Conference 7.286::home_work

Be sure that you go with him through every nook and cranny of the house. I had
my current house inspected by ASTRA and they missed that the cellar walls
oozed water when there is a torrential rainstorm of 2-3 days (which doesn't
happen very often). Make sure you ask questions, because like Bill Cosby says
on the E.F. Hutton commercial....It's my money.


							Robert

Helpful hint: Bring a small level with you and put it on the main beam in the
house, because if that is not level...Nothing is level. Also bring a marble
or other small hard ball put it on the high side of a floor you think is not
level. This is a very dramatic technique that drives realtors crazy.

    ...I absolutely LOVE the idea of the marble!  Just the thing to
    make a realtor think about getting an honest job.
    
    Steve

   I 've had one other old house (ca. 1900) that was not inspected.
    The 'superficial' defects were obvious (Old furnace, needed
    roofing, yard was a mess (gone wild), interior not done in 20 years.
    
    I had a house in Baldwinville inspected, and the inspector pointed
    out the potential leakage problems where the lower kitchen roof
    joined the  main house, non_standard cab's in kitchen, non_code
    wiring, non_code plumbing, evidence of a 'torch' used on plastic
    pipes, bad sills (approx. 60% support left) .. not critical,
    but  would need replacing, what's under the plastic sheathing (could
    be dry rot, hidden structural damage, hidden fire damage, etc.)
    
    Foundation cracks needed repairs (minor), wood chimney could
    be 'refaced', but not necessary, roof condition, leaks (the current
    owner used the cellar for drying wood .. nice sign of a dry cellar),
    
    Ask questions about anything you are not 100% certain about, including
    estimates/time to repair. FOr some states, how much Lead Paint is
    used in interior (if you have a young child .. under 5 I think)
    that need to be REMOVED or covered.
    
    CHimney .. pLanning in a wood stove ? It might have to be relined
    at a cost of $900- 3500 depending on size. 
    
    There's lots of help in this file . just gotta take th etime to
    read, and take pointers to your library of WHAT to look up.
    
    There are mny books on HOW TO BUY AN OLD HOUSE, and on remodelling
    older homes (As well as restoration). Whether or not you want to
    restore/remofel is immaterial. THe dialogue shows WHAT is to be
    changed, why it is desireable for some to change it, and How to
    fix existing problems. Indirectly, it shows what to look for, if
    you DON'T want to remodel (shows by implication).
    
    [end]
    
    
     

Note 650.3 got me thinking about resale and inspections:
    
What inspections are required when one resells a house?
    
    For instance, if I live in one of the towns which requires a licensed
    electrician to do all wiring, and I do some wiring myself -- say
    a bunch of lights and electrical outlets in an unfinished basement
    -- what problems are likely when I go to sell my house. Let's assume
    that the job LOOKS professional, but there was no permit or
    inspections.
    
Any thoughts from those of you who "have gone before"?
    
    

    Evrything thing I have been told (including by my building inspector)
    says that unless the additional wiring is ENORMOUS, it will
    make NO DIFFERENCE who did it. As long as it is done in adherence
    to the local codes, no problem. I infact did my whole first
    floor, (Which I finished myself recently) and am very
    confident I will have no problems.
    
    (I do admit that my town is a little more lean on this type of
    thing...)
    
    M
    
    

    
    	I think in MA the only inspection required when you sell/buy
    a house is a certificate from the fire dept stating that there is
    a smoke detector on each floor and that it is in working order.
    All other items are buyer beware.  The plumbing for my kitchen sink
    was a real botch job.  It was a combination cast iron, lead, pvc
    line with tape wrapped around the joints.  When the plumbing inspector
    came to look at my new gas line he asked me if I was responsible
    for the mess.  I just told him it came with the house and he left
    it as that.  His only comment was that I really should get it fixed.
    	I know that if you do wiring without an inspection and it causes
    the house to burn down, the insurance company does not have to pay
    IF they can prove it was related to the uninspected wiring.  I wonder
    what happens if someone does uninspected wiring, sells their house
    and THEN it burns down?  Isn't their a clause in most sales contracts
    that state the the house is sold with no guarantees?
            
    					=Ralph=

re: required inspections

When I bought my house a year ago the only required inspection
was for fire detectors. If I had any children under 5 then there
would have been lead paint. If I remember correctly, the bank
required a statement of my acceptance of the septic system. If
the house had a well they would have required the water tested.
They tried to make me get it tested anyway but I refused to pay
for a test of town water. They gave up. Any other inspections
are subject to the requirements of a particular bank and their
impression of their risk involved in you buying the house with their
money. I have heard of a case where the bank wanted to see the 
inspection certificate on a gas hot water heater that was installed
10 years before the house went up for sale. Any other inspections
are usually spelled out in the purchase and sales agreement.

Bottom line, any work you do youself without getting inspected might
come back and get you when you go to sell the house IF the prospective
buyer and their bank for whatever reason feel it's necessary.

Bill

    Lately, some banks have been requesting septic system inspections
    and certification.  These are usually a real pain in the neck
    since you have to locate the lid, dig up the seller's lawn, and
    hold your breath.  And of course the seller is not very happy
    to end up with a ripped up lawn.  The certification must be
    made by a licensed septic company or home inspector for about
    $45.
    
    -al

    
    	Another inspection that may be required by the bank is one for
    a wood or coal stove.  Either the fire dept or building inspector,
    whomever is designated in that town, comes out to make sure it's
    properly installed, has the right amount of clearance on all sides,
    is on the right kind hearth, etc.
    
    	We don't have any children, so when we bought our house last
    year we didn't have to get a lead paint inspection, but we were
    required to sign a lead paint waiver...no suing the previous owner
    should we ever have little ones and they take to munching on the
    wood.
         
    	Conni
             

      The state of Mass gave me a surprise.  In California they require
    every house sold to have building permits for each room, plumbing,
    and electrical.  does not matter who does it, only that it has a
    permit for it.  If you assume the loan this does not apply untill
    the building inspector comes out for something else and then fines
    you for it.  I went to the local city hall and they had every plan
    and permit in a file.
       Lo and behold I go to the local city hall in Mass and they say
    what file??   Now I know how I got a house that has no sill in places
    and some things have no support.

>      The state of Mass gave me a surprise.  In California they require
>    every house sold to have building permits for each room, plumbing,
>    and electrical.  

Based on my (somewhat limited) experience, I would say that California 
is the exception, not the rule.  

Frank

    
    I Live in California, and am currently buying a house.  The house
    has a bathroom in the garage that we are not sure is original
    construction.  So we went to Sunnyvale City Hall to search out all
    permits for this particular house.  The only permit on record is
    the original building construction permit.  We then asked the City
    Inspector what happens if we requested an Inspection of this house
    we are about to buy.  He said that first of all the owner has to
    request the inspection and if everything passes (Electrical,
    Mechanical, Plumbing) then an Occupancy Permit will be issued. 
    However one can not only request an Electrical Inspection unless
    one is doing major Electrical work.  Sunnyvale is very insistent
    on Inspecting every house in Sunnyvale eventually.
    
    So we asked our realator if we could get the sellers to request
    a City Inspection -- at our expense.  The seller said ABSOLUTELY
    NOT!  As it turns out if one gets the city involved it is a BIG
    headache.  If the city inspector finds anything NOT to code he can
    not issue the permit, require that the owner to bring the fault
    up to code, and charge a penalty fee.  The key here is that the
    owner HAS to fix the fault.  So we could back out of the sell and
    the owner is still required to fix it.
    
    This has resulted in a lot of houses in Sunnyvale that have a lot
    of work done (wiring, remodeling, plumbing, etc.) that do not have
    permits.  Once a change is made to a house without a permit it is
    unlikely that any future owners will call in a city inspector to
    inspect any new work done, because he will also inspect all work
    that does not appear to be original.  This could cost the owner
    alot of bucks and headaches.
    
    Fortuneately our bathroom seems to be to code (says a liscensed
    property inspector) and the rest of the house is fairly virgin.
    When we do some major electrical work on it we will call in the
    city inspector and try to get the Occupancy Permit.  Having this
    piece of paper will help us to assure any future buyers and protect
    us from law suits in case anything goes wrong.
    
    Hope this was informative.  That's how it is in California (Sunnyvale
    anyway).  I think that for safty's sake it is important that any
    work done should meet current building codes, whether a permit is
    issued on the work or not.  Having the permit certainly helps when
    one goes to re-sell the house in the furture.  It would have made
    us as buyers feel alot better about buying the house.
    
