Conference 7.286::home_work

    I'm no concrete nor cinderblock expert, but I do have a cinderblock
    wall (about 6 bricks high and 8 across) which is err... was holding
    back some earth along one side of a doorway. This thing is a legacy
    from the previous owner, and I have watched it keel over the last
    three years to the point where the center is bulged out about 30
    degrees from flush.
    
    Two morals from this: 1) if there's any lateral pressure on the
    blocks (i.e. it's a wall as opposed to a column), use metal lath
    and rebar, and fill 'em with concrete. 2) If they're not filled,
    make sure there's drainage holes, so that ice does not force the
    blocks out of place. I think this is the main problem I have with
    my wall.
    
    Hydraulic cement acts in the presence of water, and it expands to
    seel leaks. Great stuff for that purpose, but I don't think it is
    for filling blocks. It's also relatively expensive.
    
    -Scott
    

  If all you want to do is strengthen a free-standing cinderblock wall, you
  might consider a product called block bond.  It contains fiberglass and
  some sort of bonding agent (epoxy?) and you spread about a quarter inch of
  it all over the face(s) of the wall.  It is alleged that you can put this
  stuff on a morter-less wall (that is, just a stack of blocks that happens
  to look like a wall) and when it cures you can lift the entire wall as if
  it were one piece.

  JP

    Do you know any more about block bond?.  I looked into this when
    I was building my garage and could only locate one product. (It
    is made in N.H.)  However, it was not recommended for use below grade.
    Also, it seems that the terms cinder block and concrete block are
    used interchangeably.  I never thought they were the same.  Concrete
    blocks are routinely used for foundations of home/commercial buildings
    in at least the Pittsburgh area.  I built my garage foundation out
    of concrete block and mortar.  Later I decided I didn't want the
    pedestrian door where I had left out blocks for it.  I had a real
    time trying to remove two blocks for the door.  It took a number
    of swings from sledge hammer to dislodge/destroy the blocks.  Cinder
    blocks I always thought were used for interior, dry, possibly non-load
    bearing walls of commercial structures.
    
    Marty
    
    
    

    I used block bond on a wall that supported one side of a small house.
    The wall was laid up with blocks dry and then the bond applied.
    It's still standing after 15years! We even backfilled part way up
    the wall.
    
    I would not recommend it for below ground work in general.
    
    I seem to remember that there are different "grades" of block based
    on the compression strength. You have to get the right strength
    for the job or they can crush. The blocks that are made for ornamental
    work, for instance, are probably not as strong as the "regular"
    blocks used for foundations. Give your local dealer a call and ask.
    
    /tb/
    

    There probably are different grades of block, as noted in .-1;
    I'm not sure.  However, in general, concrete is VERY strong
    when loaded with a compression load.  It is very weak when
    loaded in tension.  As long as you load the wall straight down
    and the blocks aren't total junk, I suspect you could pile
    three or four porches on them and not worry.  Assuming the
    footing for the wall is of reasonable size....
    
    Steve

    Has anyone seen this type of concrete block? It's cast
    concrete with a block of decay-resistant wood set in the top. 
 
                            ----       
                           |    | <-- Block of decay-resistant wood
                          --------
                         /        \
                        /          \ <--- Concrete block
                       /            \
                      /              \
                      ---------------

    
    I've looked in several places in the Nashua area with no luck. I'll
    be willing to travel to northern Massachusetts or anywhere in southern
    New Hampshire to buy them.

    Thanks for your help,
    
    peter

    
    
    yea,  i've seen them......
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	in san diego
    
    

    haven't seen them, but did you try Corriveau-Routhier (sp??) in N.H.??
    They're downtown, and they carry a lot of brick/cement-type stuff.

    re .2:
    
    Yes, I did try there and they don't carry them. 
    
    re .1:
    
    I even have my next-door neighbor looking in Canada while he's on
    a trip! 
    
    I must read the wrong home improvement books. There hasn't been
    one project I've worked on where I haven't had to hunt for an odd
    part not available in New England.
    
    peter

    May not be an option... BUT have you considered creating your own
    block(s). I don't know how big they are, or if it is even possible
    to form your own. By your discription (little drawing) it seems
    as though it would be a reasonably easy form to make.
    
