic. (I have a ranch.  If you have
    a second story, this may not be your solution.)  I found the lamp I was
    replacing.  I removed the lamp, keeping all wiring, cut a larger hole
    in the ceiling, and installed the vent/light per the instructions that
    came with the vent.  
    
    Your extra difficulty would be wiring, but this shouldn't be any more
    difficult than installing an over-head light.
    
    Hope this helps.
    			JAM

>    Hope this helps.
    
    no not really, the kitchen is on the first floor, the second is quite
    finished, while the third isn't.
    
    I suspect I'll just wing it as I usually do.
    
    						.dave.

    KitchenAid makes a range hood which is several inches thick, mounts
    under the bottom of a top kitchen cabinet and slides out/retracts for
    use.  Looks real neat.
    
    Has anyone had experience with this technology?

  I'd like to replace an old range hood with a new one.
  The problem is that the existing hood has the exhaust
  pipe coming up off-center.  All of the hoods I've looked
  at have the exhaust pipe centered in the middle.  I'd really
  like to find a range hood with the pipe coming up on the
  right side so I won't have to cut new holes the the ceiling,
  top, bottom and middle shelves of the kitchen cabinet as
  well as put an angle in the pipe up in the attic.
  Anyone know of a hood like that?
  Thanks,
  John

    I currently have an electric range with an overhead microwave - all one
    unit.  I would like to replace it with a similar unit but one which has
    gas burners and an electric oven.  I want the gas burners to be
    industrial - meaning almost like a professional/retaurant quality.  My
    wife uses a Wok quite a bit and would appreciate the better gas units.
    Question - Does anyone know of a brand which offers this type of
    combination?

If you're looking for a combination double-oven and cooktop with gas 
cooktop but electric ovens, I think you'll come up empty-handed.  I'm not
even sure there are single oven/cooktop combinations like this, though
you might check out the Dacor brand as I seem to recall they had one.  Dacor
is good quality, but their cooktops tend to sacrifice utility for appearance.

			Steve

    A little clearer - one oven, one top, one microwave, in one
    freestanding unit with the oven electric and the top gas, Dacor is
    where in the 3M area? Thanks.

>>    A little clearer - one oven, one top, one microwave, in one
>>    freestanding unit with the oven electric and the top gas, Dacor is
>>    where in the 3M area? Thanks.

Just courious,  why do you care that the oven be electric?  

Garry

    >> Dacor is where in the 3M area? Thanks.
    
    We bought our Dacor stove at Bob's Appliance on 101A in Milford, NH
    (near the intersection of 101 and 101A).  Hey, I know that a name like
    "Bob's Appliance" sounds pretty hokey, but they were very nice folks.
    
    FWIW, we bought the unit with solid cast iron heating elements for the
    cooktop.  Mistake!  It does prevent spills from getting into heating
    elements, but the trade-off is that they are slow to heat and even
    slower to cool down.  If I had it to do all over again, I would opt for
    gas with a propane tank in the basement under the stairs.
    
    Chet

>>    slower to cool down.  If I had it to do all over again, I would opt for
>>    gas with a propane tank in the basement under the stairs.

I don't think it would be safe to have any kind of propane tank inside the
house.

Garry    

P.E. Fletcher in Nashua also carries Dacor.  We liked their products, but 
rejected their gas cooktop because the burners were too close together (but
liked their teeny simmer burner).  We ended up with a Sterling 5-burner
gas cooktop and a Whirlpool wall oven (after a disastrous experience with
a Thermador cooktop that never worked right.)

I like electric ovens better because they cook more evenly then gas.  Also,
it's hard to find gas self-cleaning ovens (though a few exist nowadays).
Most gas ovens are "continuous clean" which is a royal pain over time.  Unless
you're constantly using your oven, the cost of electricity vs. gas isn't
really an issue.

You may be able to find a slide-in range with a single electric oven (perhaps
even a convection oven) and a gas cooktop - I'm trying to remember where it
was I read of one.  Then get one of those combination vent hood/microwave
shelves and put a regular microwave on it.

				Steve

    We have a 13 year old O'Keefe and Merritt, self-cleaning gas 
    convectionaire oven with four gas burners and top microwave.
    
    Overall this unit is has held up well but we had to get a lot
    of bugs out (11 service calls the first 5 years)  before it 
    became dependable.  
    
    The convectionaire 'feature' was a royal pain. It's supposed 
    to cook food in a third of the time conventional ovens do. 
    What we found out is that it burned food in a third of the time.
    Pumpkin pies would burn to black on top, leaving the center 
    like liquid. It was almost like a large broiler. Timing was
    critical to get things out before it was turned to carbon.
    We finally called the service guy out (he knew us well) and
    he lowered the tempurature 40�. Now it works like a convectionaire
    should and I love it. 
    
    I think Tappan took over O'Keefe and Merritt about five years
    ago, so I'd check with them for what you want.
    