    -Gina
    

Since I'm shortly to have one myself, I've been reading with interest 
all the various notes on home inspections.  I though it would be 
useful to collect in one note:  "What to make sure the home inspector 
checks":  Things like

Real # of amps of electrical service (not just the panel label)?
Defective humidifer rusting furnace?


etc - any thoughts on "what my home inspector checked and I wouldn't 
have though of but I'm glad he did".   My feeling is that even the 
best inspector can have an off day, but if I can make sure he looks at 
everything, I'm more likely to not have any surprises later.

	When I sold a house a few years ago, the buyers' bank's inspector
	operated the dishwasher, so you might ask whether yours will test
	the appliances.

	You might also have him note the ages of the house's machinery.
	Second-hand appliances, furnaces, pumps, etc., can be installed
	in new or newly renovated houses.

	Also in your long checklist, see about including a note on who
	did the wiring, plumbing, and significant improvements.  Probe
	for code violations.

	Get a statement on how much water accumulates or passes through
	the basement at various times of the year.

    
    	Follow him around to keep him honest.  It is also a good way
    to learn about your house.  Bring in a friend who knows about houses
    and let him snoop around.  The more people looking, the better.
    	Another good idea is to go to the town hall and research the
    building permits.  If you see new work with no permits taken out,
    look very carefully at that area.
                                                =Ralph=                

    I learned a lot about my house at the time of the inspection, so
    I agree that you should walk around with the inspector.  He missed
    only minor things during the inspection, but one that wasn't so
    minor was this:
    
      o Check all baseboard heaters (or other types) to make sure
        that they are in working order.  
    
    He turned on the heat to make sure it went on, but didn't go
    around and feel the baseboard heaters to make sure they work.  
    One of them didn't.
    
    -- Jim
    
    P.S.  Do you need a "list of things to check"?  I still have mine
    and can make a copy for you ... What one person typically checks 
    might not be what everybody checks.  Mine tested at least two
    outlets in every room and all appliances, for example.

Make sure when the inspector checks the septic system (if applicable) that he 
verifies not only that the water goes down the drains but also that the water 
goes into the holding tank (he'll need to locate the cap and remove it to do 
this).

My experience was that during some recent remodeling, my contractor found that 
the pipe from the house to the tank was cracked, so he replaced it. A month 
later I found my leach field was dead and probably had been for quite a 
while. The waste was never making it to the tank in the first place, so it 
looked as though everything was fine until that pipe was replaced. 

Not only did I have to replace the leach bed, but I also had to relocate the 
entire system to the other side of the house to comply with new regulations 
that had not been in effect at the time the original system had been built.


							- craig

    
    .2 made a very good point!  Do go do a search yourself on any permits
    that may exist for your house.  (Or may not exist!)  The house we
    are buying has a 1/2 bath in the garage.  We thought what an odd
    place to put a 1/2 bath!  The seller told us that the bathroom was
    part of the original building plan.  We were skeptical.  When we looked 
    for the permits for the bathroom there weren't any.  The bank also had 
    a problem with this bathroom not having permits.  We finally located
    the original owner who confirmed that the bathroom was part of the
    original house and we asked them to write a letter stating that
    fact.  The property inspector found nothing wrong with the bathroom
    and felt that it would meet the building codes, but he was not sure
    about whether it was original or not either.
    
    We had a very competent building inspector.  It helps if you are
    able to go through the house yourself before he comes and point
    out to him things that you may be concerned with.  Then follow him
    around the house and get into all those nooks and cracks with him
    ask any questions you might have.  It is one of the most educational
    things you will ever do.  We were alerted to a couple things by
    our inspector such as aesbestos insulation wrapped around the heating
    duct work, a crack combustion chamber in the gas furnace (the seller
    has since replaced the furnace), some existing electrical code
    violations.  
    
    The next thing to remember is to CAREFULLY read the report when
    you get it.  That report (at least in California) is used legally to
    alert the seller to anything he may have to correct before the sell
    can take place.  There were some discrepancies between what the
    inspector TOLD us and what was IN THE REPORT.  We had the inspector
    come to the house again and either clarify with us the discrepancy
    or change the report.  After all it is your $200!
    
    If you send me mail I can send you a very good check list of things
    to look for and at before you buy a house.  We got it from a book
    written by a professional building inspector.  It is one of the
    most complete check lists we have seen yet.  But it is still only
    a guideline.  
    
    Hope this helps....
    
    -Gina

    Before having the house inspected, inform the owners so that they can
    be sure that everything is accessable.  When I bought my house, the
    water heater was inaccessable (behind some panelling) so the inspector
    couldn't see it.  Guess what I had to replace a couple of months
    later.   You also want to be sure that it's easy to get to the
    attic.  Emptying a closet of other people's stuff isn't fun.
    
    Be sure he inspects all windows and doors for possible water entry
    and rot.                                                    
    
                                                August G. Reinig

    We're buying a brand new home, and we are going to have the "final
    walk-through" inspection in a few days.  I have read several notes in
    REAL_ESTATE and HOME_WORK on house inspections, but I haven't read
    anything about inspecting a brand new house.  Many of the problems I've
    read about (asbestos, old appliances, insect damage, etc.) don't apply
    to a new house.  Some of them do apply. I'd like to get a list of
    things to do when inspecting a new house. So far I have: 
    
    	Test all electrical outlets
    	Turn on the heat and test all baseboards
    	Turn on all the water at the same time
    	Test all the appliances
    	Look for unfinished finish-work

    Any other suggestions?
    
    Marc    

    Posted to HOME_WORK and REAL_ESTATE.
    

    Look a little harder because there is a note on this with several
    good replies, and the author of the note compiled a list as one
    of the last replies!  Very good info.  
    
    I recently bought a new home I would strongly suggest to have your
    walk-through a week before closing.  Write everything down, type
    it out, and give a copy to the builder the next morning, or else
    write it all down twice and give him the copy immediately, but still
    formally document it.  Hopefully, he'll get it all done before you
    move in.  In my case, everything was rushed so we could close in
    time and we moved in before some things were done.  It's been 6
    weeks, and most still aren't done.  I've heard this from others
    too, and not just my builder.  It happens a lot.  I swear that once
    they get their money, you've become low priority.  Good luck!

    If its not too late, ask to have some of the money held aside in
    a bank account which doesn't go to the builder untill you have all
    of the items on you list completed.
    
    signed 
    person-who-still-has-a-long-list-after-10-months-and-is-taking-builder
    to-court!!
    

    re: .2
    
      I agree 100%.  I didn't buy a 'new' house but there were things
    on the P&S that were agreed to but not done by closing.  My lawyer
    withheld some of the money to ensure that these things would get
    taken care of and sure enough, they did.  Quickly I might add.
    
    -Jim
    

    Hold as much money back as possible!
    (And specify that if the work is not done by dd-mmm-yy that you get
     the money back...)
    We only had 2K withheld, and it still took almost 10 months to get
    work done.  I would have rather taken the money and paid a contractor
    to finish the work.
    P.S.  Even if you think you have identified all the unfinished work,
    some more will pop-up later.
    Good luck,

    
    	We bought a new home last July.  You have a good list so far,
    	 but I have a few suggestions on things to look for:
    
   	1) Besides checking all electrcal outlets to make sure they
    	    work, also check to make sure they are secured to the walls
    	    well.  We have a few that are very loose.
    
    	2) Check that all electric lights/appliances work!
    
    	3) If your house has a washer/dryer with it, (ours did), make
    	    sure they are connected and ready to go.  I had to hook
    	    up the hoses etc. myself.
    
    	4) Make sure all appliances include manuals.
    
    	5) Check the grounds thoroughly!  We have found a LOT of trash
    	    buried just beneath the surface. (i.e. hood from a pick-up
    	    truck, an old tire/rim, barbed wire, etc.)  We're currently
    	    trying to get the builder to clean it all out of there.
    
    	6) Open and close/lock all doors to make sure they function
    	    properly.
    
    	7) Any shrubs/plants on property should look healthy, not
    	    brown.
    
    	8) After we moved in, we found cigarette butts in closets,
    	    cupboards, etc.  Check for these.
    
    	That's about all I can think of for now.  Will post more later
    	 as I recall them.
    
    
    					-Rich
    
    p.s. - Just out of curiousity, who's your builder??

    re: .5
    
    	The builder is Roddy Palmer.  He seems to have a very good
    reputation from everyone we've spoken with.  So far the house seems
    to be well-constructed, and all of his sub-contracters (lighting,
    flooring) know their business very well.
    
    Thanks to all for your suggestions.  The "walk-thru" is tonite,
    and I'll have my check-list handy...
    
