Conference 7.286::home_work

    Don't bother.  Replace the blocks, remove the jacks, and work fast.
    
    					Steve

    I'm planning on using 4x4's for jacks and wedging them up to the
    correct height. (only about 2-3 inches).  Problem is that this the
    front of the house, and there are a total of 9 columns that have
    to be knocked out and reset.  I'm starting to think that the way
    to go is to just do it, but I'm also REAL worried about it since
    the work is so obvious.  What do you know about the permit process??
    
    jc
    

    
    	You didn't give your name or address when you called, did you?
    	Once they know that you called and then ignored them, you may
    	have trouble (even if you are ultimately right!)
    
    	You do not need a permit to repair existing structures.  If
    	you intent to alter its appearance significantly (ie enclose
    	open porches) then you should have them.  No one will bother
    	you, and the neighborhood should be thankful that you are
    	improving its appearance.
    
    
    	Joe O.
    

    Joe,
    
    
    I gave the girl I talked to my name and town, but she barely heard
    me.  Also, the Boston office is staffed with primarly '9-5' help,
    unless I signed something or caused a big stink they tend to forget
    who they talked to a minute ago.  Some I'm not worried about that.
    If an inspector drove by and cited me for a violation he wouldn't
    be doing it because someone told him to check 'Covino's house' in
    Jamaica Plain.  But inspectors have been known to drive by!
    
    I have a question for you.  Are you saying I don't need a permit
    in Boston to repair existing structures, or in the towns/cities
    that you are familiar with?  I am under the impression that different
    towns may have different ordinances.  By the way - I honestly have
    no intention of altering anything, it really is appearance only.
    
    thanks
    
    jc
    

I've done a variety of modifications and the approach I take is to just go ahead
and do it (as Grace Hopper says, "it's easier to apologize than ask 
permission").  If someone were to confront you over it, you could always say 
that you didn't realize you needed a permit.  However, if it came to that you'd
then probably have to follow through and get the dumb permit.

The times I've gotten permits were for structural changes or electrical work.  I
figure if my house falls/burns I want to get my insurance company to at least
pay off!

-mark

    
    Why I don't get building permits (unless I get caught) Vol I
    							
    						by Ralph Palmer
    
    	God, how I hate the inspectors in my town!  They are a bunch
    of fat ass old men who couldn't make it as plumbers, builders and
    electricians so they make money picking on everyone else.  If you
    use one of their favorite contractors, no problem, they don't even
    go to the site!  
    	I avoid permits like the plague.  It is not that I'm trying
    to hide sub standard work it is just that I don't want to have to
    sit around for days waiting for them to come out.  I had to get
    a permit to have my service upped to 100 amps.  The inspector made
    an appointment for 11 am for the final inspection.  At 1 pm I called
    his highness and he informed me that he was too busy to come out.
    When he did finally come out he wouldn't sign off because the subpanel
    door was *TOO HARD TO OPEN*.  The electrician came out and worked
    on the door so now it swings freely.  All I have got to do is take
    another (couple of) days off.  I've been yanked around by the plumbing
    and building inspector also.
    	What is the general feeling about permits in Home_works land?
    Some jobs (like additions) need permits because they are visible
    from the street.  Do you call and see if the job requires a permit
    or do you just go ahead and do it? 
                                
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(sorry for the soapbox type note, I'm a little hot under the
    	 collar today)

    Although we built our house 11 yrs ago, I can understand the fire
    in your heart. The inspectors were prompt, but the plumbing inspector
    and plumbing contractor went round and round.
    
    It seems the whole mess started about the pressure relief valve on
    my HW tank. The plumber didn't put one on. The well tank has a pressure
    relief device which releases before the HW tank could. BTW: The
    well tank pressure is also lower that the HW relief valve. The
    inspector then stated "I don't care if it is needed in this case
    or not. The code says and it will be there or else I won't sign." 
    
    This then prompted the inspector to examine all plumbing with a
    fine tooth comb.
    
    As for the electrical inspector, what a joke. They both laughed
    and joked, while the inspector showed he knew how to use a polarity
    checker.
    
    Being in town for several years, I know it would do no good to inform
    the town management, as the inspectors are usually appointed by
    the town. The only way to change the inspectors is to change the
    management of the town.
    
    I built a storage shed in the side yard. Two years later it showed
    up on my tax bill. The law is usually very clear in this case. No
    permit, the fine is double the permit fee. Guess what? NO FINE!
    
    danas

    I agree with you Ralph, they are a pain in the butt. My next door
    ex-neighbor had his house built by one of the "favored" builders in
    town and no problems. Of course the inspector didn't think there
    was a need to inspect this house as it was built by a local yocal.
    When the new neighbor moved in he called the inspector to ask how
    the house passed inspection with a drain pipe hanging below a finished
    garage ceiling? The reply was we missed it BUT! you have to make
    it right.
    
    Last spring I built a large addition(highly visible) and called
    the inspector for each milestone. This winter thru spring I'm
    finishing of my workshop and cellar...of course you know I'm
    going to call the inspector :^)
    
    Incidentally the day after I got approval for the "rough framing"
    the *@@#$! tax assessor showed up.
    
    canuck "cut twice still too short"
    

    One justification for having certain inspections done might be 
    for insurance purposes. I asked my friendly on-the-level 
    insurance man about the consequences of such practices and he 
    inform me that if I had an insurance claim resulting from work 
    that was not inspected and the insurance company found out, that 
    they would not be obligated to pay out my claim (eg: house fire 
    due to an electrical short).  This monetary loss could be quite
    significant and might make some people think twice. But then again,
    like permits/inspections/tax assessors....you gotta get caught first.
    
    /Glenn
    

I've gone both routes.  When I do something that involves an inspector 
(such as building an addition or installing a wood stove), I call him up 
first and humble myself.  Tell him exactly what I want to do and what to 
look out for.  Now he's on my side and things usually go fairly well.  

The only other inspector I had to deal with was an electrical one and he 
never even look at the breaker box!

just out of curiosity, if someone builds something without getting it 
inspected and the house caves in or burns down, how can anyone prove 
that it wasn't done by the previous owner?

-mark

     
     >.4   A friend of mine recently moved to Merrimack and discovered
    the fireplace in his new "previously owned" house had only half the
    flue constructed, this had been inspected and approved. The end
    result was the building inspector called in all parties to witness
    the construction(mason,previous owner,original building inspector).
    The previous owner and the mason had to make it right at their own
    expense or face legal action. The records are kept on file to keep
    track of who did what and when.
                             
    I dont know what would happen if the previous owner had moved far
    away say like Bogata,Columbia(sp?).
    
    canuck   "cut the dam thing on the line and found out the line had
              moved.

    Proving who was at fault is one thing, but I'm sure the issue of
    liability is clearly dictated in your Purchase and Sales agreement.
    
    Hmmm. ...think I'll take a glance at it this weekend. 
    
    /Glenn
    

    I just installed another circuit for an appliance.  I decided to
    play the game and took out a permit.  I spent time making sure I
    did the right thing.  Good idea, the inspector took 5 minutes to
    look at it and was only concerned with the polarity.  I had left
    the fuse out because it made sense that if there was an installation
    problem, then having it inspected after the house burnt down didn't
    make any sense.  I wanted the inspector to tell me the installation
    looked good and then I would put in the fuse.  He thought that was
    weird!
    
    /Chris

    
    	Guess what I woke up to yesterday morning?  I found the following
    posted on my door.
    
    		STOP WORK ORDER
                Town of Norwood
    		Building Department
    
    Per section 122 of the State Building Code you are hereby ordered
    to stop work immediately on this building........
    