    Jodi-
    

    
    I can't believe you find it hard to find self-cleaning
    gas ovens!! Thats all I see. Electric ovens are
    cheaper but there is no problem finding either around
    here.
    

Re: .8

Really.  Are you seeing self-cleaning or continuous-cleaning?  The latter is
what I see everywhere.

				Steve

    
    Self cleaning... continous has a different surface that absorbs
    the grease. Self cleaning has a smooth surface and a cleaning
    cycle. My toaster oven is "continous clean".
    
    

    The O'Keefe and Merritt that I mentioned a couple replies
    back has what I would call 'self cleaning' mode. When it
    is put into this mode, the doors of both the oven and the
    microwave lock and the inside oven temps reach great
    proportions, literally turning all the crud to carbon.
    
    I hate to use this feature. It makes me nervous and usually
    burns out a heat-sensitive fuse in the process. We had the
    fuse replaced twice and finally had it removed. With that
    said and done, I would rather just clean the darn thing with
    Easy-Off or some such product.  
    
    Of course there was the time I removed some silly panel in 
    the back of the oven for a more thorough cleaning. Shortly 
    after heating up the oven, the kids smelled smoke. I went 
    into the kitchen to investigate. I warned the kids away and 
    opened the door. Instantly, a wall of flames wrapped around 
    my head. It happened so fast that I didn't have any time to
    react and didn't feel a thing. I quickly shut the door, 
    turned to the kids who were standing there is total disbelief.
    It's then that my 7 year old said "mom, your hair". I reached
    up and touched my bangs only to find a handful of carbon. I
    ran to a mirror and indeed found I had lost about a half an
    inch of bangs, a top sliver of eyebrows (luckily I was wearing
    glasses) and a week later discovered all the hair on my right
    arm was growing back. No burns or blisters, just hair damage.
    Pretty lucky I was. And oh, by the way, that silly panel I
    removed directs all the gas to a vent, so this kind of stuff 
    doesn't happen. sigh.
    
    Jodi- 

>>Really.  Are you seeing self-cleaning or continuous-cleaning?  The latter is
>>what I see everywhere.

I got a Caloric self-cleaning gas (propane) stove a couple of years ago
(at Highland in Nashua).  It even has the broiler in the oven and not
below which is uncommon in alot of gas stoves.  Cleaning cycle works great
too.  It takes about 3 hours,  heats up the whole kitchen,  but the oven
always gets clean.  The only thing I don't like is that the supposedly
"non-smoking" broiler rarely ever doesn't activate the smoke detector. The
Caloric rep who happenned to be a Highland the day I was shopping made a
particular point that the broiler did not create smoke.

Garry

    re: .3
    
    An electric oven is much quicker, holds the temperature much more
    evenly, and has the broiler at the top so the bottom can be used for
    storage. The cleaning feature is much more powerful on electric.
    
    The gas burners for the top because of better control when using a Wok
    - especially if one top burner is 'industrial' meaning it has a double
    row of orfices.
    
    All one unit because I'm cheap and don't want to redo our kitchen

    I put this in the STOVES notesfile about 3 weeks ago w/out any success.
    Note 107 didn't apply to this problem.  Does anyone have any
    suggestions for the following?
    
    thanks
    
    
               <<< PORI::CLUS$ROOT:[NOTES$SERVER]STOVES.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< MOTHER NATURE'S WARMTH >-
================================================================================
Note 259.12                       Enamel finish                         12 of 12
LANDO::OBRIEN "Give it a TRI"                        12 lines  16-DEC-1993 17:48
                                -< Enamel Care >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi
    
    I have a Vermont Castings Encore Enamel stove and the enamel finish is
    starting to get hairline fractures/bubbling type blemishes.  Is there
    some way to:
    		a) fix these?
    		b) prevent more from starting?
    
    
    Thank you for your suggestions.
    
    -John O'Brien
    
      

    Tried calling Vermont Castings? They used to have a customer service
    department that was pretty good.

    (Personally, I've avoided enamel stoves because I simply *assumed* that
    the finish would craze after a while.)

	Well I searched on Hood and then on Range but didn't find an
	appropriate topic for this question.

	What would be considered the minimum clearance from the cooking
	surface (electric stove) to the bottom of the range hood?

	I was originally going to put it in with a 25 inch clearance,
	but would now prefer only 20 inches so that I can get a taller
	wall unit, and so that the bottom shelf of the cabinat will
	be easier to reach.

	Thanks!  Jeff

Don't do it.  You'll regret it the first time you try to cook with a tall
pot, such as a stock pot.

We regret having left our cooktop at the same height (37") as the rest of
the counter.  We should have lowered the cooktop at least four inches.  With
a tall pot on the cooktop, the hood interferes with seeing in and stirring.

				Steve

I agree with Steve. 20" of clearance is simply not enough. Check it out for
yourself by constructing a cardboard "shelf" supported 20" above something
at the height of your cooktop. See how easy it is to deal with something
on a back burner underneath that.