    Marc

    

    
    	One other thing to look for:  Make sure all the windows work
    	 properly.  We've got a few that won't stay open. (So who thought
    	 of checking windows? It was 100� on the day we closed. It was
    	 a/c all the way...) :-)
    
    	Good luck!
    
    
    					-Rich

Remember to keep your head during a walk-through inspection.  Usually 
the walk-through is a time of "gentleman's agreement."  It's a rare 
purchase and sales agreement that gives you much muscle in a 
walk-through.  

You and the builder make agreements on items that you could take them to
small claims court on anyway.  Your only bargaining chips at that point
are usually small claims court (of less value than you might think) and
refusing to close.  Items like outlets, light fixtures or appliances
that don't work are big and they know they'll have to fix them for anyone,
so they might as well fix them for you and save finding a new buyer.

Items like cigarette butts, appliance manuals, general clutter, etc. are
not big items. Will you really refuse to close over cigarette butts in
the corners? That sort of thing will degenerate into a contest of wills,
and I've seen closings go down over things like that, but who is the
winner?  You lose your deposits.  The builder has a house on their hands
(it can probably be sold for more now that the amount agreed on before
it was built but the delay hurts.) 

I'm not saying don't ask for the manuals, or don't ask if they'll clean up 
if you think the place is dirty.  Just don't get your back up or try to 
make it more important to yourself than it really is.  Remember, you're 
(assumedly) going to live there for a long time.  You're going to have
to sweep the floors or wash the windows at least once before you sell
the place anyway, and being easy going on small items generates the good
will that makes sure the big items (if there are any) get attended to
properly and promptly.  

And don't be afraid to go through the place and admit the guy did a good 
job.  And if they did a good job, say so.  It's amazing the amount of 
good will such a thing generates.  A builder who does good work is very 
proud of it, and a little recognition makes them real happy, and costs 
you nothing.  
						>>>==>PStJTT

    We recently bought a newly built home and had pretty good luck with
    everything. Since the builder is also building a home on the
    neighborhood, he cannot afford to leave things unfinished. We did
    our "walk-thrus" from about a month before closing and questioned
    anything as soon as we saw it. This is the advantage of a newly
    built home because chances are you will be at the site very often.
    If your builder doesn't seem to have a good answer for you ask the
    name of the appripriate person. We had a problem with the shelves
    in some of our cabinets and called the cabinet crew directly and
    had all our questions answered completely and ended up satisfied.
    If there are a number of homes going up together, as ours was, you
    will find things like a shipment of screens all come in together
    because it is more cost effective for the builder to buy in bulk
    rather than one house at a time. We waited for 2 months for the
    screens on the living room but I wasn't about to postpone the closing
    over one room. If you can keep on top of the builder as they are
    actually building, you will be better off. Give him/her lists as
    you see things. Our builder loved getting the lists because he 
    now had a check list of things to do and could hand it off to one
    of his helpers. Stay on top of him from the beginning and you
    shouldn't have to many problems, you will avoid costly mistakes
    and the builder will know you are serious about the end result
    of the house.

     Structural Inspection Guaranteed?

I purchased a 3 year old ranch in Kingston, NH last month.
Before purchasing I had a structural inspection done which 
did not indicate any problems with plumbing or roof leaks.

My problem:
During the rain yesterday, in combination with my wife taking a 
shower, I noticed a small puddle of water on my basement floor.
looking up I found water seeping from the sub-floor that was 
exposed in the basement stair well.  About three feet from this
leak is the plumbing from the bathroom.  Using a flashlight I 
traced all the water and drain pipes and did not find any 
moisture.  The drain roof vent is also above this area.  Since my 
wife had just finished her shower I am not sure whether the 
problem is the bathroom or a leaking roof vent flange and will
check the outside of the roof after the rain stops.  My last 
resort is going into the attic since it has blown in insulation
piled well above the rafters and I could not see any moisture 
from the small attic opening.  

My real question is can I hold the inspection company, or 
previous owner, or original builder (don't know who he is) 
responsible for correcting the problem?  If so how should I 
proceed?  

-JFK- (a very discouraged new homeowner)

    your gonna spend more money chasing these folks to hold them 
    accountable for this leak, than it will cost to have fixed.
    why:: in the case of the original owner, you'll probalby have
    to prove they knew of the leak and lied about it. in the case
    of the builder, you'll probably to prove they used unacceptable
    building practices during construction, and knew a leak could
    occur. as for the inspector, if this is the only "real bad"
    thing that happens consider yourself lucky.
    to find the """responsible person""""  look in the mirror.
    it ain't worth pursuing,,,,  best spend the time on the phone
    and get someone to fix it. it may well be doing some damage
    you'll dearly regret.
    P.S. DON'T BOTHER READING THIS GET ON THE PHONE.
    JIM.

re: -.1
I guess I expected that answer.  It's just that it bothers me
that this is exactly why I hired the inspector in the first 
place.  As to "go to the phone" I thought this was primarily a
DIY notes file!  I am a little new at this but it appears to be
a good type of do it yourself project.  The hardest part will
be locating the source of the leak, yes?  Anyway I guess I will
have to struggle through the attic insulation and find the source
of the leak.  If I run into trouble expect to hear from me again
under the appropriate notes topic for a solution.

-JFK-

re: -.1

Must be contagious, but the same damned thing happened at my house this
weekend!  I noticed water on the floor of the basement and, after removing
some sheetrock from the ceiling to expose some of the plumbing from the
bathroom above, decided the shower must be leaking somehow.

But I'm stumped on _which_ aspect of the shower plumbing is leaking.  My view
of the mess is limited--I'm looking up at the tub from underneath. The tub
drain is definitely not leaking. The cold and hot water supply lines do not
seem to be wet, which leads me to believe the leak is downline of the faucets. 

The leak presents itself in the form of a steady drip over one of the corners
of the tub, as though water is pooling somewhere back there and dripping
down.

What sorts of plumbing connections are typically in place in a shower with
a bypass valve for the tub?  Where can/do leaks usually take place? 

-Brian

Re .7 - tub/shower leak

    You'll probably have to cut the wall in back of the tub/shower plumbing to
see any leak, let alone fix it.  Cut it in such a way that you can replace it
with a handy-dandy-just-a-few-sheet-rock-screws panel that can be removed again
at a later time, if necessary.  Future DIY owners of your house will love you!
'Course, if the plumbing can only be accessed through the middle of your
bedroom wall or living room wall  :-(  I just did a similar wall removal.  Mine
was, conveniently, under a stairway, in a cubby-hole kind of thing.
    If you cut a major hole like this:  1. you'll be able to see things better -
maybe the hole you have now just doesn't allow the right angle for your
flashlight view, and  2. you'll have plenty of room for your torch and solder -
a small hole just isn't enough for two hands, a head and probably shoulders. 

    	What if any legal contract exists when a home inspector certifies
    that a house is OK?  I had a friend who had a house pass inspection
    only to find out 6 months later that the sill plates were rotted
    and that it would cost $1500 to repair.  He took the inspector to
    small claims court and the initial judgment was in his favor for
    the tune of $1500.  However on appeal the award was reduced to
    $250, the amount he paid the inspector in the first place.
    	Home inspections are a good thing but you can't expect them
    to find every wart in two hours.  Some things like sills should
    be obvious but others can be real hard to find.  

   					=Ralph=

    Re: .7
    If I had to guess, I'd guess the water is leaking through the joint
    between the tub and the wall, and has nothing to do with the actual
    plumbing.  Do you have tile?  Check the grout between the tiles,
    and especially between the tub and tiles.  

    I had a similar problem in my house.  We have a shower stall in
    the master bedroom not a tub, after taking a shower the ceiling
    showed a wet spot.  After looking into the obvious i.e. leaking
    door, calking around the stall etc. I cut the ceiling in the stair
    well and found the leak to be coming from the DRAIN.  What was stuff
    up around the drain pipe was something that looked like steel wool
    pads that after years of use had corroded. I pulled the drain pipie
    out went to my local hardware store and fro ~$5.00 bought a rubber
    replacement installed it and no more leaks.  The had part came
    repairing the ceiling. 
    
    Don
     

    i'll be more than glad to help, if you diy. i may have over-
    stated the point, but you can't cout on the weather here.
    if the job requires opening the roof or whatever, you may 
    not be ableto open and close given nasty weather.
    
    jim

RE. .8  (cutting a hole in the wall to expose leaky shower plumbing)


Sounds gruesome, but I guess I have to do it, using the sheetrock panel
deal you suggested.

Problem is, the wall is a fairly conspicuous one.  What's the best way to
minimize the "repair damage" when I cut into the wall?

-What's the best tool to cut with (I have lath & plaster walls)?

