Conference 7.286::home_work

    What ever your plans are for the future make sure you use a bigger
    conduit than you think you'll need.  I just ran into a problem today
    with trying to get two wires through a conduit, I should have gone
    bigger to begin with.
    	As far as code you'll have to talk to your local electrical
    inspector, each town has there own code requirements.  I know that
    when running UF romex you should be at least 12 inches under ground
    up to 20amps  above 20 amps you should be 24 inches, but these are
    requirements for laying bare wire I don't know if they apply to
    conduit.  
    
    
    
    				Guido
    	

    I think you would be better off running separate pipes for your
    electrical and water pipes. The kind of pipe to use would depend
    on the depth your running your cross over pipes. If your will make
    your run fairly close to the surface of the driveway, I'd recommend
    that you use cast iron but, if your going to be a couple of feet
    below the driveway surface you could use PVC. If you use PVC, I'd
    pay the little extra and get at least a schedule 40 rating.
     Don't skimp on the diameters either. Use 3 or 4" so you'll have
    plenty of passage room. It's alot harder to do it a second time
    if you should need the room later.                    

If you're going to put water pipes through there, make sure it's at least 4 
feet down unless you have some way of draining the pipe, otherwise the pipes 
will burst the first winter.

Paul

I'll admit to having never used PVC, but I am a big fan of the flexible stuff.
It all started when I was digging a ditch to put in PVC and hit a boulder!  
Didn't know what to do until someone suggested the flexible stuff.  I think its
got the same strenght, and it only costs a little more (about 40-50 cents a 
foot).  However, you can get it in lengths up to 250 feet!

Now, you're completely free of dealing with joints and forcing yourself to think
in straight lines.

-mark

    Re .2   Why would it be better off running two separate pipes?
    		One for electric and one to place another PVC pipe inside
    		it that contains water?
    
    	How much does PVC pipe cost?
    
    -al

    Some building codes prohibit the running of water lines and power
    lines in the same pipe. I guess water and electricity don't mix
    well.
    

    I have a problem with gunite (concrete) that has plugged up an
    electrical conduit running from my pool light fixture.  Here's the 
    picture...
                                                       
                                                       
    		! !                                    
    		! !      _________________________                         
    		! !     !_________________________! <-----concrete deck
    		! !                           !   !                    
    		! !________________________   !   !~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
    conduit--->	!________________________  !  ! g !                          
                                         ! !  ! u !     ~        
    					 ! !  ! n !      ~   ~  
                                         !*!  ! i !            ~   ~ 
    					 !*!  ! t !        WATER ~   
    					 !*!  ! e /     ~        
    		Plugged Here ----------->!*!__!__/              ~
    				     	 !***      <---light housing
    					 !_______           ~     ~
    					      !  \                 
                                              !   \     ~         ~ 
                                              !   !
    					      !   ! 
    
    
    We've tried pouring muriatic acid down the conduit for a couple
    of weeks, then forcing with a wire snake with no luck.  Tomorrow
    they will go into the pool with diving equipment and try to free
    it from the inside.  They (pool contractors) don't seem to have
    any special equipment like an electric rotor-rooter type of drill.
    My plan is to try Roto-Rooter if they can't free it.  Any other
    ideas??  Thanks.
    
    

    When i was a apprentice electrician, I installed several pool lights.
    We used water tight connections on the conduit as well as a epoxy
    mixture that was m,ade by 3M company that you mixed two tubes together
    and injected into the conduit.
    
    You might try replacing the lights with low voltage lights or abandon
    the lights and use overhead lights. 
    
    The muratic acid is still in the conduit and may cause you headachs
    later!
    
    /cal hoe

    Don't quite understand.  Are you saying that even if the gunite
    is removed the conduit will be unusable?  The electrician that was
    at the site said to call him back once they got the gunite out.

    
    The light fixture being installed is probably a watertight, sealed
    unit hardwired to a length of wire approx. 10-20ft long.  The
    electrical connections are made X ft from the pool.  Not sure of
    the exact distance to code.  Anyway.....
    
    Good luck getting the Gunite out....When my pool was built, the
    installers stuffed the turbo lines and light area with newspaper
    to avoid filling with cement.   Let us know how you get it out,
    I'd be interested to find out.  BTW, whatever is left of the acid
    should me rinsed out to be on the safe side....that stuff is very
    corrosive.
    
    ed.
    