-Jack

    Hi,

    I have a similar problem to -.1.  I'm installing a range hood into an
    existing kitchen where the old range hood was non(self)-venting, and 
    I'd like to vent it to the outside.  I'd like to keep the cabinet above
    the hood useable, so I need to use the rectangular vent that comes out
    of the back of the range hood.  The trouble is, there's a stud in the
    way, so I'd like to find a hood with the back vent off-center.  Any
    ideas?  Thanks,

				Peter

    Has anyone had any luck using any cleaner to remove baked on food
    from a Porcelain cook top ? This has just has built up over time.
    I'd like to try and clean it without using an abrasive, and also
    without hurting the stove top porcelain.
    

    Try spraying on a good coating of WINDEX degreaser spray.  This is
    new window/surface cleanner.  Leave it on for a good length of time
    and then take a damp sponge to the surface.  You might want to repeat
    the steps until you are satisfied.  My mommy used to tell us to wipe
    up right after you use the stove but these lessons really don't stick
    all the time.  

    justme....jacqui

Soak it for a while and try to get it off ... then there is a Corning special
cleaner for Corning worktops and pots and pans ... the stuff is expensive, but
it does a good job of restoring the appearance.

Stuart

Use the same stuff you use to clean baked-on food in the oven...oven cleaner
(like Easyoff).

-Mike

    
    thanks for all the replies :-)
    
    We had a can of easyoff, and tried it as mentioned in .3
    
    worked like a champ ! I had to re-apply it about 4 times, each time it 
    took off more and more, I left the final application over night. This
    morning it all just wiped off, and now the whole top sparkles.
    
    
    Thanks for all the help.
    
    

I'm interested in people's opinions and experience with kitchen islands
containing stoves/ranges.

My wife and I would rather *NOT* have a stove in the island, as we figure
it will afford four (vs. one) directions from which one can get burned.
However, lack of an otherwise good layout is tempting us to reconsider.

Also, for those that DO have such an island, what are it's dimensions,
and/or, what do you feel are good dimensions for such an island?

					Thanks in advance,
					  Dan S.

p.s.  I didn't find any existing note specifically on this topic, after
searching for topics containing island, kitchen, stove, or range.

Dan,

We put our gas cooktop in a center island.  The island also has seating/eating
area.  We had the same concerns.

Seven years and 3 pre-schoolers later, it hasn't been a problem.  In fact I
wouldn't do it any other way!

						Mark

RE: .1

Mark,

What are the dimensions/layout of your island?

Did you go with a down-draft range?  If not, what did you do about venting?

And did you go with separate wall oven units, or is the oven also in the
island?

We don't have young children... one in middle school and one in high school.
However, all flat surfaces in our home have an affinity for collecting stuff,
and I can well imagine stuff piled on top of the range.

						Thanks!
						  Dan S.

RE: .1

Also, WHY wouldn't you do it any other way?  I'd like to understand what
you've found so great about an island.

						Thanks again,
						  Dan S.

    Re: .0
    
    I don't have an island -- not nearly enough room -- but I've read just
    about every kitchen design/remodeling magazine to hit the racks in the
    last two years.  There's one called something like Kitchen & Bath
    Planning Guide that gives very good recommendations about measurements. 
    You will definitely need extra width for a down-draft range.  If you
    have room, I would recommend putting a raised foot-deep counter behind
    the stove.  You could even have raised counters on three sides for more
    of a barrier.  Optionally, if you don't have much more than two feet of
    depth to work with, you could have a 42-48" half wall around the island
    as a kind of fence.  (Also serves to hide small cooking messes.)

    I've cooked in several kitchens with the cooktop in either an island or
    on a peninsula.. didn't care for any of them. 
    
    Aesthetically, I like them, but it's hard to make them useful without
    taking up a LOT of space (e.g. you can't use the opposite side as an
    eating space with stools unless you add a good 20 inches of depth; any
    smaller and it's not really usable .. even 20" is uncomfortable if
    there is cooking going on while you're trying to sit there and yap;
    also, without a couple of feet of prep space on either side of the
    cooktop, "pot management" can get difficult..)
    
    I have to echo .3; what's driving you toward a cooktop in an island?
    
    ...tom

Thanks for the feedback so far...

RE: .5

>     I have to echo .3; what's driving you toward a cooktop in an island?

You're actually echoing me (the author of .0 as well as .3), wondering
why .1 loved an island so much.

What's prompting me/us to consider an island is lack of sufficient wall
space to have both our refrigerator and range on it.  At this point in
time we're still in favor of NOT cooking (or washing) on the island.  We
have also come to believe that an island range would be a more expensive
arrangement, given a presumed need for down-draft range, separate oven,
etc.

BUT... this doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing more opinions,
both for and against!

					Thanks again,
					  Dan S.