-Will I need to cut from one stud to another to have something to screw
the sheetrock panel into?

-Can anyone offer a drawing of what the plumbing configuration might look like
behind a shower with separate hot and cold taps and a diverter knob on the
tub spout?

Thanks,

brian 

    Here's what I just installed.  Yours may or may not be like this.

                | |  ^ to shower head
        ________| |________
       |__O_____ O ____O___|  <--- this straight piece had four female-threaded
         | |    | |   | |          holes to match fittings soldered onto
         | |    | |   | |          3/8" copper pipe.  The hot/cold connections
       hot in    v   cold in       face standard house water pressure - more so
          ^   to tub   ^           than the tub faucet connection (and probably 
              faucet               the shower head connection too).  I'd look
    the "O"s are the handles for   here for a good soldered joint (sweat) and
    hot, shower/tub and cold       tight threaded fittings (teflon tape).

    For my hole-in-the-wall, I set my skil saw depth to just cut through the
wall (I had panelling on studs) as close to the middle of a stud as possible.
This left part of the stud for the good, remaining wallboard, and part for my
panel.  With lath-and-plaster it might be harder to find studs.  And even when
you do, you have to risk sawing through the nails holding the laths.  :-(
Be prepared for lots of plaster dust.
    An alternative might be to cut just inside the studs, and nail onto the
studs 3/4" strapping for your panel, or otherwise make a frame to nail your
panel to.
    Have fun!

    in .14, i'd agree with the drawing.  most of these look like this.
    however, the sabre trick is fine, but awfully messy. i have an 
    old house with lathe and plaster, believe me don't use one.
    most of these have blowers to keep the cut line clear so you can
    see it, and you'll have the dust in the house for months.
    you say the wall  is in a conspicious place. do you mean a hallway,
    a bedroom wall, need to know where ??????.  a leak is only one
    reason you need access, someday you may have to replce the 
    fixture and have to do this again. keep in mind that the plumbing
    also goes up to the shower head. so you amy need access to it 
    as well. the shower head also has a sweated joint just behind
    the wall where the shower head protrudes. not knowing who installed
    this, they may not have secured the copper pipe (actually you use
    a bracket) these joints degrade when the shower head is moved
    around. depending on where in the house you need to gain access,
    you might consider a shadow box, (send mail if you need an explanation)
    or maybe a door to nowhere, maybe a louvered door. the point
    here is a reaccessable entrance, without having to bust thru 
    the wall again. let us know what you decide and we can 
    help on how best do get in there, and how to make it reaccessable.
    
    
    jim. 
                    
    

Sorry Mr. Moderator for getting this discussion on bathroom leaks
started under a home inspection topic.  Not really the right 
place; perhaps we should move this discussion elsewhere? 

Anyway ... back to my original question:  Is the inspection 
guaranteed?  Well I called the inspection agency and their reply 
was "if it is something we missed then we feel responsible for
repairing the damage ... we will have the original inspector call 
you back shortly."  

The bad (good) news is that I can't reproduce the leak.  The day 
after I saw the leak it rained much harder and there was no sign 
of moisture.  I also took a very long shower and still could not
locate any moisture.  Murphy's law strikes again.  Between the 
inspector and I the only thing we could come up with is that 
my wife leaned against the plastic? tub enclosure which allowed the 
enclosure to separate from the faucet.  He said if I can reproduce
the leak he will send someone to fix it.  (he walked the roof and 
is confident that it is not the source of the leak)

I must admit that after the puddle dried up there was no sign of 
water marks or identifiable damage so I really don't fault them
for missing it.  I am pleased with the way they treated me when I
called about guaranteeing their work.  For those that are
interested the inspection was done by Phil Derosa at Realty
Inspections in Derry, NH.  Cost $300.00 broken down as follows: 

     Structure inspection	150
     water analysis		 45
     insect inspection	 	 45
     septic certification	 60

Since I don't have anything to compare against don't take this as
a recommendation for Realty Inspections but they did find a 
number of other faults that I was glad to know of before buying
the house.  I think the 300.00 was worth it and I am happy to 
know they standby their inspection guarantee (didn't see any 
guarantee in writing thou).  One note is that I was not present 
during the inspection... I know - bad move, but, it couldn't be 
helped.  

-JFK-

    
    My home inspector didn't check a few things that are going
    to cost me MEGABUCKS:
    
    1.  The heating system:
    
    Oh yes, he checked it!  His comments were (exact quote):
    
    "Boiler is old but operationg O.K.  Clean and tune up yearly. 
    (Firebox liner has) minor cracking.  (Heat exchanger) "needs
    cleaning.  Clean up rust (on flue and damper).  Clean up rust
    (n pipes).  Some are still covered w/asbestous.  A couple of
    valves appear to be leaking on radiators.  Clean up rust
    (on oil tank)."
    
    What he DIDN'T tell me is that the Boiler is way UNDER CAPACITY
    for the size house.  I have rooms that are below freezing!
    I have found ice in my tub on many a morning (not cubes, frozen
    droplets).  Twice my water has frozen while I left it running.
    My oil company technician looked at the boiler an all but laughed.
    He says it looked like someone just went to Sears (not actually
    the brand of the boiler), bought any old boiler, and stuck it in
    the system.

    Anyway, that is the biggest problem, but I also have to replace
    a rotted bathroom floor, and there is some structural rot in the
    attic from a previous leak.  Again, the inspector did not find
    these problems either.  
    
    Needless to say I would highly recommend NOT using ASTRA Home
    Inspections in Fitchburg.
    
    --Th�r�se
    
    p.s.  I am currently in the market for a good sanitarium (especially
          one that is free to the impoverished), so if you know of any,
          send mail to REGENT::MERSEREAU.
    

.8> don't you have any type of recourse against the home inspector company?
        
        Not if they correctly advised you of what their service entails.
        Most do NOT warrant that the home you are purchasing is suitable
        for any purpose.  That's between you and the owners.
        
        Some real estate companies offer a "guarantee".  Most don't. It's
        very much a "buyer beware" marketplace. 
        
        Tom

    
    
    My 1890's home was inspected by Astra, and they missed little details
    (like the boiler's capacity is insufficient to heat the house,
    structural damage in the roof/attic, and a rotted bathroom floor).
    I went through the house with two people before purchasing it,
    and the inspector did not find anything that we did not find.
    I sure didn't pay a home inspector to find out that I should
    "clean and tune" the boiler yearly!
    
    -tm
    
    

    Hmmmmmm.  I used Astra when I bought my home in Littleton nine
    months ago.  I thought at the time that the guy did a very good
    job.  I guess a lot of it depends on the particular inspector.
    I forget the name of the guy, but he was the company president
    (and maybe their only employee?).
    
    Jim

    
    
    	I didn't know home inspectors were experts in sizing heating
    units ?
    	-Steve-
    

I've used ASTRA twice, and was very satisfied with them.  They found a 
couple of things that would have surprised me, and I've had no surprises 
from things that they looked at.  

If they screwed up, call them.  They carry insurance against bad calls, 
and if they agree that it is their fault, you might get some money out 
of them.

If your pipes are freezing when the heat is on, there may be more wrong 
than under-sized heating plant. (No insulation in the walls, for 
example.  Or air leaks.)

In any case, you have nothing to lose and the chance of something to 
gain if you give them a call and complain.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    
    Re: .8 and .9
    
    There may be a recourse against the home inspection company, 
    and/or possibly some others (owners or R.E. agent).  Not only
    did the home inspection company do a lousy job, but the real 
    estate agent misled me into thinking that the owners never used
    the wood stove in the living room (the owners contradicted him
    at closing).  I am trying to seek legal advice.  If anyone knows
    of any good lawyers who might be able to handle this king of case,
    let me know.
    
    RE:  .10
    
    Astra has many home inspectors.  I'm sure some are good and some
    are not.  Nevertheless, they should not employ people to inspect
    homes who are not qualified.  The person who inspected my home
    was Chris McNamara. 
    

>                  I am trying to seek legal advice.  If anyone knows
>    of any good lawyers who might be able to handle this king of case,
>    let me know.

Save yourself a few bucks and call Astra first.  If you talk to them, 
they might offer to do something.  If your lawyer just drops on them out 
of the blue, then you've set an adversarial tone to the relationship that 
will certainly hurt you over the long run.  Any court will want evidence 
that you first tried to settle in good faith, so give it a try.

					>>>==>PStJTT

  Re: .11
    
  > If your pipes are freezing when the heat is on, there may be more wrong 
  > than under-sized heating plant. (No insulation in the walls, for 
  > example.  Or air leaks.)