	I live in the So. NH  (Nashua) area and need to know where to get
	the best price(s) for the following:

	o  5 GFI outlets
	o  1 100 AMP lighting panel
		10 or 12 circuit panel
	o  1 box 12-2 wire with ground
	o  1 box 14-2 "              "
	o  5 double boxes
	o  25 single boxes
	o  7 octagonal boxes

	Plus several lighting fixtures


	Txs in advance 


	Chuck

    
    
    	Mass Gas and Electric Supply in Nashua
    	2 Otterson St.
    	880-8200

    We've had good luck at Ralph Pill on Lake St in Nashua....
    
    	Stan

    Well, the problem is now fixed.  They had to dig under the concrete
    deck from aside of it, about four feet in and three feet down to get to
    the back of the conduit.  They then cut the conduit (having to plug
    the light fixture in the pool first), attach a new conduit and re-route
    it to the junction box.  The whole process took about 16 hours over
    two days.  
    
    Before the decision to dig, I called Roto Rooter myself and they
    said they had no electrical drill snake that would fit into a one-inch
    electrical conduit.  All their snake drills would only fit in something
    like a two or three inch hole minimum.  Even if they did, they weren't
    sure if the drill would cut through concrete.
    
    Lesson:  If you have a plugged conduit, insist that the problem
    get resolved before the next step in the construction.  Once you
    bury the pipe, the problem is magnified X-fold.
    

I highly recommend A&J Electrical Supply, Maple St., Nashua.  They give a 
discount to DEC employees, are friendly and helpful(i.e. they don't laugh when
you ask a "non-contractor" type question), and they are competetively priced.

Mark Parenti

BTW - A&J was recommended elsewhere in this file and mentioned that they give
	DEC discounts.  When I went in there and mentioned I had heard of them
	at work, the owner's reply was "You guys have some sort of computer
	bulletin board, don't you ...".  The legend of HOME_WORK spreads ...

    M&M Electric Supply, Lowell St. Nashua.
    
    A classic electrical supply place.  They do laugh at you if you
    don't sound like a contractor and are not helpful at all.
    
    However, they will sell retail and the prices are very low.
    

    M&M also cut the price when I had a $200 purchase for rental property.
    
    -Bob

    re: plugged conduit solution
    
    Just to be nosey, who paid for the repair.
    
    -joet

    My understanding was that MG&E and Ralph Pill charge contractor
    prices for everybody.  It may be just close to that price since
    MG&E will knock another 10% off if you 'buy your whole house'
    from them.  I bought from Ralph Pill when I was building.  They
    didn't seem to mind 'amateur' questions and usually did suggest
    other ways of doing what I intended.  'Contractor price' seemed
    to be about 60% to 50% of retail (i.e. a discount of 40 to 50%).

    The builder did the repair no charge.  The pool was just installed
    but they weren't able to install the pool light because of the problem.
    There was never any question as to who was responsible.  The problem
    was I didn't care for their recommended solutions.  I ended up going
    with their solution in the end because there didn't seem to be any
    others.

    I want to run a wire from my walk-out basement, under a yet-to-be built
    concrete patio, to a yard outlet.  I want to run conduit, rather
    than just UF wire, so that I can repair or move the yard outlet in the
    future.
    
    .0 asked a similar question, but I need some specific answers:
    
      1)  What kind of conduit can I use going through/under a cement
          foundation?
    
      2)  ... under a concrete patio?
    
      3)  ... from the basement floor to the wood frame (about 4 feet)?
    
      4)  Can I use the "flexible PVC conduit" mentioned in .2 for all of this?
    
      5)  Can I use the black plastic pipe (in 1" or 1.25" size) instead
    	  of "official" electrical conduit?
    
      6)  Can I terminate the conduit underground (after the patio),
          with just a clamp on the end, and continue with the UF cable
    	  from there?
    
      7)  Can I run low-voltage wiring in the same conduit?
    
      8)  How many 12/2+ground UF cables can you fit in ordinary conduit,
    	  such as the flexible PVC stuff?  I only have plans for one
    	  yard circuit, but I may want more later.  If it's only 1, is
    	  there conduit that can take 2 or more?
    
    Thanks!!
                     --tom

    The size of the conduit determines how many wires you can run, from two
    viewpoints.  Physically, you can only stuff so much wire in a given
    diameter pipe.  Secondly, the NEC specifies that a given diameter pipe
    can only support so much wire and still be within code limits.  
    
    Most libraries should have a copy of the NEC that you can review.  Not
    always the easiest book to get quick answers from unless you are
    familar with it.  
    
    I would suggest that you guestimate the max. number of circuits you
    would want to run, now and in the future.  Determine the diameter of
    pipe required to support that amount of wiring.  Price the conduit. 
    Determine if you really need that much growth room and buy accordingly.
    

re.7
You might check your local code but in colorado low voltage lines have to be
in a seperate conduit it can however be buried in the same ditch.