    When we laid out our kitchen, the design had counters and cabinets
    on all sides, as such:
    
    	|--------|__
    
    	|        P   <-Peninsula
    	|-SSDW---P
    
    We did away with the peninsula, put a veggie sink into the counter
    on the back wall and thought seriously about an island with a cooktop.
    The book I read recommends 42" around the island as a minimum and we
    had to be careful to get 36" but we went for the island and cooktop
    which is vented through the floor.  A Jennair needs a 6" duct, btw.
    
    36" is tight for two people or even one busy person if they are at all
    broad of beam but we don't find it bad.
    
    A warning though is that this setup is much more expensive.  You need
    an oven somewhere so it ends up being a builtin, which generally costs
    more than a simple stove anyway, as did the cooktop, then the cabinet
    for the builtin oven though simple to construct is not cheap to buy.
    You're easily looking at a project that can get to $4k in the blink
    of an eye.  When you figure that the problems can all be solved with
    a $500 stove, you have to decide how important everything is.
    
    -- I installed and vented the cooktop and built the cab for the ovens
    (yes, double) and would put our expenses at $2700.
    
    ed

    
    A possible alternative for the oven that is often overlooked is the 
    under-the-counter built-in. There aren't many out there that are 
    specifically designed to be under the counter... but we were able to
    locate a couple. 
    
    In our case we wanted the cooktop over the oven... but we didn't want
    a range... AND we wanted the leading edge of the counter to flow 
    uninterrupted. 
    
    								- Mac

    My kitchen-still-under-contruction features a 9' x 4' island with a
    range And a Jenn-air 2 burner units with downdraft.  It also has a
    small prep sink at the very end.  We went with a large island rather
    than a U shaped plan for traffic flow reasons.  We also suffer from not
    enough wall space.
    
    The Jennair downdraft unit will downdraft the range top as well as the
    Jennair so we got away without any overhead venting.  And, it gives me
    my 6 burners, which was a requirement!
    
    Dana  

    Re: .6
    
    Perhaps you could describe what kind of space you have to work with.

We're building a house, and the existing plans have an L-shaped arrangement
that's 11'10" by 8'6".  Roughly:


	+---sink---d/w---
	|
	range
	|	  island
	refrig

	[door]

The left is to the garage; the back to the back yard.

We'll probably move the door down, eliminating the closet/cabinets that
were there, to give us more than 8'6" for the range and refrigerator.

						Thanks,
						  Dan S.

    a couple of cost items I forgot to mention for the island: it needs a
    GFCI electrical outlet (at least one, maybe two if it's big enough)
    PLUS a circuit for the cooktop.  In my case the electrician had to do
    both so they were Extra$.  Then, the circuit for the Jennair double oven
    was bigger than your standard range circuit so that was Extra$.
    
    Just something to con$ider.
    
    ed

    Unless you have windows in the way, I'd suggest (moving from bottom
    left to top right):  18" cabinet, 30" range, 18" cabinet, 36" corner
    cabinet (lazy Susan or easy reach), 36" sink cabinet, 24" dishwasher,
    30" refrigerator.  That leaves the island as workspace and storage. 
    Alternately, I'd put the sink in the island (with a raised counter
    or wall behind it) with the dishwasher directly across.

Dan,

We like it because the layout has worked for us.  Our island has become
what we had hoped it to be, i.e. the gathering point for activity in
the kitchen.

Admittedly, we have a large kitchen...that helps.  We also have a kitchen
with limited wall space so gaining enough countertop/cabinets was a priority.
The layout, via crude, not-to-scale drawing is below.

                window               +-door to deck-+
	     (triple casement)	    |	   (6')     |
    +-------------------------------+               +
    |              sink		    |	 breakfast  | open
    |	+---------------------------+     area      | step
    |   |                                           | down 
    |   |(sto  +------------+                       |  to
    |---| ve)  |  cooktop   |                       | family 
    frig|      |  	    |                       |  room
    |   |       \          /                        +
    |---|        ----------                         |stairway up
                       		                    | 
                       +---------+                  | 
hallway to             |cab/desk |                  +
garage ----+ doorway   +---------+ doorway to foyer |
           | to dining |         |       (6')       |
		room   |         |                  |
		(6')

>What are the dimensions/layout of your island?

	I can not recall exact measurements (you are welcome to come
	by and see if you are in the Bolton MA area...or if you need
	them I can measure)

	The island is approximately 3x7', about 3' between island
	and sink, about 3'between island and desk, and about 3.5'
	between island and frig.  The "bottom" (in the drawing)
	of the island countertop overhangs by about 20", with
	stools underneath.   It rests on 3 cabinets, a double
	door in the middle and single ones either side with drawers
	on top.  So there are 4 cabinet doors on the sink side of the
	island.   All pots, pans, and cooking/baking tools go in
	these cabinets and drawers.  There is also an electrical
	outlet on the side near the frig.