    The house is 90 years old and never had insulation in the walls, 
    likewise it does have air leaks.  However, that is not the cause 
    of the of problem.  Any idiot ought to take those factors into 
    account when they put in a heating system.  There are plenty of
    older homes like mine which have no wall insulation and air leaks,
    and still are adequately heated with steam systems.  
    
    Even with wall insulation and sealed air leaks, I doubt that the system
    would be good enough.  Even in 32 degree Farenheit weather, the system
    does not have enough pressure for all the vents to operate correctly
    (No, it is not the vents, as I have checked them all, and replaced
    where necessary).  I have had a heating company look at the system, and
    they said "It looks like somebody went off to Sears and bougt a boiler,
    without even figuring out what they needed".  Incidently, I had said in
    an earlier note that it wasn't actually a Sears (I thought he was
    joking), but I was incorrect.  It actually IS a Sears ("Sears Homart"). 
    
    --Th�r�se
    

    Re: I didn't know home inspectors were experts in sizing heating units
   
    WHY NOT? That's seems like a reasonable enough thing for them to do.
    They check and recommend amounts of insulation, weather stripping,
    types and quality of windows and doors, the condition of the heating
    system, suggested maintenance schedules.... why not the capacity?
    Aren't these all releated to how well and easily your new home will be
    to heat? 
    
    Charly

    
    Re: .18 and .19
    
    I agree with .19, if home inspectors aren't able to thoroughly
    check a heating system (and capacity seems pretty important),
    than they should state that up front, and tell you that the heating
    system should be inspected by someone else.  What really gets me
    is that they devoted a whole page to the heating system, and
    I based my judgement on that.  I would have hired someone else
    if they had said "we are not qualified to evaluate heating systems".
    
    -tm
    

    Not to burst your bubble, but...
    You probably won't get very far.  I had a similar problem with Home
    Inspections Inc. and got nowhere.  The problem centered around the
    chimney.  The inspector claimed all was fine.  Shortly after moving
    in I was on the roof (for something?) and noticed a large crack
    in the top of the chimney.  "That can't be right!" said I.  I had
    the chimney checked and sure enough... cracked tiles all the way
    down.  I seems that hte previous owners had a fire in there and
    didn't tell me.
    
    I complained to no avail.  It turns out that even though I had proof
    that the previous owners had known about the fire (extinguisher
    residue in the chimney), I would have had to prove that I wasn't
    told about the fire for fear of the sale falling through.  That
    is a bit hard to prove.  Basically it comes down to whether the
    judge is having a good or bad day.  It cost me $3200. for the repairs
    which was an expensive lesson to learn.
    
    Dan

    I'd agree with those who are suggesting that you call the inspection
    company yourself first.  Talk to "the boss", whoever he is.  If
    he's running a responsible business he'll want to hear if one of
    his people really screwed up.  Whether you'll ever get anything out 
    of this, no matter what you do, is open to debate, but by all means 
    try the civilized discussion approach first.  

    	When I had my home inspected I called a local oil company
    and asked if they would check out the heating system.  I used
    the same company that the previous owners were using and explained
    that I was in the process of buying the house.  They came out and
    tested the efficiency, checked it over, and told me how much oil
    they had delivered to the house for the past two years.  There was
    *no* charge for the service, but I told him if I did buy the house
    I'd sign up.  I can't imagine that a service could charge more than
    $50 to look things over.
    
    					=Ralph=

 On Building Inspectors who 'check' the house before buying...

 We used a company called CHIS for our Maynard home and and were completely 
ignorant about home buying. We received a detailed report which described 
insulation, electrical, etc, but this was of the 'check off' style. What they 
didn't find was a hole in the furnace ($2400) and that the outside porch had 
termites. 


 Kind regards,
-Tom Rezucha

    I had my home inspected by Cornell. The guy that they sent out was
    the best. He spent 4 1/2 hours going through the house checking
    everything. It was snowing real bad but that didn't stop this guy.
    We still spent over an hour on the outside of the house. He told
    me though, most people don't bother to go around with him and ask
    questions. He said he only spends a couple hours then because he
    feels the people don't care they're just doing it because it has
    to be done. At the end of the day I ended up with about 20 pages
    of notes and have had no surprises since. He even ripped apart the
    fuse box and examined every connection. I would recommend them highly
    if all of their inspectors are the same.
    
    Satisfied in Nashua
    

    How about an "almost new" house?
    
    We've looked at one house where the owner is a construction worker,
    and has done much of the finishing himself.  I'm not really sure
    where he started - whether he did the any of the framing, or drywall
    installation, or has merely done the subsequent finishing.  The
    house is three years old, but there are still some items unfinished.
    
    The obvious things for us to do are to have a thorough inspection
    (we'll probably use Cornell), and to speak to the town's building
    inspectors, to see if they have any comments.  (It's in Townsend.)
    
    What are the points we might want to examine, to determine whether
    either the workmanship was poor or corners were cut?
    
    In about a 45 minute walk through, we've noticed:  The windows are
    double pane (those we looked at), and all the sliding windows have
    storm windows as well; the crank-out kitchen window is double paned
    with no storm.  Some of the windows have paint on the outside, where no
    masking was done; the owner claims he'll clean them up.  The kitchen
    cabinetry looked very nice, and were plentiful, but the shelves were
    particle board with the edges not finished to my taste.  One cabinet
    door remains to be done. The wall behind the stove seemed to be painted
    drywall, whereas I would prefer tile or something else, more durable
    and fire retardant.  A few electric face plates had yet to be
    installed.  The vents are in for a whole house attic fan, but the fan
    is not yet installed.  The owner plans to install an attic stair case,
    but hasn't gotten to that yet, so there's no current access to the
    attic.  I can't tell whether there's any other attic ventilation.  The
    lally columns in the basement have metal plates at both top and bottom;
    I've never seen the plates at the bottom before, so I don't know
    whether that says anything about how well the columns were installed.
    The best part is that there is a foundation for a garage already, but
    the owner ran out of money to finish the garage. 
    
    Also, the house has electric heat.  The is the second house I've
    seen where the finishing was done by the owner and the heat was
    electric.  I'm starting to believe that carpenters and other
    construction workers have a real dislike for plumbers.
    
    Overall, I like the house, and the unfinshed items by themselves don't
    bother me, since they're all negotiating points, and I know full well
    what schedule delays are like.  Also, only two of the unfinished items
    are tasks I wouldn't want to do myself (the attic stairs and the
    cabinet door).  I just want to make sure I'm not missing any signs of
    potential trouble. 
    
       Gary

   >> the owner ran out of money to finish the garage. 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  >>  Also, the house has electric heat.  The is the second house I've
  >>  seen where the finishing was done by the owner and the heat was
  >>  electric.  I'm starting to believe that carpenters and other
  >>  construction workers have a real dislike for plumbers.
    
      Electric heat is economical to install.  It's the cost forever
    afterward that can be expensive if the house isn't well insulated
    and tight.  I tend to think it would be more of a lack of funds than
    a dislike of plumbers as the reason.
    
    -Jim

    The latest news:  the building inspector found the building permits,
    but no occupancy permits.  Apparently, these people have been living in
    the house illegally for the last three years.  The building inspector
    is firing off a letter, giving the owners seven days to respond.  To
    complicate matters, the Board of Health can't find the septic system
    plans, although the inspector there seems to be quite sure it was
    properly inspected.  He recalls having been up there several times to
    make sure the tank was at least 25 feet from the house (seems excessive
    to me).  Needless to say, if we do make an offer, it will be contingent
    on getting the occupancy permits first. 
    
    Hmm.  We're now faced with choosing between this newer, cheaper house,
    in good condition, and another, slightly older, slightly more expensive
    house, in obviously worse condition, but which was probably built more
    professionally, and with all the paperwork intact. 
    
       Gary

    
    	RE: .12
    
    ...properly inspected.  He recalls having been up there several
    times to make sure the tank was at least 25 feet from the house
    (seems excessive to me).  Needless to say, if we do make an offer,
    it will be contingent...
    
    
    	NH Statutes require 35 feet from the house, so your tank at
    25 feet is not really excessive.
    

    Re .13
    
    35 feet from the house?  The septic tanks at the two homes I've
    owned in New Hampshire were 12 and 5 feet from the house.  Is the
    35-foot spec a recent regulation?
    
    pbm
    

    
    	I don't know when it took effect, but I built my house last
    year and that was the requirement.  I know that the state will
    allow waivers to 25 feet, but I've never heard 12 and 5 feet.
    What were the ages of the two houses you owned?