-j

    How about using 12/3 w ground. Is would give you the option to expand
    later from the exterior junction box. The 12/3 cost twice that of 12/2 
    but it's the room pipe you'll save. Can 2 GFI circuits run on 12/3
    wire???? ( I think I don't know)
    Go with the schedule 40 (plastic electrical conduit) You'll have trouble
    getting couplings and special purpose fitting for the black plastic
    stuff.
    I'd terminated the conduit at the exterior junction box with a 90
    degree bend and a plastic to male connector. I'm more paranoid about 
    exposed above grade wires the about direct burial wire.
    I believe legally,the low voltage cable gets it's own conduit. But
    there is direct burial phone cable( it has 6 or 8 conductors and it's free
    from some Phone repair depots.

     /Jim

> ... Can 2 GFI circuits run on 12/3 wire???? ( I think I don't know)
      
      I'm  pretty sure the answer to the question as asked is "No".  But
      you can get a two-pole GFI breaker and  have  a  single  240v  GFI
      protected circuit, which you can split into two 120V circuits. One
      side (120v) could be a switched light and the other an  unswitched
      outlet.   Or  you  could  run each of the sides through a separate
      switch. 

> ... Can 2 GFI circuits run on 12/3 wire???? ( I think I don't know)
      
>      I'm  pretty sure the answer to the question as asked is "No".  But

And I think the reason is that the neutral has to be separate for each GFI
breaker and using the common neutral in a 12 or 14/3 would not cut it.

bjm

> ... Can 2 GFI circuits run on 12/3 wire???? ( I think I don't know)
      
   Yes, if you run the 2nd one off the "load" terminals of the 1st one.

   Otherwise, I'm not sure, although I don't see why not.

   

    Howdy.  I need a little help interpreting an electrical code.
    
    I've got a run a circuit in metal flex conduit where the point-to-point
    span is about two feet.  The National Electrical Code states that flex
    conduit "shall be secured by an approved means at intervals not
    exceeding 4� feet and within 12 inches on each side of every outlet
    box, junction box, cabinet or fitting".
    
    It's a silly question, but would the usual mechanical connector
    typically use to connect conduits of this type to boxes etc be
    considered appropriate support, or does there need to be support in
    addition to this?
    
    Thanks!
    
    /john

    
    	John,

    	The answer to your question is NO. The connectors that are used to
    enter a box, are connectors. The securing means would be approved clips
    or staples.

    	One question, why are you using flex??

    				CB

    Flex seemed like the simplest solution.  To be specific, I'm wiring an
    oil-fired water tank (to the boiler, 20 inches away).  In addition to
    running the power into the tank, I need to run power to the circulator
    which is a few inches from the tank.  Since dual flex connectors are
    readily available, it seemd like the obvious solution.  If I were to
    use EMT for the connection from boiler to tank, I would somehow have to
    rig a flex connection from the tank to the circulator.  I could not
    find a simple solution for this.
    
    Suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    /john

    John,

    	I think I have a pretty good idea of what your doing. If I am wrong
    let me know. It sounds like you want to power a new oil fired water
    tank. I also get the impression that you want to power it from the
    existing boiler. I would not suggest this. First of all, you will be
    required to install a "firomatic" above the "gun" of the water heater.
    You will not be covered by the one over the boiler, since it is 20"
    away. These should be mounted DIRECTLY over the gun. You will also have
    to have a disconnect switch (service switch) mounted on the unit, (or in
    close proximity). This switch will have to kill the burner AND
    associated pumps. To use the one off of the boiler would not be
    sensible, since one would have to shut both units down in order to work
    on the other. The last concern, witch would be a judgment call for the 
    fire dept. (fire prevention), is whether or not they will require an
    additional emergency off switch, usually mounted on the other side of
    the fire wall. They may allow you to use the existing emergency off
    switch for both, in fact it makes more sense to be able to shut them
    both off with only one switch in case of an emergency. 

    		If the above is accurate, you will want to come out of the
    existing box (over the boiler), and take your power from the load side
    of the emergency off switch. Bring that to the box that the "firomatic"
    will be mounted to. Install a firomatic in that box, and come out of it
    with conduit to your service switch, (this is the one mounted on the
    unit itself). From there you will go flex (greenfield) to the
    controller. The controller should already be mounted on the unit. From
    the controller, you will flex to the circulator pump.

    		I hope that the information that I gave you is applicable to
    your situation.

    			Cary

        This looks like the best place to ask without starting a new
        topic, so...
        