    	Well I went down to the town hall and took out a permit.  I
    explained to the inspector that I really had not done anything yet
    and was *planning* on getting one later.  There was no problem,
    no fines and no ruffled feathers.  It seems that the inspector was
    checking out the house next door and noticed the pile of stuff in
    my back yard.
    	The main reason that I did not get a permit was that I could
    do my own plumbing.  Well my plumber came by and quoted me $250
    for sink and dishwasher installation.  The existing plumbing is
    a joke and the new sink is going to have to be vented.
    	Well, I got caught and it was no big deal.  I'd do it again
    to avoid the building department.
    					=Ralph=		

    Hey Ralph... are you sure the building inspector hasn't been reading
    this notes file ?!?!? 
    
    Charly :-)
    

    Well, it seems inspectors vary just like contractors:  some are
    a pain, others are reasonable, and some are just downright helpful
    and make the whole project a breeze.  If you live in Shrewsbury,
    you are in the latter catagory.  The building inspector allowed
    me to start construction (excavation, foundation, etc) on the addition
    BEFORE he issued the building because the delay was on his end.
    He even came over and did the inspection in advance of the permit.
    
    The electrical department didn't even charge for the permit.  The
    plumbing inspector is part time, so you usually get your inspection
    in the early morning or evening hours.
    
    Like I said, it varies a lot.
    
    

    The building inspector for Spencer and Oakham used to work for my
    wife.  He's a real reasonable guy.  If you ask him for advice he'll
    practically design your project for you, but if you do something
    stupid without a permit, he'll bust your chops from here to the
    Statehouse.
    
    -joet  

re .10:
   >     The electrical department didn't even charge for the permit.  The

    I hope he didn't.  I live in shrewsbury in a two-year old house
    and either the inspector was blind, or never showed up. 
    
    ...tek

	I agree that inspection is sometimes a joke; I guess it's
	the best scheme we have.

	I asked ours about the formula for area of attic vents.
	He wasn't sure there was a formula, and	he had to look it up.

	I asked him how my house with only 2 square feet of
	gable vent got past him.  He admitted that he never
	computes the area, he just checks to see that the
	attic is indeed vented.  He thought the idea of computing
	the area was a trifle outlandish.  Hurray for Cowhampshire;
	Taxachusetts isn't the only noodle-headed country.  (Ok, Ok,
	all you over-sensitive Taxachusettians, don't get all
	bent out of shape.  I'm one myself, though I won't admit it
	in public.)

	Incidentallly, in the '60s, in Wilmington, I had some wiring
	done by	the wiring inspector (figure that out).  I had to go
	around	the house correcting his poor workmanship: loose
	connections in outlet boxes.

    Anyone know how the inspectors in Pepperell, MA are?
    

    	Then there's just plain ole dishonesty!  A few years ago, I
    worked on the old Children's Museum in Jamaica Plains, Mass.  This
    was about a $500k renovation into condo's.  The building inspector
    was giving my boss, the general contractor, *one* *heckova* *bad*
    *time*.  Then he (insp.) came in toward the end of the week and said to
    him: "You know, you'n I'd get along a lot better if you'd leave
    about five hundred bucks in an envelope on that desk over there."
    
    	Yeah?  My boss (a good friend) just stared him down.  It don't
    pay to fool around with those kind.  Much later on, I was a
    subcontractor on a large job at Ft. Devons, Mass.  I had unknowingly
    paid my help less than the government declared price: The general
    contrator (*not* my friend) asked me to "adjust" my books!  Told
    him that he was welcome to retire to that religious place of eternal
    punishment...!
    
    	So the guy at the Inspector's office is not straight and plays
    every political trick he can on you... *YOU* do what's right and
    go by the correct procedure!  Don't hide your work, don't try to
    get away with anything!  Honesty is a lonely word, but it *always*
    pays in the end!!!  If I or my friend had taken either of those
    jerks up on their "request" one or both of use could be in jail
    right now!  No foolin'!
                
    							Don Arey
    
    p.s. being honest about that Ft. Devens deal cost me $2500.-!  But
    I don't lose any sleep over it!
    
    
    

    re inspectors in Pepperell, Ma:
    
    I've had many problems when I lived there.  The biggest was when
    I wanted to install a swimming pool.  The building inspector said
    "no problem", go ahead and the permit will catch up with you.
    One month later, after being reviewed by the conservation commission,
    wetland commission, planning board, then building inspector, I was
    
    told I would have to have an electrical permit BEFORE the building
    permit. You can't install the electrical outlit before you build
    the pool(above ground).  What they forgot to tell me was the electrical
    inspector's son was the 'normal' electrician for the work.  They
    made it clear that an electrican was the only one who could sign
    the permit and do the work.  So two weeks later (pool up-no permit)
    I finally get an electrican to signe the permit and do the work.
    Here's where it gets good.  The electrican I hired was the town's
    OLD electrical inspector.  Seems like he and the new inspector have
    problems getting along.  I had the work inspected 4 times, each
    time the electrical inspector found something new that he didn't
    like.  Each time they were nit-picks.
    I gave up, enjoyed the pool without permit process complete.
    
    ed
    
    
  

    I JUST GOT INTO THIS NOTE SO SORRY I AM A LITTLE LATE IN TELLING
    YOU ABOUT MY HORROR STORY.  MY EX PUT A DECK ON THE BACK OF MY
    HOME 14 YEARS AGO (NO PERMIT).  I PUT MY HOUSE UP FOR SALE AND WAS
    LUCKY TO SELL IT IN TIME TO PASS PAPERS ON A HOME IN LEOMINSTER.
    THREE DAY'S BEFORE PASSING ON THE MAYNARD HOME THE BANK CALLED AND
    INFORMED ME THAT I WAS OUT OF VARIENCE ON THE PLOT PLAN.  WHAT A
    NIGHTMARE, IT LASTED THIRTEEN WEEKS. PLANNING MEETINGS, ZONEING
    BOARDS AND SO ON.  THE PERMIT WOULD HAVE BEEN A HELL OF A LOT EASIER
    THAN THE BULL AND THE MONEY IT COST ME IN THE END.

    Read a interesting article in this mornings paper.
    
    Seems like Bob Villa ( Yes, from this Old House) is tied up in a
    little problem. Before the infamous show was born he added a Penthouse
    apartment to some building in the Back Bay. He did however, forget
    to get any building permit. Now some years go by and he sells the
    apartment and more time goes by and now the second owner gets a
    notice about the lack of building permit and please remove the whole
    penthouse and restore the roof to it's original appearance
    OR ELSE !!!
    
    The apartment is now worth between $225 K and $300 K. The owners
    have until March 22 to remove the problem. 
    
    Pasco
    

Just another case of why building departments get such a bad name.  The thing 
has been there for years, and all of a sudden they want it gone?  Without 
regard to whether it's built soundly or not?  Sheez, don't they have anything 
better to do?

I personally would be a lot happier if each and every building department went 
the way of the dinosaurs.

Paul

    RE: .-1
    
    I'm sure its not really the building department, but the people
    who want to conserve the original appearance of the buildings in
    the back bay.  (Back Bay Conservation society or something like
    that)  I read a while ago that someone had put up a satellite receiver
    on his roof and they made him take that down too.
    
    
    These people decide that they don't like something, look up to see
    if the proper permits were pulled and if not, report you to the
    building inspector.  The city has nothing else that it can do except
    to take action.  Their hands are tied.
    
    
    -bill

>    I'm sure its not really the building department, but the people
>    who want to conserve the original appearance of the buildings in
>    the back bay.  

Where were they x years ago when he built the thing?  He built an apartment 
several years ago, and apparently no one took any notice at the time or in the 
intervening years.  The apartment is now worth about a third of a million 
dollars, and because some yo-yo walking down the street doesn't like the look 
of it, some subsequent owner who most likely had no idea that the apartment was 
built without a permit has to tear it down?  Alright, perhaps the building 
department isn't totally at fault here.  But the fact remains that the building 
department is there for the yo-yo's to use as a tool.

Paul

    The lesson is clear:
    
    If it's in public view, get a permit.
    
    If it's within the walls of your castle, do what you damn well please
    (keeping in mind that the castle might change hands some day).