    JUST A SUGGESTION...!??7

    RE.0
      What are the dimensions of the block, and what is it used for?
    
      Knowing what it is used for might help to perk up a few neurons.....

Is it a footing for a deck/porch support post?  Do you *need* that shape?
(Other footings are available.)

If you need that shape, I'll second the make-it-yourself suggestion.

    You've been watching Hometime, haven't you. Why bother?. If your
    pouring cement into a sonotube just bring it up about 6" over the
    grade and call it quits. I wasn't impressed with the pre-cast footing
    since they just set on top of the cement pier with no drift pin and
    I don't recall seeing a drift pin from the pre-cast footing to the 
    wood beam. If you really wanted to and like the looks of the pre-cast
    you could make a wood mold and place over the top of the sonotube, 
    after you filled it with cement, then fill the mold and let set. Then
    you'll have a one piece support pier.  

    
    
    		They sell these posts here in Maine and when I built my
    deck I considered buying them until I found out the price!  about $25
    each and I needed 11 !!!!  The theory on the 'slant' is that frost
    pressure will not get a 'grip' on the post because it slants up like
    a pyramid.  the pressure then is forced up the post rather than the
    pressure forcing the post up.  Does it work?  I have no idea!

    re: .5 
    
    I believe it's a foot square and about 8" tall.
    
    re: make your own
    
    I've thought of the sono tube idea, but I'm trying to avoid the time
    and expense of digging in my very rocky yard and mixing cement. I have
    had a shed in my yard resting on concrete blocks for about 6 years with
    no shifting, so I thought these piers would be OK. Plus, the wood block
    on top would allow me to nail in 4 x 4s of varying height to adjust for
    uneven ground. 
    
    thanks for the suggestions,
    
    peter

.0 and .9, Peter,
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you haven't heard, but I think you're
taking a bit of a risk not *trying* to go below frost level.  I don't know
what you're attempting, but if it requires inspection, I think frost level
would be involved there.  Stories abound (a good friend, for one) about how
someone didn't want to bother with inspection and/or digging and their
porch/deck/whatever has survived umpteen winters.  There are a few stories
out there as well, however, about how frost has destroyed something.  It's
the old insurance story - weigh the risk.

As far as attaching wood goes, I've seen connectors that a you can imbed
in the top of your sonotube's concrete that a 4x4 can be nailed/bolted to.
'Course, if you want to know where to get these connectors, you'll have to
talk to someone whose memory is better than mine.

> As far as attaching wood goes, I've seen connectors that a you can imbed
> in the top of your sonotube's concrete that a 4x4 can be nailed/bolted to.
> 'Course, if you want to know where to get these connectors, you'll have to
> talk to someone whose memory is better than mine.

TECO post anchors, about $2.50 each.
Embed a 1/2" bolt in the concrete, threads up, and screw a nut down
to hold it in.  The 4x4 can be screwed, nailed, or bolted to the anchor
flanges.

Ditto on .10's advice to go below ground, especially if what you're
building is connected to a more secure structure, like your house.
A couple of inches of heave can exert an awful lot of force.

- tom]

    
    
    			They sell these things about 6 feet long with a
    	bolt or bolts inmbedded in the top to attach a teco connector to.
    	The price I mentioned earlier in this note of $25 was for long,
    	pyramid shaped posts like this.
    
    

    I'm planning to build an 8 x 12 woodshed, separate from the house,
    on well-drained and slightly sloping soil.

    If I was building a structure attatched to the house, I would without
    question go at least 4' down with concrete supports. (In fact, the
    Nashua building codes require it.) 
    
    As I mentioned in an earlier reply, I'm trying to save time and effort
    by using these piers instead of spending hours digging holes and mixing
    cement. It seems like a slight risk, but one worth taking for this type
    of structure. 
    
    thanks again,
    
    peter

OK.  Small, unattached out-building ... fine.

If you can't get the piers you're looking for, one or two heavy concrete blocks
(per corner) might provide what you want.  A couple of these might weigh the
same as your piers, and you may be able to use those TECO connector thingies
in the holes filled with your concrete.