    My house in Acton, MA is two years old, and the tank is less than
    10 feet from the house.  The leach field, however, is more than
    25 feet away.
    
    stephen

    re .15
    
    The 5-footer was built in 1972, the 12-footer in 1979.  I'm sure
    both were legitimate at their respective times, because other homes
    in the area have similar distances.  The leach fields on both, were,
    of course, a considerable distance from the houses.
    
    pbm
    

    We've discussed home inspection many times, but, are there people
    who can help with the building process?
    
    I am considering buying some land and building a house on it from
    plans.  I would probably NOT be the general contractor.  But, I
    still need help.  I don't know how to read perc reports and to judge
    the quality of land.  I can look at a plan and visualize a house,
    but, I can't tell if the heating is adequate or other such things.
    
    Basically, I need the Paul Cornell of house building.  (And, yes,
    I did leave a message for him to call me.)
    
    Do you know anyone in this business who can consult with me and
    make sure that I know the trade-offs of my decisions?
    
    Roger                              (ALSO POSTED IN REAL ESTATE)

    I was wondering how you would become an inspector in the state of
    Mass.  I heard that you have to be involved in real estate for so
    many years.  Is this true?  If so, for how long?  
    
    Thanx
    
    Laura
    

    	All you have to do is hang a shingle on your door that says:
    Home Inspector.

A bunch of different people might do this sort of thing for you:

	a general contractor
	an architect
	a structural engineer
	a home inspector
	a real estate agent
	a real estate lawyer

Some of these people have a conflict of interest, advising you on work that 
they hope to wind up performing themselves.  Others are professionals that
traditionally charge by the hour and sometimes expend considerable effort on
minutae.  And the practical expertise of the people in all of these roles 
varies wildly.

It has occurred to me that somebody thoroughly familiar with construction 
but not skilled in any particular construction trade could provide a 
valuable service as a "naive owner's agent", watching out for the owner's 
interests throughout the planning and construction stages of a project, 
explaining choices and problems in everyday English, making sure schedules 
and finances are realistic.

I don't think it would work, though.  Good knowledge of specific architects,
contractors, suppliers, inspectors, unions, etc., and good working
relationships with all of these, would be an important asset of this "agent"
- but all of the above would HATE such a person for meddling in "their
business".  The work would be very time-consuming, and probably quite 
stressful; yet paying by the hour for detailed explanations and advice is
just the sort of thing the customer is trying to get away from.  There would
probably also be liability insurance hassles, and possibly licensing problems. 

So I suggest:

1. Read everything you can find about construction, including (but by no means 
   limited to) this conference.  There's just no substitute for knowing what 
   you want done, how you want it done, and how to express it in the peculiar 
   language of construction. 

2. Find (perhaps through this conference) and hire construction professionals 
   that you can trust.  Part of that trust is trusting them to give you good
   advice, to explain all of the assumptions and options, and not to take
   advantage of your lack of knowledge.  Another part of that trust is being
   willing to pay for their time if all you want is information. 

    Wow!!!!!  I hope I picked the right one!!!

    It may be true even in well-regulated(?) New Hampshire.  My daughter
    paid a home inspector who said he couldn't vouch for the roof since
    it had a (light) snow cover, and was not responsible, when later
    they discovered the hot water heater wasn't even connected and of
    course was broken.  The
    oven plays on one temp only.  No recourse whatsoever.

    
    	Yeah, the home inspector reports have these little clauses in
    them that say basically:
    
    	"This is just what we think and might not actually reflect
    	 reality in this or any other forseeable universe so you can't
    	 really hold us to what we say."
    
    	Everyone keeps an "out", I guess.
    
    	But cynicism aside, I enjoyed walking through the house with
    the house inspector before we closed.  I learned a lot from him
    since he obviousely saw that this was my first house and offered
    plenty of suggestions and comments.
    
    							-c

    By inspector do you mean someone who inspects structures on behalf
    of private parties, to give advice on the condition of the structures?
    Or do you mean someone who works for a municipality in an official
    capacity, and has the authority to issue and sign off on building
    permits?  Or do you mean something entirely different?
    
    Re: .3
    
    Even very competant inspectors are cautious when it comes to roofs.
    They might indicate the current general condition of the roof, and
    whether there are any visible signs of leaks, but they won't guarantee
    that the roof won't leak the next day.  Apparently, roof leaks are
    just too unpredictable.
    
    On the other hand, if the inspector didn't point out that a water
    heater was disconnected, I'd consider suing.  My guess (as a
    non-lawyer) would be that you'd have to bring in one or more expert
    witnesses, or perhaps formal documentation from the American Society
    of Building Inspectors, to show that checking the hot water supply
    is an ordinary and routine part of every home inspection.  I think
    there only defense might be if it were patently obvious to any
    non-expert observer that the hot water heater wasn't connected.
    Even so, our inspector made it a point to write down some very obvious
    points (like missing cabinet doors), and I don't blame him.
    
       Gary

    Even after living in (and tearing apart and rebuilding) my house
    for over six years, I'm still discovering things about it that I
    didn't know.  It's unrealistic to expect a house inspector to find
    *everything* in a couple of hours.  A good one will find most of
    the obvious things, but they won't find *everything*, and it's
    unrealistic to expect that they will.  A house inspector can give
    you more information than you might otherwise have about a house,
    but don't expect miracles.

    By inspector I mean an individual who we (the buyers) hire to give
    information on the condition of a house.
    
    I choose Paul Cornell.  He was highly recommended in the Real_Estate
    note.  I have an appointment with him Monday to inspect a 1788
    Colonial that i am thinking of buying.  It needs alot of work but
    it has LOTS of possibilities.
    
    Wish me luck!
    
    Laura

    Most home inspectors are part of some association whose name I forget.
    But I'm sure that it has no official or legal status and the only
    real function is to make it look like they're "official" in some
    way.
    
    Same as "master" X, where X is anything other than electrician or
    plumber (the two remaining trades with a legally-recognized
    apprenticeship system).  (Hear that Norm?)
    

    you have a license 
    
    (e.g. a driver's license or a marriage license)

    re:-2
    
    My Dad's a Master Craftsman in sheet metal (I guess it's the sheet
    metal worker's union, or something similar -- never paid any attention)
    and they have an apprenticeship program, too.  I'm not sure what
    you mean by "legally recognized", but I know the union mandates
    what rank you are in closed shops.  Just as another example.
    
    Back to the subject at hand, I have a question.  If there is no
    "certification", how do you find out (assuming we eliminate personal
    recommendation, the obvious best source) whether to trust an inspector
    or not?  Or is it better to hire a general contractor or builder
    with a known track record to advise the novice on the condition
    of a house?
    
    Sherry

Short of a recommendation, I know of no way to pick an inspector!  
In other cases (selecting an oil co., ect.) you can talk to the
people ahead of time and at least learn a little about how they
conduct their business.  But with an inspector, it's a one-shot
deal, and they insist on being paid immediately, so you can't even
wait to figure out if they gave you good advice before paying.

There's definately one way *not* to pick an inspector - don't let
the seller or any seller's agent select or recommend the inspector.
I think you're better off setting your finger down in the phone 
book than using someone who knows that he's got to please the 
seller or a real estate agent, not you, to get repeat business.

	Luck,
	Larry

PS - In the case of obviously bad advice, at least you should be able
to get your inspection fee back.  Was a complaint issued to the BBB?

Get a plumber to check the plumbing, and a
heating contractor to check the heating, and a 
roofer to check the roofing, and a
structural engineer to check the structure, and a
...

I'm sure you get the idea...

Scott.

    	The only way to be sure of getting a good inspector is to go
    out and find a good inspector.  This state certified stuff really
    gets me going.  When you go out to buy a car, do you need a state
    certification saying the car is good?  State certification is a
    scam designed to limit entry into professions, and to give people
    a false sense of security.  
    	I'm a state certified waste water treatment engineer.  Eight
    years ago I took a two hour exam because I thought I wanted to work
    in water pollution control.  Every year I pay the state $15 and
    they send me a little card saying that I'm state certified.  I don't
    remember much, but it doesn't matter because I'll never have to
    be retested.
    	Massachusetts certifies lots of different profession: Hair
    dressers, engineers, doctors, and there is talk of certifying
    acupuncturest.  Some certifications require tests, some just require
    a license fee, but none that I no of requires periodic testing of
    competence.  State certification is just a bureaucratic game, assuring
    the consumer nothing.
    
    				=Ralph=
    
                              
    (by the way in Canada you can't call yourself an engineer unless
     you pass the government engineering certification test)

    This is not entirely true... My husband is a Master Electrician
    in the state of MA and has his Journeyman's licence in NH and has
    to show proof of 15 hours schooling on the National Electrical code
    every 2(3?) years to renew his licence.
    