    Actually, the lesson should be:  GET A PERMIT
    
    I think the satellite thing in the Back Bay was not visible from
    anywhere except from the top of some other building (one, if I
    can remember right)
    
    they STILL made him tear it down.
    
    
    -bill

    I'm considering some landscaping (leveling, adding fill and top
    soil), cutting down trees and adding a small deck in the back yard.
    It would replace an existing brick patio.  From the sounds of this
    discussion, I would probably need a permit for something.  I guess
    it's safe to say if your doing anything to YOUR property which some
    else may see from THEIR property, you most likely need a permit.
    I guess I'll make some calls.  Boy, nothing is simple anymore.

In 1975, I bought a house in the Santa Cruz mountains, west of the famous
Silicon Valley.  This house had originally been a single story house built
on a hillside, so that it had about 3/4 of a full basement above ground.
The previous owner took advantage of this space by leveling the floor, pouring
a slab, and building walls inside of the original walls, to add sort of a 
building inside of a building.  Then he added a little wiring, a new propane
FHA central heating system, and a stairway up to the living room.  No permits
for any of it.  Later, I removed the heating system, and replaced it with
a heat pump.  This was done by a contractor, and was all legal.  In 1980, I
accepted a job at DEC in Hudson, MA, and put the house on the market.  Houses
were not moving very well, so after a couple of months, DEC brought in a 
third party relocation company to handle the house.  These companies buy houses
and resell them just so the owner can get the equity out of them quickly, and
they charge a huge fee (~18% of house value) to do it.  When the house was
appraised, as part of this deal, the appraiser suggested to the relocation
company that they check for permits, because this was obviously not original.
To make a long story short, the contract was cancelled, and I ended up selling
the house, for a few thousand dollars less than what I could have had, about
a month later, with a swing loan, etc.  This was a very painful process.  
The actual work in question looked to me to be up to code, but to get permits
would have required drawing up full plans, hiring a general contractor, etc, 
all from 3k miles away, while holding a builder at bay for my new house closing.
We were very lucky things came out as well as they did.  I would NEVER do any
work without getting permits if there were ANY chance that it would be noticed.
This means anything beyond replacing an outlet, faucet, etc.  

rep:-2

I've never heard of a permit for landscaping.  I've taken out permits multiple
times over the last 10 years and there is no reference anywhere to work outside
the house itself.

-mark

    
    
    Here are a couple of incidents I ran into in Syracuse NY with boulding
    inspectors.
    
    #1. My best friend while going to Syracuse University Architech
    School worked as a building inspector for the City of Syracuse.
    His life was threatened by some very high officials in Syracuse
    after he threatened them he would tell the newspapers what is going
    on here. The City of Syracuse inspectors are very corrupt. Bribes
    are a common way of life for them. There was one building inspector
    that my friend worked with that drove a Mercedes, had a summer camp
    in Canada, also had a $200,000 home. This was pretty good since
    his salary (on paper that is) was only 21,000 a year. The honest
    building inspector in Syracuse is non-existant. 
    
    In Syracuse you can't do your own wiring or plumbing. It must be
    done by an liscensed electrician or plumber.
    
    
    #2. My brother-in-law bought a house in East Syarcuse NY for an
    investment. The house was in real bad shape. It had to be rewired
    and new plumbing had to be put in, almost new evrything. My
    brother-in-law did the wiring himself (in this small town you can
    do your own wiring, it just has to be inspected). My brother-in-law
    is a plant manager for the Crysler plant there, so he got all the
    wire he need from the work. The wire he got was 12 gage. The code
    called for 14 gage. He wired the whole house with the 12 gage wiring
    he got free from work using 15 amp circuits. When the building
    inspector came he failed the house because 14 gage wire wasn't used.
    We tried to explain to him that 12 gage was better then 14 gage.
    But he wouldn't listen. My brother-in-law took the town to court.
    He won, but it took 4 weeks to clear it up. The building inspector
    they had didn't know anything about wiring or plumbing (or anything
    else for that matter). He just went by what it said in the book.
   

    I saw this in the paper this week and did it bring a smile to my
    face. :-)

    In the town of Winchendon Mass, (I believe this was the town.....
    maybe someone could confirm it for me), a petition signed by fifty
    residents was present that called for the immediate removal of
    the town's building inspector. The main complaint was that they
    would no longer stand for his lack of knowledge and common sense
    pertaining to building pratices and permits. 
    
    Charly

    
    	The problem with a lousy building inspector is that no one
    can afford to take the guy on.  If you were a builder would you
    stand up at a town meeting and say what you really thought about
    the inspector?  Have fun when you need your permit signed off.  The
    people who run the town usually have no contact with the building
    dept.   
    I don't particularly like my building inspector, contractors are always
    complaining, and he loves to hassle my plumber.  What am I going
    to do?  Nothing, absolutely nothing.  After being caught once
    and getting off after pleading ignorance, me and the inspector 
    are best buddies :^).
    					=Ralph=
    	
         Hats off to the people with enough guts to stand up for themselves

    I just called the Board of Health to find out if my septic system
    plans have been approved yet for the town of Billerica.  The woman
    told me that I have to come down, get what's called an assignment
    form, bring it to the bank and put $2,500 in an account that's held
    for either 1 or 2 years after occupancy.  This is something new
    to me.  Do all towns do it?  What is the reason for it?  I could
    really use that $2,500 for new appliances and stuff.  Do I collect
    interest on that money?
    
    Chris D.

    
    How strange!! I had a new septic system put in about 18months
    ago in Billerica....nothing like that happened...
    Have you talked to the Inspector directly (used to be Peter Gray
    -- maybe still)?  I found the secretaries in all of the town
    offices very *unhelpful* as well as completely unknowledgeable...
    but maybe they have new ones now. 
    Are you close to where the sewers are to be installed in town?
    Maybe they are trying to delay you till they can get the town
    sewers in...... 
    Or maybe its just new 1988 laws.  Talk with the inspector, or
    the selectman...they might shed some light on the situation.
    
    Deb
    

<    plans have been approved yet for the town of Billerica.  The woman
<    told me that I have to come down, get what's called an assignment
<    form, bring it to the bank and put $2,500 in an account that's held
<    for either 1 or 2 years after occupancy. 

This seems to be becoming a common pratice.  I vaguely recall debating this at 
a town meeting a few years ago, but I don't remember if our town adopted it.  
The $2500 escrow account is set up to make sure that in case of a septic 
system failure there is money available to redesign and rebuild the septic 
system.  If a septic system fails in the first two years it is assumed to be a 
design problem, after two years it is assumed to be a maintainence problem.

Is Billerica part of the Nashoba Regional Health Board?  They seem to be a 
driving force behind this.

Depending on your finance company you maybe able to include this in your 
construction loan and mortgage minimizing your short term expenses.  Then in 
two years you will have a $2800.

Brian 

    	STATE:  So you want a septic system eh?  Well!
    
    		It has to be designed according to *OUR* regulations.
    		It has to be built to *OUR* specifications.
    		It has to be installed by someone licensed by *US*.
    		It has to be inspected by *OUR* people.
    
    		Oh yes, and by the way, if there is a design flaw and
    		the system fails, *WE ARE NOT* responsible.
    
    
    		Sign here: ................
    
    
    
    	MR. TAXPAYER:  Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.

<    	STATE:  So you want a septic system eh?  Well!
<    
<    		It has to be designed according to *OUR* regulations.
<    		It has to be built to *OUR* specifications.
<    		It has to be installed by someone licensed by *US*.
<    		It has to be inspected by *OUR* people.


	You left out:

		WE hire a consultant with YOUR money to verify the design.

    I just got back from vacation today with the info.  I do not have
    to get an escrow account unless I sell the house within the first
    year.  If I sell, then the account stays for two years.  I had to
    sign a form agreeing to that.  I guess this is to protect the new owners.  
    Thanks for the responces.
    
    Chris D.