        Before having our driveway, sidewalk, landscaping, etc. installed
        I ran wires, tubes, etc. all over the place to allow for future
        projects. Almost. My wife wants to put low voltage lighting along
        our new sidewalk. The problem is that she wants one light on "the
        other side" in the flower bed. Guess what? I didn't leave a way to
        get there. Any ideas on how to get a piece of wire under the walk
        (6' wide where I want to cross, but only 4' wide later) without
        trashing my brand new walk?

    Not sure how they did it, but the lawn sprinkler people put their hoses
    _under_ the walks in our apartment complex.  I suspect you could
    either:
    
    1)	Dig under it by hand from either end.
    
    2)	Use a hose to tunnel under it, maybe with a straight sprayer on the
    end to enhance the cutting action, or maybe use a pipe to keep the hose
    straight.
    
    Either way, I'd do it at the 4-foot-wide section, place a conduit and
    pack the dirt back in firmly so as not to undermine the walk.
    
    Willie

>    Not sure how they did it, but the lawn sprinkler people put their hoses
>    _under_ the walks in our apartment complex.  I suspect you could
>    either:
>    
>    1)	Dig under it by hand from either end.
>    2)	Use a hose to tunnel under it, maybe with a straight sprayer on the
>    end to enhance the cutting action, or maybe use a pipe to keep the hose
>    straight.
>    
>    Either way, I'd do it at the 4-foot-wide section, place a conduit and
>    pack the dirt back in firmly so as not to undermine the walk.
    
     The problem with tunnelling and repacking is that you'll never manage 
to get all the dirt back in the hole.

     The 'right' way to do this is to drive a pipe under the concrete [or 
road].  This requires digging a hole on one side long enough to hold the
pipe and the driving mechanism and another one on the other side thats 
wide enough to find where the pipe comes out on the other side.  Much 
easier to do with a backhoe than by hand!!

    I believe the standard approach is to:
    
    	1) Dig down alondside the walk
    
    	2) Take a piece of pipe (plastic or iron)
    
    	3) Put hose inside and press against soil
    
    	4) as hose washes away dirt force the pipe forward until you
    	   reach the other side
    
    	5) bend around the rocks ;-)
    
    Stan

    
    
    ....Have you tried running a wire out of the house in another 
    place on the other side of the walk????
    
    The pipe andthe water trick dosnt work to bad.  Just make sure
    you have a place for the water to go......
    
    Good luck
    JD

The problem with the water method, as alluded to earlier, is that it washes 
away more dirt than you need, and as it's difficult to repack, you run the
chance of undermining the walk's support.

			Steve

        If I run the wire out where I planned, I have to drill thru 10" of
        concrete foundation. If I run to the flower bed, I have to dig
        thru 2 10" walls, plus a 4' gravel filled area that is our front
        porch. Just not possible. I'll try the tube and hammer routine
        first. If that doesn't work, I'll have to try the water pressure.

I've never tried this, but I have a suggestion that might prevent too much
soil from being washed out by providing a plastic channel for the dirt and 
water to escape the hole.

What if you placed a larger "conduit" made of say 2" PVC pipe up to the dirt,
then used a smaller pipe, say 1/2-3/4" inside to wash away the soil.  As the
soil comes out of the PVC, you slide it in further.  The end result should be
a permanently buried conduit under the walk, with minimal loss around the 
outside of the conduit.  Of course this would not work to well if the walk was
wide enough to require working from both sides to the middle.

Comments?  Would it work?

    
    re .14: How is the walkway constructed?
    

        It's brick over a crushed limestone base. Under that is dirt/clay.
        I'm hesitant to do anyhting that might disturb the bricks,
        including lifting some of them out to set the wire just under the
        bricks. They are so tightly packed, that IF I can get them out,
        I'll never get them back in!

    
    1.	Dig a hole alongside the drive/walkway about 1' square.
    
    2.	Construct an uncovered box from 1/2" plywood which will fit
    	into the hole from step 1 above. Cut a piece of pegboard to
    	act as a cover for the box.
    
    3.	Using a suitable power tool, cut a hole into one side of the
    	box, about 3" diameter.
    
    4.	Place the box into the hole in the ground, such that the cutout
    	is facing the drive/walkway.
    
    5.	Go to your local pet store and buy a gopher. Place the gopher into
    	the box in the ground, and place the pegboard cover over the box.
    	Make sure you tie a leash around the gopher's neck (preferably
    	using a "choker" style collar as used on many dogs).
    