	It is very nice to be able to pivot between sink and cooktop.
	We also find both in normal, everyday activities and during
	parties that kids/people naturally sit at the island to 
	converse with the cooks while dinner is being prepared.
	The kids eat most of their meals and snacks at the island.

	
Did you go with a down-draft range?  If not, what did you do about venting?

	We have a gas Jenn-aire cooktop (I would not recommend.  Difficult
	to keep clean) which vents down through the cellar to the
	outside.

>And did you go with separate wall oven units, or is the oven also in the
>island?

	We debated a wall oven(s).  But Lyn loves to bake and uses a LOT of
	counterspace when doing so.  She didn't want to lose the counter
	space.  So, as an earlier note suggested, we installed an undercounter
	model.  It is installed under the counter beside the frig. Think
	of it as you would a dishwasher (which is to the right of the sink).

	EVERY kitchen designer tried to talk us out of doing this.  They
	all thought it would be too low, too unusual, etc.  However it
	has worked out wonderfully.  Once installed, it is no different in
	height or use than a one-piece stove/cooktop range.  We didn't want
	to put it in the island because having the door open up toward the
	sink would have been too congested.

>We don't have young children... one in middle school and one in high school.
>However, all flat surfaces in our home have an affinity for collecting stuff,
>and I can well imagine stuff piled on top of the range.

	Ditto.  Having the cooktop on the island keeps it from becoming a
	collection point for papers, piles, etc.  Now about the desk area...

	Overall, the kitchen is one area of the house that I would not
	do any other way.  We are VERY happy with how it works.
	Hope this helps.
							Mark

RE: .11, .13

I neglected to mention what was to the right of our layout... an eating
area/nook, much like Mark has shown in .14.  Otherwise we WOULD have gone
with the refrigerator on the back wall, to the right of the sink.  Having
the refrigerator where you suggest would, I fear, have a negative impact
on the feel/view of the kitchen/eating area.

RE: others...

We're still tending towards a plain island.

One woman I know explained that what SHE likes about it is that she can
face people, rather than a wall, while she's cooking.

Thanks for the feedback to date!
						--Dan S.

    Dan,
    
    The reason you mentioned - facing people instead of a wall while
    cooking, is one of the major reasons we're going with the island with
    cooktop design.  I do a *lot* of cooking for entertaining and I do a
    lot of stovetop work.  Being exiled from the guests while I execute
    these culinary works of art was just no fun any more (;^).  
    
    Of course, while it's under construction, I get to execute my culinary
    works of art in the cellar.......
    
    Dana

    Re: .15
    
    >Having the refrigerator where you suggest would, I fear, have a
    >negative impact on the feel/view of the kitchen/eating area.
    
    You can get a semi-built-in look by have a cabinetry panel/box around
    the refrigerator.  It would probably be cheaper to make a 30" wide/deep 
    wall and run it up to the ceiling; hang a clock or a picture to make it 
    look even nicer.

       	Perhaps I was dreaming at the time, but I could have sworn that I
    saw a combination gas/electric stove. What I was looking for was a gas
    oven and 2 of the 4 burners to be gas, while the other two are
    electric.

    	The reason being is that it makes no difference to my wife in 
    baking, broiling, or boiling if it is gas or electric, but she prefers 
    the control and heat dispersion of an electric burner for certain 
    things, like making omlets, for example. I like the gas because it
    can be used if power goes out and it's cheaper to operate than
    electric.
    
    	Does such a beast exist, or was it a figment of my imagination ?
    If it does exist, any leads or ballpark costs would be appreciated.
    I guess if one doesn't exist I could just get a gas stove and install
    an electric stove top somewhere ?
    
    	Ray

I have seen combinations of electric oven and gas cooktop, but have never seen
a mixed gas/electric cooktop.  You could, I suppose, have a regular gas
cooktop and separate electric (halogen, for example) burners installed in
a counter.

				Steve

Franke makes a cooktop with two gas burners and two electric ones.

	Paul

re: .2

> Franke makes a cooktop with two gas burners and two electric ones.

But why would you *want* any electric burners (I know, they aren't really
burners)?  Electric oven, yes, but electric "stove-top units" are lousy
if you're a serious cook.

-Hal

    They boil water fast.
    
    		Steve

>>    the control and heat dispersion of an electric burner 

Huh???  If the burner is halogen, maybe.  If it's a radiant coil burner, most of
the control comes from taking the pan off the burner entirely while it cools. 
As for heat dispersion, that's the job of the pan.

"Common wisdom" (a potential oxymoron) is that the "right" combination
is an electric oven and a gas cooktop.
Electric ovens reputedly heat more evenly and are potentially more 
economical and comfortable to work with because they don't have to be vented
(the heat stays in the oven).
Gas cooktops have quicker heat level controls and can (in some/most cases)
be hotter than electric.

Not to argue the case one way or the other, but I think this 
is the combination you are more likely to find.

- tom]

	The one thing I miss myself with an electric oven (vs. gas) is
	that there were several recipies where you would bake cookies
	overnight in the oven off the heat generated only by the pilot ....