    
    	Over the past two years, I have: gutted and redid my kitchen,
    added a bathroom and added a deck.  I have got my permits
    and waited around all day for the inspectors.  What has been the
    main result of the permits, a 15% tax increase.
    	The town revalued my neighborhood and because I have done 'extensive'
    (their word not mine) work to my house my taxes went up by 15% more
    than the average house.  Sometimes you just cant win.
    
    					=Ralph= 

    Since buying my home I have added a basement,deck and at least 10
    other things requiring a permit. Did I get one he(( no! But that
    dident stop my taxes from taking a 12% jump. There is no winning
    it seems when the subject is tax increases.
    
    -j
    

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but my fear is that on something MAJOR, you should get
one.  Part of the reason being for insurance in case something goes wrong or
possibly at the time of a sale.  I found during my structural inspection that
my bedroom window was too small and has to be replaced.  I'd hate to think of
what would happen if I went to sell the place and it failed the bank inspection
because of that.

On the other hand, stuff like a deck or woodshed or even some minor interial
framing (like moving a wall or two) I'd probably not bother with.  Ditto for
small wiring jobs.

-mark

<On the other hand, stuff like a deck or woodshed or even some minor interial
<framing (like moving a wall or two) I'd probably not bother with.  Ditto for
<small wiring jobs.

Decks or woodsheds(also pools) are hard to hide, so you should get a permit.  
When your property is reevaluated and there is a discrepency, it can be 
reported to the building inspector.  

Minor internal framing is also one of the biggest problems for inspectors, based
on comments from a friend in the inspectors office in Mesa, Arizona.  Many 
people do not know the difference between a load bearing wall and a non-load 
bearing wall(or that there are such things as load bearing partitions).  To 
encourage people to get permits, they have a form letter they use when no permit
is required(i.e. nonstructural walls).  It basically says your plans have been 
inspected and are on file, and no permit is required.  In Arizona, permits are 
required less frequently then Massachusetts where you need a permit for anything
more complicated then hanging a picture:-).

Small wiring jobs?  If the circuit is 110V, 15A(i.e. no kitch/dining rooms) 
standard breaker(i.e. no bathrooms), and competient electrician, I probably 
would not pull a permit(in AZ it used to be unnecessary).  A good house 
inspector could tell after the work is finished if "new work" had been done 
and find most of the major hazards.

Permits are good for three things(in order of importance):
   1)  Protect future owners.  Towns careless if your house colaspses on you.

   2)  Protect you from your insurance company.  No permit+bad work=no claim

   3)  Aid in reevaluating property.  Some permits in some locations are not
   available for tax reevaluation(e.g. gas) to encourage people to get permits.

Brian

    I am moving into a house I bought this weekend, after just relocating
    from the UK. A friend is building a deck, and I am converting the
    smallest bedroom of 4, to a 2nd bathroom. After;
    
    * seeing what my taxes are, and what I get for paying them
    * realising I have to produce/have produced plans that will indirectly
      increase my taxes
    * having to pay "points" to the bank for the priveledge of giving
      them vast amounts of interest over the term of the mortgage
    * having to qualify to the bank where my money was made in the UK
      (have you seen how house prices rise there?!!!)
    * having to lie to the bank to get a home improvement loan to improve
      my home, because they won't lend money against the idea of adding
      equity? (They expect to charge "risk business" interest rates,
      without taking risks....why?)
    
    Will I apply for a permit?  So they can screw me more? The first
    punch was free.....
                                                          
    
    Brian.

                  -< watch the second punch... >-

>    Will I apply for a permit?  So they can screw me more? The first
>    punch was free.....


    I am trying to avoid the second punch!...

        Having made the same decission for the  same  reasons,  I built a
        deck around an above ground pool!   Unknown  to  me  untill after
        building was complete, I  have  a  very civic minded neighbor who
        wants to make sure that  our  neighborhood  is  up  to  the  city
        standards.    She  walks around daily  and  when  she  sees  some
        addition or change that is not on the city records,which  she has
        committed  to memory.  She reports it to ensure that everyone  is
        protected against faulity construction.  

        The only problem I have with this is  she  only reports it to the
        Tax office!  

        My pool is well hidden by the house and I am making  all attempts
        to ensure that is remains so after the trees loose there leaves.

        
        

    Call the town hall and inquire about a permit. If a permit
    IS needed and one does NOT request same, one is INVITING the
    wrath of -frequently- vengeful, narrow minded bureaucrats who are
    none the less in power.
    

    I doing things without a permit and everything went ok until 100%
    evaluation came along.  The city sent out people to look over all
    property in the city and give each a full valuation.  They found
    my deck, an added on back porch, and my second shed out back,
    which were duly recorded on the tax records.  I had waited to
    put in some new windows and other improvments to the house until
    after the assessor had gone thru the house.  I did the improvments
    last year.  This year they apparently did another upgrade of the
    assessments to 100% evaluation and published all property assessements
    in the newspaper by address and name.  Of course it went up!!  I
    think they are supposed to do the evaluations every 3 years by Mass.
    law.  Right???
    
      Ken    
    

         Is there such a thing as towns issuing a "Temporary" occupancy
    permit???  The house is complete, electricity, plumbing, septic and
    heat are all in.  Inspectors for the plumbing, electricity and health
    department have all signed off.
    The problem is the excavation on the property is not done yet.
    To get an "Official" occupancy permit, the excavation has to be
    done too (because I need a certified plot plan).  I don't see why 
    we have to wait.  
    
         Chris D.
    
    p.s. I can't believe the beurocratic B.S. you have to go through
    to put up a house.  No wonder people hire contractors to do that
    stuff.

     I've been in the same situation before. I had already closed on
    my house and had no choice. We moved our furniture in, and took
    the risk. The inspector didn't even bother us, for that matter we
    didn't tell him we moved in. But until you do that excavation
    the bank has no assurance that the work will get done, they're only
    protecting themselves in case you default on your mortgage and don't
    do the work.

    re: .01  Thanks for the response but this has nothing to do with 
    the bank.  This is just regarding the occupancy permit from the 
    town only.
    
    Chris D.
    

    
    	I don't believe there is such a thing as a temporary permit.
    The town's view is probably, does the property meet the requirements
    set forth for occupancy or not.  Excavation not done?  Doesn't meet
    the requirements.  No permit.  However, you may be able to convince
    them to let you move in before receiving the permit, or convince
    them to let you move in with the permit under agreement that the
    work will be done within a specified period of time.  That's what
    happened to me.  There were some electrical things that did not
    meet code (lights on every house exit) but the inspector gave us
    permission to move in since our lease ran out at the apartment.
    Of course, telling him my wife was pregnant, sobbing a little, and
    then getting down on one knee and begging didn't hurt either. 
    (just kidding)
    
    Contractors go through the same b.s., and end up delaying you from
    moving in.  You know, "it'll be ready in just one more week".  You
    don't see the inspection problems, but some people end up bringing
    the contractor to court for not finishing the project in time.
                                                                    

>        re: .01  Thanks for the response but this has nothing to do with 
>    the bank.  This is just regarding the occupancy permit from the 
>    town only.
 
    When I tried to get my occupancy permit a little early (I think
    the paint on one wall was still tacky or something), the inspector
    told me he couldn't give it to me because by giving me an occupancy
    permit, he's telling the bank that all work had been completed.
    If the work were never completed the bank would sue the town.
    
    So the bank may be involved in your case, even though they don't
    know anything about it.
       

> To get an "Official" occupancy permit, the excavation has to be done too
> (because I need a certified plot plan).  I don't see why we have to wait.  

     1.  nit:  I'm not sure what you mean by "certified plot plan".  This
sounds like the thing we got from the septic-design-engineer-type-person,
without which we couldn't build at all.
     2.  Bottom line is your town's inspector.  Whether his position is
legally defensible or not, his word counts (without getting nasty).  It seems
that something like the teary-eyed pleading ( :-)  a couple replies back) might
be worth a try!  Important:  Get on his good side!
     And each town inspector's different.  The guy in the town we're building
in (southern NH) sounds pretty flexible - upstairs can be very unfinished
("no bare wires"), downstairs carpets and/or flooring isn't necessary, railings
on stairways are.  It all depends.
     BTW, our bank says, in order to close, "Variable-rate mortage?  no problem.
Fixed-rate?  your lawn grass must exceed 3" in height.  (slight exaggeration)

    I'm confused.......What do you mean by excavation?  Do you mean
    the landscaping? Do you mean the backfilling around the foundation?
    