    6.	After a day or two, the gopher will have discovered the cutout in
    	the box and will have burrowed its way under the drive/walkway.
    	When the gopher surfaces on the other side grab the leash and then
    	dispose of the gopher in a humane manner.
    
    7.	You can place the conduit in the tunnel the gopher dug.
    
    	This technique can also be used to run tubing for an inground
    	sprinkler system. Just let the gopher loose for a week or two
    	and you will find plenty of openings for the sprinkler heads
    	to be installed. Make sure you use a really long leash for this.
    
    
    Frank
    :-)
    

    Dunno about a gopher, but the gas company up here uses a device
    they call a weasel to do just this kind of thing.  A friend of
    ours had a gas line put in and this device dug a hole about 2 feet
    under for nearly 50' and was within 6" of the correct destination!
    Impressive !
    
    Stuart

You could hire some baby sandhogs.

    
    re .23: 
    
    Given all the other suggestions, and roughly estimating the energy
    expenditure involved, I think I would still consider lifting a row of
    bricks. Perhaps just try to lift/reset one as proof-of-concept.
    
    Failing that, I would look my wife straight in her liquid blue eyes and
    say, "You can't get there from here."
    

    Everyone has overlooked the simple solution...
    
    Why not use the handy air shredder underwalkwayconduitholeblaster
    attachment and spend the time saved mastering the new radio
    controled leafsweeper?
    Rumor has has it, Spags, based on increasing consumer demand will
    stock both items this coming spring be sure to shop early as supplys
    are expected to be limited.
    
    8^)
    
    -j

    
    I saw the exact problem dealt with by using a long piece of 
    steel rod (the kind used to reinforce cement).  Just dig a 
    hole on both sides of the walk, put the rod into one side and
    hammer it til it sticks out the other side.  Attach a string
    to the hammer end, and pull the rod through the other side.  Use
    the string to pull your wire through.  
    
    The whole thing took about 20 minutes, with the only tricky part 
    being the string and pulling the rod from the other side without
    benefit of the hammer.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Ken
    

        Saturday I pounded a 1/2" conduit under the walk. It was much
        easier than I expected. I dug a 18" hole on the exit end, but only
        ended up about 3-4" down over a 6' run.

    I tried the gopher, but to cut down on steps I used the wire as a leash.
    I'm on my third 250' roll and he hasn't surfaced yet.

    What do I do now?

    Pull out 750' of wire and scold him severely.
    
    Edd

    Put an attractive young lady gopher�, about where you want it to come
    out. 
    
    
    � Don't ask me, all gophers look the same to me...
    
    q
    :-)
    

    plant a fresh new patch of grass in the exact location that you want him
    to come up
    
    ed

    
    
    apply power.  That should get his attention!  
    

    
    (Ohhh, I get it. You're all working on a "Home Improvement" script!)
    

I'm thinking of running a conduit out to a proposed shed.  The conduit would 
carry 2 cables.  The first to bring power out to the shed for a light and 
outlet.  The second would be to bring power from our generator (that would 
finally move out of our basement) back to the electrical panel.  This second 
cable is pretty hefty, as it carries 240v with enough current to run the 
furnace, well pump, freezer, fridge, etc.)

A couple of questions:

1 Can I do this in 1 conduit?  Or does the code require 2?  Or can I get some 
  special wire that does not need conduit?

2 It would be lots easier for me to run the conduit up the side of the house,
  and thru wood, rather than drill thru the foundation.  Is it up to me?  Or 
  does the code get fussy about this, too.  Also are there things I have to 
  worry about, like water thru the foundation versus providing termite hiways
  into the wood?

						-JP

>>1 Can I do this in 1 conduit?  Or does the code require 2?  Or can I get some 
>>  special wire that does not need conduit?

I think there is a code against using the same conduit for this - I forget why
but I think it was mentioned to me once.  I would recommend using two anyway.
Use schedule 40 PVC not conduit.  The only drawback is you need to run the
ground wire inside the pipe instead of letting the metal conduit take care of
it for you.

>>2 It would be lots easier for me to run the conduit up the side of the house,
>>  and thru wood, rather than drill thru the foundation.  Is it up to me?  Or 
>>  does the code get fussy about this, too.  Also are there things I have to 
>>  worry about, like water thru the foundation versus providing termite hiways
>>  into the wood?

This is the only way to go.  Use 90� sweeps and LB (left bend) devices to bring
the PVC up the side of the house and then through the wall.

No its not up to you in some cases.  As your town inspector.  They are usually
very helpful as long as you don't go in with an attitude.

The size of the cable running back will have to be sized on the output of the
generator.  You will need disconnects along the line also.

Brian J.