    I am looking at the Jenn Aire combo stove, gas cooktop, electric
    stove.  The dealer said that only some types of electric cooktops boil
    water faster than gas.  That is the electric coil otherwise the other
    types of electric cooktops are about the same or slightly better than
    gas.

re .8
I have the Jennaire combo myself.  Love it!  The electric oven is convection,
and has very low settings.  I've used it to dry vegetables.

re .7
The last gas oven I had did not have a pilot.  I used an electric starter spark
and a top broiler.  It also had a self clean cycle.

    	Having cooked a few omlets myself, I find it easier to use a fairly
    inexpensive teflon coated pan. I have more expensive stainless steel
    ones designed to better disperse the heat, but after a cheeze omlet or
    two, I have to clean it and start from scratch. 
    
    	With teflon pans, I can make omlets all day in the same pan and they 
    never stick. I don't suspect the stainless would be any different whether 
    I used it with electric or gas.
    
    	With electric coils, the heat is dispersed to the whole bottom of
    the pan (even a cheap pan). With gas, the flame is to such a small area
    you have to rely on the pan alone to disperse it. Since my preference
    for omlets is to use teflon, electric seems to be the way to go. Perhaps 
    someone has found a good teflon pan that lasts more than a few years 
    and disperses heat well ?
    
    	I hadn't thought about the vent required for a gas oven before.
    That's a good point, because the hassle involved to install it is likely
    not worth whatever cost savings I may see between gas and electric.
    
    	Ray

   To continue somewhat on this rathole...
   
   While I do prefer gas for stove-top cooking, I have been successfully
   using electric burners with a well seasoned cast iron skillet for
   years to make omlets and other possibly sticky stuff.  Cast iron is,
   IMO, just about as good as teflon once you get it broken in properly.
   
   fwiw,
   
   - Tom

    
.10>      I hadn't thought about the vent required for a gas oven before.
.10>  That's a good point, because the hassle involved to install it is likely
.10>  not worth whatever cost savings I may see between gas and electric.
    
    A vent, or a venting hood, is not required with a gas stove or oven. A
    gas oven must have a vent to a space outside the *unit* (built into the
    uniy,usually near a burner of through the backsplash), but not outside
    the *house*.
    

    re:12
    
    	Now you would have to go and re-complicate things again wouldn't
    you ;-) I take it the combustion is clean/complete enough so as not to 
    require a vent to the outside ?
    
    	Ray

>     A vent, or a venting hood, is not required with a gas stove or oven. A
>     gas oven must have a vent to a space outside the *unit* (built into the
>     uniy,usually near a burner of through the backsplash), but not outside
>     the *house*.

	Even my electric oven has one of these, the vent is through the
	rear right burner.  I sometimes use it to melt butter/margerine
	or to dry some pans I've just watched if I happen to have the
	oven going at the same time.

	Then again my stove is harvest gold in color so you can probably
	guess it's age ....

    	I went back and re-read .6, which is what made me think a gas oven
    needed to be vented. I too have an electric with the vent in the right
    rear burner. Now that I think of it, why is that little bugger there.
    Seems it would be more effecient if it wasn't. Is it for safety reasons
    (i.e. thermostat goes bad and unit stays on) ?
    
    	Getting back to my base note, it sounds like I'd have to go with a
    seperate oven/stove-top to get the combination I was looking for.
    Again, a gas oven may have an advantage during a power outage if it
    didn't require the electricity to re-light the burner each time.
    
    	Because of where I live (Auburn, NH) long outages are a very real
    possibility. It is the smallest town in the greater Manchester area, so
    we are the last to get serviced. I already have an electric generator,
    but it is not sized to run an electric oven/stove.
    
    	Ray

    
.15>        I went back and re-read .6, which is what made me think a gas oven
.15>    needed to be vented. I too have an electric with the vent in the right
.15>    rear burner. Now that I think of it, why is that little bugger there.
.15>    Seems it would be more effecient if it wasn't. Is it for safety reasons
.15>    (i.e. thermostat goes bad and unit stays on) ?
    
    Ah, the power of Notes! See that, I've never owned an electric oven,
    always thought the in-unit vents were for gas only, because you need to
    move quite a bit of air to support combustion.
    
    Given this new information, if I had to guess at the real need for the
    vent, I'd say it's basically the same reason you need to have some kind
    of vent in a clothes dryer -- you generally want the oven to bake, not
    steam. (Maybe you can get away with a smaller vent in an electric
    oven.)
    

re .10    	

>    Having cooked a few omlets myself, I find it easier to use a fairly
>    inexpensive teflon coated pan. I have more expensive stainless steel
>    ones designed to better disperse the heat, but after a cheeze omlet or
>    two, I have to clean it and start from scratch. 
 
I have a cast aluminum core, stainless clad, nonstick coated skillet that takes
care of nonstick and heat dispersion all at once.  I find cheap pans are too
expensive, since they have to be replaced so often.