    I'm just curious......

    By excavation I mean the tarred driveway, sifting and spreading
    the loom, seeding, cementing the platform and retaining walls for
    the cellar walkout.  This stuff has to be done for the certified
    plot plan.  BTW, we had to have a plot plan done to build the house,
    now we have to have another one done just in case something ended
    up a couple of inches off from the original plan.  The building
    inspector has to have that before giving us an occupancy permit.
    By the time the rest of the landscaping/excavation is done, then
    getting the surveyors up, and getting the street department up
    to check the tarring job (believe it or not), and getting the fire
    inspector up there (they are really slow) and then getting the building
    inspector up, I'll be old and grey.               
    
    Chris D.

    This probably doesn't count for much, but I've never heard of
    a town requiring the landscaping to be done to get an occupancy
    permit.  
    

	re: .5?

	The occupancy permit and completion are unrelated events.  An 
	occupancy permit can be issued when minimum building requirements are
	meet and no unsafe conditions exist on the building site.  

<    This probably doesn't count for much, but I've never heard of
<    a town requiring the landscaping to be done to get an occupancy
<    permit.  
    
	This will depend on your order of conditions issue by the consevation 
	commission when you file for a building permit.  The order of conditions
	will specify thing such as limiting the area of the construction site,
	can haybail or plastic barrier be used, all kinds of requirements on the
	well and septic, landscaping requirements if adjacent to or drain
	into wetlands or potable water, and limits on paved surfaces to 
	maintain aquifer replenishment.  In Townsend the conservation commision
	has been requiring landscaping on a lot of new construction.

	Brian  

         I talked to the Conservation Commisioner in my town and he said
    to tell the building inspector not to hold up the permit because
    of him and if the inspector wants to he can call him.  That's the
    first good thing that's happened with the town so far.   So yes,
    the landscaping has to be done for release from the order of
    conditions.  There are still some things that have to get done before
    the certified plot plan gets done so what I'm going to do is finish
    getting the other signatures and then go to him and say "Do we really
    have to have the plot plan before we can move in?"  Maybe if I beg
    and shed some tears he'll give in if I promise to get it to him
    as soon as it's done.
    
    Chris D.
    

    Ask some builders how strict your inspectors are in your area about
    moving in before the final permit is issued. Our inspectors wouldn't
    tell you of course but they were not strict at all in my area .
    I lived their two months before getting final inspection. 

    This question is specifically with regard to NEW HAMPSHIRE building
    code requirements.   
    
    I need to have my electrical service upgraded to 200 AMP.   Since my
    town office is closed today and the electrician (my cousin) is coming
    to check out the work tonight, I would appreciate any information
    people can provide.
    
    Does NH require that a NH licensed electrician pull the permit
    for a service upgrade?
    
    (My cousin is licensed in MA but not in NH.)
    

    I know that Derry requires a master electrician to pull the electrical
    permit.  I'm not sure if that would apply in your town.
    
    Al

    
    re .6
    
    It depends upon the down. In Goffstown NH, it just has to be inspected
    by either the Town/County inspector or signed off by a Electrician.
    
    Mike

    Where are YOU located ??
    
    Last I knew Nashua did not require a licensed electrician to work
    on your OWN house.  If you let slip that your cousin is going to
    do the work they may ask for his license.
    
    Pull the permit yourself.  Help, and I mean help your cousin do
    the actual work so that when the inspector comes you can explain
    why you did things the way you did.  Your cousin will have to bring
    you up to speed while he does the work.
    
    It's not all that difficult.  Just requires a little experience
    and confidence.  I did it myself a couple of years ago and the only
    place I had any problem was that I failed to realize that you need
    to upgrade your ground wire to the water pipe and drive a local
    ground rod as close to the box as possible.

    Thanks fro all the replies so far.   I forgot to mention that I live
    in Auburn, NH.   My cousin is a MA licensed master electrician.  He
    voiced the concern to me that because he was not licensed in NH he
    may not be able to pull the permit.   As was suggested in .-1, if
    I am able to pull the permit myself and help him with the work (which
    I do intend to do) that may solve my problem.
    
    From the varying replies, it seems that I will still have to check with
    my town inspector to find out what his/her requirements are.
    
    Thanks again for the quick and encouraging replies.   Anyone familiar
    with the specific requirements in Auburn??
    
    						Thank You,
    						Patsy
    

->      The occupancy permit and completion are unrelated events.  An 
->	occupancy permit can be issued when minimum building requirements are
->	meet and no unsafe conditions exist on the building site.  


	What types of things are deemed "minimum building requirements"?

	Some specifics would be appreciated.  For example, could a occupancy 
        permit be issued if the subfloor was exposed and interior trim was 
        not completed?

agb

    re: .12
    
    In regards to the subfloor: the floor must be completed for Occ.
    
    A somewhat general listing of the requirements follows.  Keep in mind
    that each town/inspector will have specifics that must be followed.
    
    	1) Must have running water
    	2) Must have electricity
    	3) Must have 2 exits from first floor
    	4) Kitchen must have sink, countertop (of some type) and flooring
    	5) Bathroom must be complete
    
    There are others, but my memory is fading.  I will attempt to look them
    up in the codebook.
    
    Dan

Thanks,


	So, you don't think "they" would buy it if I said I WANTED a plywood 
        floor?  :)

agb

    
    
    	When we bought our house the carpet was back ordered so for
    	about a month we had 'beautiful' plywood floor until the 
    	carpet came.
    
    	Actually it turned out pretty well because we were moving 
    	furniture etc. in and since the yard consisted of just loam
    	we didn't end up tracking it all over a new carpet. 
    
    
    						Mike
    						----

Yea, Plywood isn't too bad for a while.  If the bank requires a 
occupancy permit to close out a construction loan, it seems that plywood 
subfloors don't cut it.

andy

Couldn't you put in el cheapo sheet vinyl or indoor/outdoor carpeting to
get your occupancy certificate?  I have some friends who carpeted their
back yard for a party.  They rented a tent, but they bought the carpeting.
I'm sure they didn't pay a lot, and they ended up using some of it to
carpet their enclosed porch.

    RE: Plywood subfloors don't cut it 
    
    Do what we did when we couldn't afford the carpet and knew we'd be
    living on the plywood for a while;
    
    STAIN IT!!  It really doesn't look all that bad.  We stained and
    polyurethaned two rooms, (sanded first), and 2 1/2 years later, we're
    still not in a hurry to get the carpeting.  It really doesn't look as
    bad as you think.  We could afford the stain, but not the carpet we
    want.  The subfloor was laid with sheetrock (I think) screws, that have
    black heads, which seem to add character to the floor.  And with 2
    small boys, the floor has been a lot easier to maintain than carpet
    would've been.  A few throw rugs, and most people have never noticed it
    was plywood.  They'd have to go look at it again AFTER we told them.
    
    Is there a law that says you can't have a plywood floor??
    
    Patty

I think that the code couldn't say you can't use plywood for the floor.  
I suspect that it requires at least a subfloor that covers the joists.  After
all, where does the code writer get off telling us what we can and can't have
for a floor?

Ed..

    RE: - a few
    
    What the inspector looks for is not PLYwood vs vinyl or anything else,
    but a FINISHED floor.  Staining then finishing the plywood is finishing
    the floor, therefore no problem.
    