    I saw these metal spike like things the other day at Currier's Lumber.
    They were about three feet long and made of angle iron, tapering to
    a point.  At the top, was a metal box.  In theory, you'd place a scrap
    4x4 in the box and pound the spike into the ground.  Remove the scrap,
    and then nail in your sized 4x4.
    
    Seemed too easy/good to work, but then again...
    
    If you try something like that, please reply so I can save digging,
    sonotubing, and concrete next time.
    
    I wouldn't go this route for something "permanent" either, but might
    work ok for an out building.
    

    We have a shed that my husband built 4+ years ago, using only wood and
    cinder blocks for the 'foundation'.  We had the luxury of the 'guy
    across the street' had a bulldozer, and levelled out the ground and
    packed it pretty well.  After that, my huband snapped a chalk line (on
    the dirt), drawing the rectangular shape that would become the
    foundation.  After that, he placed the cinder blocks, one by one, 
    constantly making sure everything was level and square.  He also ran 2
    rows of cinder block to support the center of the floor, lengthwise.
    Like so;
    
    			-------------------------
    			|   	|	|	|
    			|   	|Support|	|
    			|   	| Rows  |	|
    			|   	|   |	|	|
    			|   	|   V	|	|
    			|   	|	|	|
    			|   	|	|	|
    			|   	|	|	|
    			|   	|	|	|
    			-------------------------
    
    He then laid the 'sill' (which I THINK is PT) across the top of the
    cinder blocks, laid another layer and nailed to the sill, and then
    began construction 'as normal'.  As you've probably guessed, the shed
    is technically not a permanent structure (HAHA No building permit
    needed!!), but it's never budged.  It survived Hurricane Gloria without
    any problem whatsoever, so I'd say you don't need to make it be
    permanent.  There is (and has been for 2+ years) 2 motorcycles, lawn
    mower and typical 'shed-stuff' in the shed, and the floor shows no sign
    of weakening.  Not sure what thickness of plywood he used for the floor.
    My only complaint is that the doors have swollen some (no biggie). 
    Design is a Gambrel/barn design.  Let me know if you want any more info
    about this.  
    
    		Have Fun!
    
    			Patty

What I used to build my 12X16 DEtatched shed a few years ago is
to simply level the area with crushed gravel, lay down 2 6X8 PT timbers
and build a floor right on it.  That way if one area is a little soft or
settles the shed barly moves since the weight is distributed accross the
16 foot timber.  Its worked great.
gary

    	When you lay 12" wide concrete blocks, the criss-cross at the
    corners causes the blocks to be offset only 4".  (The blocks are
    16" long, so, laying one at 90 degrees leaves only 4" offset...)
    
    	Is there a way to get around this without cutting a lil' 4"
    block to increase the offest?
    
    	Is the 4" offset okay to use (Massachussetts) or do I have to
    have an 8" offset?
    
    Don Arey

The last time I layed 12" blocks I used special corner blocks

	----16"----

_ _ _ _	___________
	|   _______| 4"
Wall 	|   |      :  
_ _ _ _	|___|8"    : 
	    :      : 16"
	    :--12"-:
            :_ _ _ :
            :      :
	      Wall

OK?

    I have seen them done with an 8" block and fill in with bricks,the
    cinder bricks not the red ones. I'll attemp a diagram:
    
    
    ---------------------|------------------
                         |                 |
           12x8x16       |     8x8x16      |
                         |____ ____________|
       __________________|____|            |
                           /  |            |
                          /   | 12x8X16    |
                2x4x8's--/    |            |
                              |            |
                              |            |
                              |            |
                              |            |
                              |            |

    Thanks for the replies.  The solution in .1 seems like something I can
    do with by cutting the blocks I have.  Each 12" block has one finished
    end, so I could make the "special end block" fairly easily... 
    
    Don/

>   The solution in .1 seems like something I can
>    do with by cutting the blocks I have.

Only if you really like to waste time.  Go back to the place you bought the 12"
block, and BUY 12" corner blocks.  The are made in the shape mentioned in .1
specifically for making corners with 12" block.

Paul