>    ... With gas, the flame is to such a small area
>    you have to rely on the pan alone to disperse it. 

Depends on the kind of stove you have.  There are all kinds of flame patterns. 
Some prfessional stoves actually have 2 sets of jets 1 for small pans, with a
separate outer ring for large pans.


>    I hadn't thought about the vent required for a gas oven before.

No vent necessary.  However, the Jennaire comes with a buit in down draft
exhaust.

re: .7
�	The one thing I miss myself with an electric oven (vs. gas) is
�	that there were several recipies where you would bake cookies
�	overnight in the oven off the heat generated only by the pilot ....

I used to make yogurt in our electric oven by pre-warming, then leaving the
appliance light on to keep it warm.

    Unless you are buying a genuine professional stove
    (not one of the "professional for home use" ones)
    a *good* electric stove is as good as gas.  
    
    You have better control at low temperatures.
    
    If you don't have natural gas service, electric is
    cheaper.
    
    You do have to take your pan off the burner to get
    it off the heat (as opposed to killing the flame).
    
    You can't "see" the temperature of the burner as easily.
    
    The reason most cooks prefer gas is that that is what
    they learned on, and the professional ones have
    higher btu ratings than home stoves.
    
    I'm a pretty serious cook, and a pretty good one if
    I do say so myself. Learning to use the electric stove
    was much cheaper, and just as satisfactory, as every
    home stove I have ever seen or used (I tried out my
    friend's stoves when I was thinking about replacing
    the one I have.)
    
    "The Design of Everyday Things" has a good description
    of how electic stoves work. 
    

re: .19
    
>    You have better control at low temperatures.

That's the only advantage i'd give electric, it's easier to get a
very low simmer.  An inexpensive heat diffuser largely mitigates the
difference, though.

>    The reason most cooks prefer gas is that that is what
>    they learned on, and the professional ones have
>    higher btu ratings than home stoves.
    
I learned on electric stoves, and I prefer gas. 

>    I'm a pretty serious cook, and a pretty good one if
>    I do say so myself. Learning to use the electric stove
>    was much cheaper, and just as satisfactory, as every
>    home stove I have ever seen or used (I tried out my
>    friend's stoves when I was thinking about replacing
>    the one I have.)
    
Hey, any reasonably good cook should be able to adjust to either
electric or gas.  I just find gas much easier.  I'm really curious,
though, about why you fell that electric is so much cheaper.  That's
certainly not the case where *I* live.  Where *do* you live?

-Hal

    .19, .20:
    
    The ::REAL_ESTATE and ::CLASSIFIED_ADS rental postings suggest that
    there's more than a few DECcies living in the city once pegged as
    having the highest residential electric rates in the continental U.S.
    (if memory serves).
    
    Dick

    You're not supposed to use a gas stove when there's no electricity due
    to the fact that the thermostat runs off of electricity. Without a 
    thermostat your gas jets in the oven will not turn off. 
    I have a gas stove of which the top burners are used if the electricity
    is off - I always have plenty of matches.
    
    Also remember besides the thermostat, the electric ignitors won't
    work. So you would have to light the oven by hand unless you plan on
    getting a stove with pilots (I don't know if they're available anymore
    - I guess they still are).
    	Cindy

    It's real hard to get an electric stove burner hot enough to use a
    normal wok to cook anything that is supposed to be seared.  Eve most
    normal gas burners can't manage it - I just avoid recipes that aren't
    going to work right on my gas stove, but if I were real serious about
    this I would get a special wok burner (where would I put THAT?  I
    dunno, one of the reasons I don't have one).  I learned to cook on an
    electric stove, too, but I like gas a lot better, and it is a good deal
    cheaper (here).
    
    /Charlotte

Most gas ovens I am familiar with use a mechanical sensor for the thermostat.
Many of the older ones don't even have a power cord.  Modern gas ovens probably
do use electronic thermostats.

				Steve

Re: .2

Just to correct my previous note for future readers...

the combination gas/electric cooktop is made by Gaggenau, not Franke.

	Paul

Some of these have already been mentioned, but here goes:


1) You have to leave the pan in contact with the element to get efficient heat
transfer. If you like to toss items in a pan, you have to put it back down on the
element on a regular basis. If your pan is a bit unbalanced, the heat transfer is
screwed up. This also means only flat-bottomed pans work (they do make
flat-bottomed woks, though.)

2) Food/grease splatters that get on the elements burn and make smoke when
they're next turned on.

3) It's hard to calculate the level of heat, as it depends on such variables as
the weight of the pan and contents, the quality of the contact, (see 1) and the
size of the pan. This is maddening. 

4) No visual feedback so it's easy to turn on the wrong burner, with the
concomitant disaster. Also, there's no way to tell if it's behaving correctly.
Usually I find the burners heat unequally and it's a pain to check it out. I
suspect the heat transfer properties of the elements change with years of use.