    Dan

    Well, $$Dollar$$ wise, it cost us about $50.00 and about 3 days labor to
    sand, stain and polyurethane the floors (spread over about a week to
    allow drying time and sore muscles to heal).  That was with a hand-held
    power sander (what a MESS!)  Compared to ~$800.00 for the carpet we 
    want(ed).  I suppose you could rent a finish sander, but the plywood
    might be too soft for that.  Anyway, it looks _sort of_ like a
    wide-pine-board floor.  (With enough drinks it REALLY looks like it!)
    The only thing I don't like is that it's slippery - but no more so than
    any other wood floor.
    
    We had time, but no money.  Worked out well for us!
    
    Good luck!
    Patty

    re: plywood subfloors 
    
    Living with plywood subfloors bothered one bank we were talking to
    about using to convert our construction loan to a mortgage. Their
    definition of "finished" (mainly, I suspect, to facilitate selling the
    mortgage) included either carpeting or what they defined as permanent
    flooring. 

    The building inspector didn't care a hoot about the plywood floors. As
    far as I was concerned, **he** was the code. We've painted the plywood
    with floor/deck paint and are doing OK with it. Just as soon as the
    stock gets back to 199 we'll put down the nice hardwood. :-(
    
    John H. 
    
    John H.

 I think you might have trouble getting an occupancy permit if all you have
 is the standard half inch plywood subfloor.  The reason is that your usual
 inch thick hardwood flooring is not just decorative, it is also structural.
 And if you don't have hardwood flooring then you have some other sort of
 underlayment to increase the strength of the floor.  I've heard of an extra
 thick (1 inch +) T&G plywood that is intended to act as both subfloor and
 underlayment, which you might want to look into if you really want to move
 in with just a "subfloor" down.

 Vince

re: << Note 2609.23 by NETRIX::wallace >>>

> I think you might have trouble getting an occupancy permit if all you have
> is the standard half inch plywood subfloor. 
      
      I think that the standard for subflooring is 3/4, not 1/2 inch. 
      
      In any case, "standard" subflooring plus carpeting is O.K. and the
      carpeting surely doesn't add any structural strength!

    re - a few
    
    $50.00 to finish the floor, could have been spent on a rug. Several
    places sell carpet remnants for $79.00 [for anything in the store].
    They come as large as 12 x 14. Even though it is temporary, they can be
    reused, as opposed to the work you did on the floor, which will be covered
    someday.
    
    
    FYI

What is needed for an occupancy permit is determined largely by the town.  I
believe that there are some close-in Boston suburbs (Weston, maybe?) which
require LANDSCAPING before you move in - they don't want unfinished-looking
houses around.  On the other extreme, some friends of ours built a house in
northern NH - the building inspector wanted a waterproof roof and at least one
flush toilet connected to the septic system for their occupancy permit.  That's
it.  They didn't need electricity, interior walls, siding, or anything else.

Talk to your town building inspector to find out what the case is in your town.

Paul

As -.1 stated, the rules vary widely from town to town, inspector to inspector,
and bank to bank. Most of the folklore comes from bank rules. They are the
hardest since they don't want to be stuck with an unfinished house.

I live in a partially completed house. On our street there are three new
homes. All three of us well given widely different rules on what needed to
be complete from the banks. The building inspector was mainly interested in
a working kitchen, bath, and other normal building code metrics.

You can get a "temporary" occupancy in most towns. This is usually allowed when
the house is complete enough to live in but no finish floors, paint, etc. They
are used to let people occupy their homes under the agreement that they will
be completing the rest "soon". Some towns set a time limit, others look the 
other way forever.... I know some people who still have temporary occupancy
permits and they have been in their houses for 10+ years. I imagine they will
have problems when they go to sell. And some banks won't accept temporary 
permits for a final mortgage.

	In summary, separate the two steps. First you need to worry about
occupancy being granted by the town in order to live in the house. Second,
you need to meet the banks rules for a final mortgage. The latter is much
more difficult. If you are doing this with no intention of obtaining a 
mortgage, you will have a much easier time.

							Mark

    I am thinking about buying an 85+ year old house.  The inside has seen
    extensive renovation.  A wall was removed between the livingroom and
    diningroom to open up the living space.  An exposed beam was put in
    place of the wall.  Since the wall runs through the middle of the
    house, I assume that it is loadbearing and not just a cosmetic touch. 
    The two rooms were also expanded into the front porch area - from the
    outside you could see where the porch windows used to be.
    
    My question is, is a building permit required to perform these type of
    renovations?  Is there anything a home inspection can tell me about the
    quality of the work if there weren't permits in place?  I'm concerned
    because there are poorly patched cracks in the plaster of the wall
    directly above it in the master bedroom.  The realtor did say the
    cracks were caused by the removal of the wall downstairs.  I'd also be
    putting a king size water bed in that room.  Even though the weight of
    the water is well spread out in a water bed, I want to make sure the
    room as a whole can support the weight.

I can tell you what I have encountered.  We are just finishing a project very 
similar to what you have described.  In fact, it is almost exactly what we have
done (hey - you aren't trying to buy my house are you?)

When structural work is done, usually a permit is required.  We did get a permit
for our job, even though I preferred not to.

One thing we found is that the beam has to be sized large enough.  We have a
house that had the traditional hall leading along the staircase, with doors into
two rooms.  We removed the hallway wall, and the wall between the two rooms.

This required us to put in TWO beams.  One beam went from the front of the house
to the back.  This beam is not the load bearing direction.  The other beam goes
from the front-to-back beam to the outside wall.  By doing this, BOTH beams
have become load bearing (the front-to-back beam being only a point load).  In
our kitchen, the previous owner removed a wall and sized the beam too small.
The wall has sagged upstairs over this beam.

Our beams are pretty good sizes.  One is something like 12 inches and the other
is something like 9 inches (I don't have the exact measurements here, they are
at home).

As long as the beams are big enough, I can't see many other problems you could
have.  Except to be sure that the beams are attached to the posts strong enough.
We nailed the posts to existing studs, and nailed 2x4 cats to attach the post
to the beam.  We have one post which is somewhat open.  For this post, we 
installed two steel plates (one on each side).  We drilled 4 holes (2 through
the beam and two through the post).  We then BOLTED the steel plates to the post
and beam.  Where the beam point loads front-to-back beam, we again BOLTED a steel
bracket to the front-to-back beam.  We then set the other beam in the bracket
and again BOLTED the beam.

So, some things to look for are how the beams and posts are connected.  There
probably had to be some wiring changed, so check how this was done.  There was
also probably some steam piping which had to be changed (at least for us).
We found both steam pipes and power going through one of the walls we removed.

The plaster would have probably cracked when the beams were installed.  In
order to install our beams, we had to do some serious lifting.  It seems that
over the 90 years, the load bearing wall had allowed the floor above to settle
some.  I also sistered 2x6s to the existing floor joists to help stiffen the
upstairs floor.  The little bit of creaking totally disappeared after that.

You can also check in the basement to see where the posts were placed.  They
should be right over the main supports.  If not, verify that they can handle
the load of the house.

I can tell you more about what we did, if you want.

Ed..

    Permits are definitely required for this type of stuff.  You should be
    able to go to the town building department and pull the permit and may 
    even be able to look at the plans of what was done.  I know that when I
    removed a portion of the main load bearing wall in my house I had to
    make a set of plans showing what work was to be done, the support
    points, beam sizes etc. and leave them on file.
    
    George

    Thanks for the info.  I did get some more info from the realtor. 
    Apparently the seller's father-in-law did the work.  He's been a
    contractor for over 50 years.  It doesn't sound like a permit was taken
    out.  There was some handwaving too over whether or not it was a
    loadbearing wall which was removed. 
    
    We did some more thinking and decided that the house is just too small,
    so we aren't going to pursue it any further.

    Quick question on building permits ...
    
    What building permits go the board of health for review?  I know that
    if you add bedrooms in a proposed renovation or addition the b.o.h.
    will need to review the permit before it is ok'ed, but how about simple
    expansions or renovations where the number of bedrooms is not
    increased?  And what criteria do they use in their review.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jodi 
    (Central Mass)

The building inspector may, as a matter of protocol, send copies of all permits
to all departments.  However, I don't believe the Board of Health will have
any say over the construction unless you're adding bedrooms, bathrooms, or they
already know of problems with your septic system.  If they know that you
have a system on the verge of failing, or else an antiquated system such as
a cesspool, it's possible (but not necessarily the case) that local
rules may require you to update the system along with any renovations.