    Lynn
    

    I meant that an electrician/plumber is licensed by the state and
    the master/journeyman (I'm not sure about apprentice) requirements
    are directly called out by the state exam.
    
    Carpenters and sheetmetal workers may have an apprenticeship system
    within their unions but it isn't tied into any state-sponsored
    licensing program.

    However, as someone pointed out, the more things the state licenses
    the less likely those licenses mean anything.
    

    In case any one is interested in a really good home inspector, Paul
    Cornell Associates is an excellent one.  It is a family business
    They sent out John Cornell to inspect our future (I hope) house.
    He was very friendly and professional.  We walked around with John
    and he showed us alot of things we could fix, what we couldnt fix
    without outside help, how to fix things, ect.  He spent 4 hours
    with us, 2 hours just in the basement, and gave us an 8 page desciption
    of what the house needed.  I was very impressed with the whole
    inspection. I highly recommend him.  
    
    Laura
    

    Thanks for the recommendation.  You might want to put it in 2012 so
    people looking for home inspectors will find it.

    
    re .14
    
    I'm not sure about MA or NH (haven't lived here long enough) but
    in NY its a tightly closed club to be an Electrician. This guy I
    knew tried for several years to get his electricians liscence in
    NY and was turned down each year. Then he moves to MA and his first
    year he gets his liscence. In the past 10 years in the Syracuse
    NY area only 5 electricians liscences have been issued. The people
    on the board are all electrical contractors, and they don't want
    any new compitition. I'm not saying they don't their job, I'm sure
    they do. But there are other people who know what their doing and
    they can't because the contractors don't want the compitition.
    
    Mike    

    I'm so confused about all these different types of inspections, even
    though I've read alot of them.  
    
    We (my husband and I) have made an offer on a house that has private
    sewer and well.  I know I need to get the house inspected, and I also
    want the sewer and well done as well.  Can/should I have all these
    inspections done on the same day, or can I have the house done on 
    a Monday, and the well/sewer done a few days later (provided the house
    inspection is ok with me?).  I have two days from the home inspection
    to cancel the deal.  If this part flunks, why should I have the well
    and sewer done, right?    Should I have one company do all of these
    tests, but cancel the well/sewer if the home has problems?
    
    Sign me, confused
    Thanks for your help!
    debbie

    We had our house inspected in shifts.  The house was done on a Friday
    including a pest inspection at the same time arranged by the inspection
    agency.  We had the furnace inspected afterwards on a recommendation
    by the home inspector.  All we had to do was make a decision within
    72 hours of all of the inspection work.  I do not believe you need
    one inspector to do all of the things you are looking for as there
    are specialists for different things like pest, furnace, structure
    etc.  Your home inspector may offer a menu of services but do not
    be surprised if several people take part.  We had the option of
    Radon, primary structure, plumbing, lead paint, asbestos, water
    tests, etc. all at additional costs depending upon the test.  You
    should heave the well and sewer inspected, you do not have to have
    it done at the same time, you should be able to cancel the latter
    if you are not satisfied prior to that point.  
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Brian 

    Part of your confusion about inspectors, if you've tried to read about
    them in HOME_WORK, is that there are two very different types of
    inspectors.
    
    One type is a paid local (typically town) official who inspects
    construction projects in progress to ensure conformance with applicable
    building codes.  The inspectors that get involved with a typical
    residential project include the building inspector, wiring inspector,
    plumbing inspector, and gas inspector.  The decisions these people make
    carry the force of law, and a wrong decision either way can incur a
    fair amount of liability for the town.
    
    The other type of inspector - the type you're interested in - is a
    private individual who makes his or her living by looking over houses
    that are being sold.  As discussed elsewhere in this conference, the
    quality of the services they sell varies as much as the people do. 
    They're not licensed or regulated, they're occasionally in cahoots with
    realtors or sellers, and they carefully disclaim all liability for the
    accuracy of their reports.  Some of them are excellent and well worth
    the money they charge - the trick is to find one of those, probably via
    word-of-mouth, possibly via HOME_WORK.  Their decisions don't carry the
    force of law, but your purchase-and-sale agreement probably gives some
    contractural importance to them.
    
    On to your main question:  house inspection vs. well/sewer (did you
    mean septic tank?) inspection. I don't know anything about specialized
    septic/well inspections - the overall house inspector did mine (but I
    had town water and a septic tank).  Perhaps the town health inspector
    in involved for some reason?  The one specialty I know of is termite
    inspection, which is performed by a licensed exterminator.
    
    It's unlikely that the house will "flunk" the inspection, unless the
    structure is in imminent danger of collapsing.  Most likely, the
    inspector won't find anything substantial.  If the inspector does find
    flaws in major mechanical systems, you're more likely to use that fact
    to demand repairs, to adjust the price, or to organize escrow money for
    repairs rather than to call the deal off.  The condition of the water
    systems is certainly part of this picture, so I would urge you to have
    the second inspection done anyway even if the first one is unfavorable.
    
    As to whether multiple inspectors should work on the same day or at the
    same time:  whatever suits your schedule (and theirs).  You want to be
    able to walk around with the inspectors and take notes - they'll say
    they'll send you a report with everything in it, but take notes anyway
    (you'll get more details that matter to you), so keep that in mind when
    scheduling their visits.  It might be fun to have their visits overlap,
    especially if they disagree about something!

    I would have every thing inspected the same day.  If you have the
    house inspected and then have the sewer and well inspected a couple
    days later and the well/sewer fails you may not be able to get out
    of the deal (I don't know how the wording in the P&S goes), look
    at the cost of the house, now look at the cost of having the well
    and sewer inspected. So lets say the house fails how much have you
    waisted by having the well and sewer inspected.  I would say it
    is a small price to pay just to be sure before you are forced into
    a deal you don't want or at least, the loss of your deposit.
    
    Good luck,
    Paul
     

    
    
        I did it all the same day, so it may cost you an extra
    $200 in inspection costs if there's a major problem, but its
    a lot easier to do it all at once.
    
        I had one inspector check the house from top to bottom,
    and also do the certified pest inspection, UFFI, lead paint, and radon test
    (results in 72 hours), and I had a septic contractor pump
    out the tank and check everything (found a broken inlet to
    be fixed by owner prior to closing at his cost).
    
       We have town water so that was not needed.

    One more note.  A home inspector (the kind you pay not bribe ;^))
    is liable for their work.  A major structural flaw missed or major
    system problem missed is a potential suit against the inspector.
    If you incur major repairs that would have influenced you decision
    to buy the house, the inspector is on the hook to pay for it.  I
    second the notion that you should choose an inspector wisely.  Get
    your own and do not let the realtors arrange this for you.
    
    Brian

    We had our inspections on the same day, all completed within approx
    2.5 hours.
    
    Building/pest. inspection was started at noon and took 1.5 hours.
    He inspected wiring/fuse box, water pipes/heater, attic, FHA/AC, exterior
    trims/molding, roof/chimney, pests and walked the perimeters of the property
    for wet spots caused by septic, water runnoff, leaky water main.
    Meanwhile making recommendation as he felt needed attention (paint,
    shutter replace, trim back bushes, ect.).
    
    Findings; Attic venting needed, new roof, leaky water main, reversed
    polarity on pool pump (zzzzzzz), 20 amp fuses looking for 15's.
    No wood boaring bugs...greate.
                                                                        
    At 1:00, Lakeside sewer came to pump the system (at owners expence)
    and performed an inspection of the system (at our cost). 1 hour
    total. 
    
    Findings; System has been rescently updated with new tank and extended
    fields and should last another 18 years provided a once a year pump.
                    
    Come to find out, the inspector and sewer guy knew each other and
    where both very helpful and thorough (I feal I got a better than
    average report between the paid for facts, and the friendly bull
    between old friends).
    
    All in all, I felt more reassured knowing all there was to know
    about this house. No surprises (except water heater went 30 days
    later-oh well).                                   
    
    Apon the offer, we stated "upon inspection and aproval of house and
    septic within ??? days of offer".
                         
    Inspections from pros are worth it. Multiple inspections in one
    day gets it over with. You can decide quicker, negotiate findings
    with the owner, and get on with life, or start your second job,
    whatever you decide to do  with your results.
    
    Good luck.. Dave'
    

A point shared with us by a lawyer-friend. 

Agreements often say 'upon inspection by...'  and typically have a 
dollar limit of repairs, above which the buyer can call off the deal 
without retribution.

But, you should get it to say "buyers' approval of inspection by...."


the first way, there is a monetary cut off point which is somewhat 
arbitrary (there are many ways to fix things).  You may be really 
unhappy about something, but if it's not above that dollar amount, you 
can't get out with your deposit.