5) Delayed response, though this has gotten much better in recent years with the
low-mass elements.

6) Dependence on burner size; you can't put a smaller pan on a larger burner.
Vice-versa is not good for heat distribution. This means you are limited to two
large pans and two small ones, with some exceptions (some cooktops have
variable-size elements on *one* of the burners.)

7) Oversize pots will burn out your wiring. Trust me on this one.

8) They don't work during power failures. Not a big deal until you're in the
middle of cooking dinner and it goes.

9) If the wiring goes (see 7) you can kill yourself, though the chances are
acceptably minuscule with modern wiring done correctly.

10) More trouble to clean: you have to unplug the element to remove the catch pan.

John

    Oversize pots have *never* burned out my wiring (nor my stove's wiring,
    nor my house's wiring).
    
    ...tom

>    Oversize pots have *never* burned out my wiring....

I have seen the effect of large pots returning heat to the top surface
of a range when used for extended periods.
Examples are cooking lobsters in a large pot, or when my wife has done
canning, which requires long sessions of boiling water in a very wide pot.

The stove surface gets very hot well away from the burner.
It can scorch, and presumably the heat being forced down can damage
stuff below the stove, especially in countertop stoves.

So I can conceive of wiring damage, though I have not observed that directly.

- tom]

    We're planning on installing a new stove-top.  Any recommendations?
    I notice that there is a wide range of prices.
    
    pros/cons for make/model?
    
    thank you
    
    John

    well, it depends on what you want to do and how much you want to
    spend.. as well as your preferred fuel, available space, desired
    configuration, etc..
    
    Are you looking for Electric or gas? if electric, do you have a
    preference for element type (and do you want more than one type)
    
    Do you want interchangeable burners/grills/etc?
    
    are you looking for a standard 30" format, or a larger format?
    
    downdraft or updraft venting?
    
    where do you prefer to have the controls? (side, front, or euro-style)
    
    etc etc..
    
    ...tom
    
    

By "stovetop" do you mean what is commonly referred to as a "cooktop"?  That is,
no oven, just burners, etc.?  We went through this exercise five years ago.
My first piece of advice is to check the configuration of the burners - size,
location and proximity.  How many large pans can you use at once?  Many
cooktops have the burners too close together, reducing the usefulness.  How
obvious are the controls - which control goes with which burner?  We found
several that were very confusing (but artistic.)  What is the range of
heating ability?  You'll want big and little burners.  Black glass looks great,
but shows every grease spatter.  Also consider on gas models how high the 
burner grates are, and how that will affect the available height between the
grate and the overhead hood.

We first went with a Thermador gas cooktop.  Looked great, but it rapidly
developed a problem where the burners would not light.  After three repair
attempts (including swapping the control module with a floor model, since
Thermador couldn't provide a replacement), we returned it and bought a
Sterling (also sold as GE Monogram).  Very nice and has proven reliable.

We also looked at KitchenAid, Dacor, and a couple of others.  We liked the 
KitchenAid and Dacor, but the burners were too close together to be useful.

					Steve

> We're planning on installing a new stove-top.  Any recommendations?
> I notice that there is a wide range of prices.
> pros/cons for make/model?

	You really want the Consumers conference, not the Home-*WORK*
	conference for this.  The following is a listing of stove topics
	in the Consumers conference:

   290  STAR::NISHIMOTO      27-JUN-1986    13  Gas Kitchen Stove
   364  MRMFG3::A_PEIRANO    28-AUG-1986     7  Sources for stoves or cabinets?
   514  MRED::CURELOP         5-DEC-1986    11  electric stoves
   731  BYRD::WONG            1-JUN-1987     1  Looking for a new electric stove...
  1497  DELNI::GOLDBERG      19-MAY-1989     4  Jenn_Aire Stove Repairs
  1546  DEC103::KLIMASEWSKI   2-AUG-1989     4  What is the best? [stove]
  1827  PARITY::MALISZEWSKI  14-SEP-1990     7  STOVE TOP GRILL
  1971  TARKIN::VAILLANCOURT  7-MAY-1991     6  Burner replacement on electric stove
  2016  DNEAST::RIPLEY_GORDO  7-AUG-1991     1   Whirlpool glass top stove
  2134  NQOPS::CHIN          27-FEB-1992    17  Stove caught on fire....
  2350  CNTROL::KING          9-JUN-1993     2  KitchenAid Ceramic top electric stove

    Thanks Tom/Steve/Jeff,
    
    Right... what I am looking for:
    
    Electric(although I wish we DID have a gas line supply so we could get
    a gas cooktop).
    
    No need for grill-top.
    
    DURABILITY/Reliability!
    
    4 burners would be sufficient.
    
    Controls on top(not at the controls of the small people in our family).
    
    And, looking for standard size... we currently have a hood exhaust
    above the old one,... so no need for venting.
    
    Thanks for the advice and pointers.
    
    -John