   Gary

    We have a three-bedroom Cape which was originally built as a
    three-bedroom cape.  The last owner turned the downstairs bedroom into
    a dining room, making it a two-bedroom Cape.  We have just nearly
    completed adding a third bedroom, making it a three-bedroom Cape
    again.
    
    Even though our septic system was designed for three bedrooms, we
    had to have it inspected before we could put up the addition.  It had
    to meet the current requirements for a three-bedroom.  I live in Stow,
    MA, and I'm sure every town is different.
                      --tom

    
    My understanding is that the septic system is in support of x bedrooms
    - not x baths or square footage... based on the fact that what is
    supported is based on the number of people inputing to the system, not
    how many places they can input from. 
    
    How is a system defined as needing updating?  If it was installed prior
    to what - 1976(?) then it is not title V. - Does that make it
    "antiquated" and needing updating?  Even it is functioning?
    
    I am having a hard time putting a finger on exactly what criteria is
    used to determine (a) when the board of health has right-to-review/deny
    a permit and (b) what specific criteria they use to make their
    determination as to approval/denial of the building permit.
    
    Does the b.o.h. also review "repair only" building permit applications?
    
    
    jodi

    Any time a repair includes part of the septic system, the repair must
    conform to current code requirements.  Yes the system is sized
    according to the number of bedrooms and baths.  There was a change, I
    believe in 1984 or 1986 which increased the basic size of the system.
    The earlier code required a tank to be sized starting with 500 Gals
    plus some factor of bedrooms and baths.  The result was usually a
    500-750gal tank for 1-2 bedroom homes.  This was increased so that the
    typical size is now 1000-1500 gal.  I don't have the exact numbers with
    me at the moment but I can get them from the code book.
    
    Dan

    re.0
    
    We recently added over 1000 sq. ft. including a bedroon, and 1/2 bath.
    I was the GC, and applied for all permits, and did all the interfacing
    w/ city hall. Never had to deal w/ Board of Health at all. And I live
    in Central MA.  However I do not know if the Building inspector had
    to notify them or not, I certainly did not have to.
    
    FYI/Bob
    

    Time to re-open this note....
    
    5 years ago we bought an older (75 years) house in Athol, MA.  The 
    previous owners (elderly) had vintage 1950 everything.  A lot of work
    went into it.  I had contractors do some things, and I did the rest.
    
    Well, recently there was a memo in the paper reminding people that 
    permits are necessary for most everything, especially swimming pools
    in excess of 4,000 gallons.  Well, I was thinking about the things I've
    done without a permit:  Rewired the entired house, installed a 24'
    above ground pool, a 2-floor deck (approximately 26 x 12), amongst
    numerous other things that _probably_ required a permit.  (The pool 
    and deck can't be seen from the street).  My taxes/valuation for taxes
    haven't increased enough to reflect the work.  In addition, I've 
    refinanced a couple of times and saw slight increases in the valuation
    (keeping in mind the current housing market).  
    
    Anyway, should I get an "after-the-fact" permit, or just live with it,
    and deal with it when (and if) the time comes?  Pros/Cons?
    
    Gene
    

    No.  Don't tell them now.
    
    A building permit is closed when the work is inspected and signed off.
    For certain types of work that may mean re-opening things and fixing
    them, etc.  Inspectors are known to be subjective and spiteful.
    
    Also, you may be in for penalties.  I know when I inquired about a
    buying a house that had been "improved" in Lexington, that they would
    levy 3x normal fees if a post-fact permit was pulled to fix something
    wrong.
    
    There do exist grandfather clauses for "existing conditions" and there
    is a sort of "statue of limitations".
    Just be careful in the future.
    
    	Dave.

    
    
    Well, you could apply for the after the fact permits and potentially
    still be fined or let a sleeping dog lie.

    
    
    "OH, its been this way as long as I can remember!".........
    
    When the go around again to do a revaluation, they'll
    be more that happy to get more tax money.:)
    
    

The woman I jsut bought a house from had a deck put on in OCt 1990 without a
permit.  When the plot plan was done for the bank it was determined that the
deck was 7" (yes, 7") too close to the lot line.  Title insurance covered the
bank so they said they'd let it go.  My title insurance wouldn't cover it 
though.  My lawyer made all sorts of phone calls.  I could (a) leave it like it
is and in 10 years or something it would be ok cause it'd been there that long
wtih no complaint, (b) cut off the 7" (it's more of a platform than a deck, 8"
high or so, so it's not as big a deal as it sounds), have it resurveyed and get 
a building permit issued (this was agreed to by the building inspector and in 
fact, the surveyors said they'd be the go between) and get $200 from the seller
to cover the costs, (c) just leave it and deal with it when I sell the house if 
that's less than 10, or whatever the number was, years from now, or (d) have the
seller fix it.  I first opted for d until I found out she was just gonna have
someone cut off the required amount and not finish it off again or make it
symmetrical (it's an angle cut due to the lot line being at an angle).  I ended
up doing the work with help from a friend and am waiting to hear back from the
surveyors.  There are no fines involved.  THe permit is $25.  The material (a
new header board) was $8.  The surveyors trips to check it out should be around
$60.  It was a pain to do the work but it's over and done with now and I don't 
have to worry about it years down the road.

	    I was told by an inspector that I could not start any work 
	until a permit was issued or the permit cost would be doubled.
	The `intent' of the inspection is to make sure things are safe
	(to code).  Problem is, you pay for the permit and then they'll
	boost your property taxes to reflect the increased property 
	value.
	    If you do a job without a permit, don't get caught.  If they
	question any `existing' improvements, "It was like that when I 
	bought the house."
					Tim

    I just had an in-ground pool installed, had to obtain building permit
    before contractor could start work.  No one from the city ever came to
    inspect...not sure what the purpose of the permit really is.  I think
    it is just another way for the city to get money.
    

re: .48

I assume you or the contractor called the town saying you were ready for an
inspection.

bjm - who like to be on the good side of all inspectors - they can make your
      life hell!

    geez...I did not realize it was my responsibility.  On the permit was 
    the inspector who was responsible for inspection, I just assumed it was
    their job to contact me.
    

    When we had our pool put in, we had to get the permit and display it
    all through construction (it was nailed to a convenient tree).
    
    Once the hole was dug, the walls erected the concrete skirt poured 
    and the initial wiring done (especially the ground), then we had a
    first inspection.
    
    After that, the sides were backfilled, the concrete surround poured, 
    the liner and water put in, the electrics finished off. I then called
    the inspector back for the second inspection. He found two problems.
    One with the wiring, simply corrected by the contractor, the second 
    was the fence. I'd put a temporary one around while the work was done
    and wanted to leave it that way until spring (it was then November).
    He said I must put the proper permanent fence up immediately, he
    wouldn't sign off until that was done.
    
    Imagine erecting a fence and installing a gate during December, with
    the temperature at 10-15�F. Miserable. :-(.
    
    - Richard.

    Re: .48
    
    Did you call the inspector when the work was done?
    
    Marc H.

    No, I did not call, I guess I just assumed it was the contractors
    responsibility...the pool is in, the electrical work completed ...don't
    think it is necessary to call inspector now.
    

Don't know what town you are in but they may just find out that the permit was
never closed out and then pay you a visit anyway.  I'd call and ask (playing
dumb).

Brian

    
    You might want to call and find out if its still open.....
    
    JD

    
    We just purchased a 2-family house, and will be remodeling the kitchens
    and baths.  We have done this type of work before, (plumbing/wiring/
    carpentry) however, we are thinking of using a plumber to save some
    time.  He insists on pulling a permit.
    