The second way, you have to approve of the results of the inspection.  
If they found something that really bothered you, regardless of the 
amount necessary to fix it, you can still back out.

    
      Re .7 
    
      You're absolutely right -- EXCEPT that a smart seller shouldn't
    agree to something so arbitrary. (I wouldn't - of course it depends
    upon how desperate the seller is!)  ;^)
    
    					Kenny

	I need to figure out the market value of our condo in Nashua.

	Could anyone recommend a reasonable place that could do the appraisal?
	The only place I've found so far is "Property Financial Services" in 
	Manchester. They charge $225.00. Is this considered to be a good price?

	Riaz

    Have you tried calling a few local realtors and getting them to do a
    "Free Market Analysis"?  This isn't a "real" appraisal but it can give
    you a rough idea of the market value.  When I checked into the price
    of an actual appraisal about a year back I was given a figure of $300-
    400.  If you go the "paid" route, be sure the appraisal firm has been
    certified by one of the real estate appraiser associations; anyone can
    call themself an appraiser.

We've made a conscious decision here to stay away from as many aspects of real 
estate sales as possible.  The real_estate keyword has listings of a few notes,
but they are mostly about how to fix your house for best resale or things like
that.  This file is big enough without pulling in all of the real estate issues.
Besides, there's a file devoted specifically to that - I believe it's currently
at TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE.  I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong.

Sorry, I've locked this note.

Paul
[Moderator]

    I need some advise.  I am presently looking at a 3 bedroom, 1 bath
    house that has been vacant for 10 years (+/- 1 year).  What should I
    look for in the first pass, and what are the glaring signs of major
    repairs???
    
    I am a rookie (read: first time home buyer with not much cash) in this
    adventure and I want a fixer-upper, but don't want to get burned.
    
    This file has been a wealth of advise for all kinds of home owners and
    I hope to gain from this... *8�)...*8�)...*8�)...
    
    Thanks in advance for this advise and you can post it here or send mail
    to OAW::MILLER
    
    Patrick			Long_Live_`66_Mustangs!!!
    

    I'm sort of new to this too,.. but the first thing I'd look for is
    water damage due to broken pipes.  Since it was vacant for 10 years,
    they may not have wanted to run heat in the winter and possibly 
    may not have drained the pipes and hence the pipes froze,
    broke,...etc.
    
    Good luck.
    
    regds,
    	-John

    the first thing i'd do is hire a professional home inspector.
    
    				herb

    I have heard alot of positive feedback from a Company in Chelmsford
    called Property Consultants....  I think their fee is reasonable and
    have heard that they do work for DCU.
    
    Nancy

     Maybe this note should be in 2016 but it looks like the good info is
     buried and not being used.
  

     My son and I are planning on starting an home inspection service. What we 
     would like to find out from recent home buyer (last 5 years). What was your
     expectations? Where they meet? What you liked? What didn't you like?
     How do you find your HI. Also if you could share with us a copy of the
     inspection form used. Names and address can be crossed out. Mail it to me
     at OGO1-B/A05.

     If you were a seller feel free to add to the note.


     thanks
     walt

RE:                   <<< Note 5494.0 by STOWOA::FETTIG >>>
   
     The main thing I did not like was the inspector trying to sell his
     services to the owner of the house I was buying WHILE he was there
     working for me.  It made me wonder if he was might be going easy on
     some potential issues.

     Fortunately, I have enoungh knowledge of most of the issues that I
     felt confident about most of what the inspector said.  I still think
     it is a bad business practice.  It is kind of like your lawyer flirting
     with your soon-to-be-ex-spouse during a divorce trial.

     I liked being able to follow the inspector with my tape recorder to
     watch and record each point of inspection.  I liked the way the 
     inspector explained each issue.  I liked the fact that he had a pre-
     written list of items to inspect (so that nothing was forgotten).
     I liked the professional-looking report that the inspector presented
     at the end.

                                      Greg

    
    
    What sold me was the the fact that when I placed the initial
    call to the inspector that I ended up hiring...He answered the 
    telephone and was able to schedule the inspection right then. 
    He was on a roof, inspecting someone elses home when he answered 
    my call from his flip-phone.... no waiting around for call backs 
    and schedule checks.  
    
    Prices were good... and the realtor recommended him.
    
    Good Luck, 
    Darlene 

    I would not use a HI that the broker recommended. Since the broker
    represents the seller, anyone the broker recommends, IMO, is also
    representing the seller. I asked friends and the local building
    inspector (who was hesitant about recommending anyone).
    
    What I did not like about my last one was that he found faulty
    items that he commented on verbally but did not include in the 
    written report. When I found items he overlooked or did not see,
    he said, "So?" Those items, he obviously had seen them, also did 
    not show in the rport. And when the pest inspector arrived and found
    a problem, the HI said, "Since you were not asking me to do a pest
    inspection, I did not mention that when I saw it." Also, his written
    report arrived 9 days later than he said it would, really pressing me
    to the wall because of the terms of the Offer to Purchase that limited
    the amount of time I had to negotiate based on the inspector's report.
    
    The message I would bring to an aspiring HI is to work from your
    checklist, record everything found right then and there (whether it is
    in your specific performance contract), be prompt in following up with 
    any promises or obligations. Professional attitude (read that as
    confident and knowing) would encourage me. 
    
    That inspector I used got a lot of bad press from me for several years.
    
    There is a HI registry or licensing board (voluntary, I think) that is
    headquartered in Massachusetts, so you may want to consider checking
    out that professional affiliation or accreditation.
    
    Good luck!

one of things I liked about my HI was that during the inspection he was
handing me photocopies that went into greater detail about the problems
he was pointing out.  Some of the photocopies were do-it-yourself tips
on how to solve/fix the problem yourself.  He also encuoraged me to call
him anytime if I had a question about trying to fix something (never took him
up on it though...)

Dan

I am in the process of buying a house, and I turned to
this conference to try to find a good home inspector -
unfortunately all the recommendations I could find were
old.  I'd therefore like to start this note for new
up-to-date recommendations for home inspectors and
I'd like to start it off by making my own recommendation:
Maida Services Inc. seemed to give me a very good and
thorough inspection with a good detailed report.  They
found several things that I wouldn't have thought to look
for and the inspector gave the impression of being very
knowledgeable.  They're based in Plaistow NH but they
will inspect properties in MA too.  Their number is
(603)382-3839.

If anything comes up that they didn't find then I'll be sure
to post it here...

Lezz Giles

There are tons of home inspector references in:

	TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE

I used Paul Cornell.  He comes very highly recommended from me and others.  His
number is in the Real_estate conference.  Just do a search on "inspect".

-Rob

>I'd therefore like to start this note for new
>up-to-date recommendations for home inspectors

See note 2016.

    
    Hello, 
    
     I had the 3 family house inspected by Paul Cornell. What a dynamite he
    is! He is very thorough and had saved alot of bucks on negotiating. I
    am very grateful to have him. If you happen to have him, mention my
    name to him. If he does not remember since he has thousands of clients
    to deal with, tell him remember the Deaf guy. Bingo!
    
    Regards,
    
    Dave
    

	Paul is good, but the inspection he did for me 3-4 years ago
	he missed several things which I didn't find til much later
	(ie. after I aleady purchased the house) like some dry-rot,
	structural problems, and an electrical problem.

	Bottom line is that one should not depend solely on the
	home inspector to find problems.

	Two *BIG* thumbs up for Maida Services, Inc of
Plaistow, NH. 603-382-3839. Mike Wilhelm showed up early
on the appointed day and I must admit I wondered about this
at first as I expected the owner Paul Maida.

	Any reservations on my part quickly disappeared as
Mike began his work. THIS GUY WAS THOROUGH!!!! He left no
stone unturned (in the dirt floor basement), no crannies
were left unseen. One example of his prowess was he spotted
the remains of some oil tank lines barely visible in the wall
downstairs, (behine the current oil tank, no less) Sure enough 
there was a UST on the neighbor's property which used to be 
plumbed to the house being inspected.

	Fee was $190.00

Rick

    Are they affiliated with Maida in Andover?  I was going to make an
    appointment with Paul, the owner - same fee.

>                     <<< Note 308.115 by NEMAIL::BRENNA >>>
>                     -< Are they affiliated with Andover? >-
>
>    Are they affiliated with Maida in Andover?  I was going to make an
>    appointment with Paul, the owner - same fee.

	Not really sure as the only address I have for Maida is Plaistow, NH,
but since the name is the same (Paul Maida) I'd suspect it's the same company.

Rick