    Here is my question...(this is in Arlington/MASS)...can he pull a 
    permit, and have the inspection done, and we do the wiring later ?
    OR, is the inspector going to expect to see wiring at the same time,
    or check with his elec. inspector buddies about the house, etc.
    Is it risky to not enlist an electrician if we are going to use a
    plumber who pulls a permit ?
    
    rke
    

Any permit is going to let the town know that you are doing work. 

In MA (at least in the south shore) when remodeling is concerned the plumbing
and electrical inspection could be totally seperate - usually because the
plumbers hate to be around when the electrians are there (just kidding) but the
plumber won't like it if the electrical work is done first.

>>    Here is my question...(this is in Arlington/MASS)...can he pull a 
>>    permit, and have the inspection done, and we do the wiring later ?

Sure.

>>    OR, is the inspector going to expect to see wiring at the same time,
>>    or check with his elec. inspector buddies about the house, etc.

Most likly - depends on how much you rip apart.


>>    Is it risky to not enlist an electrician if we are going to use a
>>    plumber who pulls a permit ?

Risky in what way?  That you will "get caught"?  Yes its risky.

I know you are not supposed to do your own plumbing in MA but I have forgotten
if you can still do your own electrical work.  I think its left up to the town
you are in.  I have done work in Arlington  but it was a long time ago (10+
years) and I think I recall the inspector being a pain in the butt - he may be
gone by now.... not of any work I did, just said several times "I would have
done it this way" to several things...

bjm

    
    
    I Need advice on what to do about a permit for a three season
    porch.  I would like to enclose the three season porch and 
    convert it to a family room.  The door opening is already there and 
    I would like to add a few windows, new wiring, ceiling fan and skylights. 
    I don't believe we need to move any walls, or beams.  Should I go to
    the town hall and get a permit or what will happen if I do all that
    work without a permit and the inspector gets notified.  I would like
    to hear any suggestions.  I live in Maynard.  Anyone from Maynard who
    done this without permits??  
    
    Thanks
    Gloria

    I did this about 6 years ago in Milford MA.  I thought I could just
    build up the half height walls, as it turned out there was so much rot
    from water and carpenter ants I had to gut the whole thing.  All that 
    remained was the concrete slab and the roof.  
    
    I did get a permit, but it was only a wiring permit.  I did have to get
    a building permit for the attached deck I was building and the shed
    which I was also building at the same time.  But all I needed was the
    wiring permit for the room itself.  
    
    Every town and inspector probably has different rules.  
    
    BTW, I always get permits when it comes to major wiring jobs because I
    do not want to risk an insurance company denying a claim should a fire
    start.
    
    Mark

    Call town hall and ask them.  Between the wiring and the modifications
    to the roof, I would expect you would need some kind of permit(s).

I think the base noter was asking not whether a permit is legally required
but what's the risk of not getting one.

    I guess that depends on whether or not you can persuade the inspector
    not to report your lapse.

    
    What work requires a building permit in Boston. It's unclear 
    from the notes other than:
    
       -Electrical work
       -Plumbing work
       -Changing the structure
    
    Do you need a permit for:
    
       -Stripping wallpaper and repainting?
       -Putting down 1/4" plywood and adding a new ceramic floor?
       -Replacing windows with do-it-yourself install kind?
       -Putting up sheetrock to cover the walls of my kitchen
        and repainting?
       -Hooking up my new gas stove which may just be screwing in
        the flexible gas pipe?  
    
    Thanks,
    Jon
    
    

    
    I believe the items you listed do not require a permit.  Wallpapering,
    flooring, etc. do not require you to get a building permit.
    
    MEP
    

 . . . however, I wouldn't be a bit surprised that they'd be happy to "sell"
you one anyway, if you asked.

:^)

"This is a plumbing permit with the word 'plumbing' crossed out and
'wallpapering' written in in crayon!"  

					Steve

    Isn't hooking up a gas appliance forbidden in the PRM without the
    skilled assistance of a licensed practitioner i.e. a plumber?  

Why not call up the authorities and ask?  635-5306 might be the number.

    
    What about fencing? Does this require a permit?
    
    John

    Varies by town.  While I don't need a permit to erect a fence, the town
    by-laws do stipulate some "look and feel" things like min. height
    around a pool, etc.

I think most places require a permit if the fence is over a certain height.

    And... If you live in Auburn Mass. even a tree house needs a
    building permit as one sad sole has discovered!

    Although after reading several of the articles of this on going
    story, it sounds like there's more than meets the eye here.

    This guy started to build a tree house for his son and his
    girl friend's son, who are both autistic. The tree house was
    suppose to be a special get away for the two boys since they
    don't have too many playmates at the local park.

    The building inspector stopped by and slapped a stop work order on
    the struction and now begins the fun...

    The guy is a former building contractor and a former assitant
    building inspector in town and is now butting heads with the
    current building inspector in the town.

    Charly

If you don't get a permit, there's nothing to be inspected, right?

I have friends who will be selling their house in the next several
months.  The husband (also known as "Mr. Project Man") has done
lots of work over 17 years, including electrical, plumbing, structural.

They are wondering now if they are going to get "caught" and face the 
possibility of having to rectify the lack of several building permits 
never pulled.

I'm wondering who cares --

  o The buyer's bank? -- they do appraisal for market value. I don't
    see where they would be motivated to check building permits.

  o The buyer's home inspector (if any) -- he might find something
    not built to code that needs correcting, but still there's no
    legal connection between Mr. Project Man and the "permit-police".

  o The sharp buyer?  -- he or she may make inquiries and find out
    that there were no permits pulled.  So what?  Maybe the
    house came that way.  Don't like it? don't buy it.

  o The tax assessor?  Although not involved in the buy/sell transaction,
    at some point the assessor may figure out that a new bathroom
    got built and wonder why the building dept. didn't tell them about
    it at permit time (I'm sure the two departments work closely together
    so the tax dept can get extra $$ as soon as possible).

    Does the tax man notify the permit-police?  And if so, Mr. and Mrs.
    Project Man may be out of state by then.

The tax assessor is likely to look for permits for features not present on the
last assessment.

The sharp buyer might use lack of permits as a negotiation point.

			Steve

    wouldn't there be an issue at a later date if there were some damage
    and an insurance claim and subsequent investigation? To me, this
    becomes something to be wary of, if a project did not conform to code
    or was somehow overlooked.
    

    I havent scanned the file for this, but I have never heard of an actual
    case that involved what .7 said, where an insurance claim was denied
    because permits were not pulled or where work was not up to code in a
    residential dwelling. I once scanned my homeowner's policy, and saw no
    mention of this either. Anyone have a concrete example, or is this
    another urban myth??
    
    As far as the original question goes, an additional room or bath would
    probably show up if a complete assessment was done (interior - many 
    assessments are drivebys). I would think whether or not somehow that
    got back to the building inspector would depend on a lot of factors
    (size of town, relations between assessors office and bldg. inspector,
    etc.) I doubt if remodling projects would trigger anything, even if
    the remodling required re-wiring, plumbing, etc.  The only actual cases
    I have really seen along this line is when structures have been added
    and dont conform to zoning (shed, pool, additional room too close to
    property lines). Some of these have been pretty hard line, i.e. remove
    it. Probabaly most other permit disputes could be worked out without
    too much hassle, expecailly if you were the new owner and the non
    permit work was done before you arrived.  Just my 2 cents....

If I were an insurance company, and a home burned to the ground due to faulty
wiring which was done by Mr. Fix It and was never properly inspected, I would
certainly NOT cover the loss!  That's why we have laws that say you have to have
certain things inspected by a professional.

Just my opinion

Rob

>certainly NOT cover the loss!  That's why we have laws that say you have to have
>certain things inspected by a professional.

	    That and the fact that revenues are earned by the issuing of 
	permits.  And the fact that you will most likely have to hire an 
	electrician or a plumber, etc., to perform the work at >$25.00 an
	hour, plus their marked up cost of materials.  
	    I smell a rat-hole... so I'll stop.

					tim