Conference 7.286::home_work

	I'm sorry I can't help you with your quest but your note brought
a question that I have about the same thing.  I am currently remodeling my
kitchen and am concidering a built-in type oven and counter top range.  

	Does anyone know the price differences between this type of set-up
and the conventional range/oven?  Also are there any special conciderations
for installation of the built-in type I should be aware of in deciding to
do it or not?  I'd apreciate any info!

							Jorge'

A while ago, I needed a real narrow dishwasher... the smallest
anyone made was an 18"er from Sears... maybe they have an oven
to match.

    I am absolutely appalled that anyone would even consider such a
    small oven.  I think the standard wall oven is totally inadequite.
    The problem with kitchens today is that they are designed by people
    that don't use them.  I recently move into a house where there were
    surface burners and a wall oven.  Thank God the burners went up
    in smoke, it forced me to replace everything.

    I'd say the standard wall oven is barely adequate.  For serious cooking,
    probably not.  I don't do a lot of cooking, but I do roast my DEC
    turkey and occasionally bake bread, pie, etc.  Every time I do, I wish
    my wall oven were larger.  If I want to do more than one thing at
    a time, forget it!  You may not care about an oven, but the person
    who wants to buy your house may care about it.  (Except the art
    of cooking these days seems to consist mostly of thawing out TV
    dinners, so maybe it's not a practical concern after all....)
    
    Steve

    I'll agree with .4 -- a small oven can be a real pain, to anyone
    who wants to use it to cook something too big to fit into a "toaster
    oven".  But on the other hand, if you don't use an oven at all,
    why bother with one, particularly one that has to be mounted in
    a wall?  Why not omit it entirely?
    
    Dick
    

    I have a sharp electric oven.  This is one of those units that has
    a microwave on top and a standard oven on the bottom.  The problem
    is that the (standard) oven doesn't seem to distribute the heat
    evenly over the item I'm cooking.  When I cook something large like 
    a pizza, the edges burn and the middle is undercooked.  The oven
    is plenty wide, so it's not a matter of the pan being too large
    for the air to circulate around it.  I've tried putting the pizza
    at different heights, but this doesn't seem to make any difference.
    
    I just recently moved into this house; I've never had this problem
    anywhere else before.
    
    Any suggestions?

    Try letting the oven pre-heat completely before putting the pizza
    in. Since the coils are usually located along the outside, that's
    where the heat will first be located.
    JF

    
    
    My wife solved the problem by getting a piece of slate about �" thick
    and installed on top of the shelf and pre-heats the oven.  The slate
    gets hot and help distribute the heat to the crust of the pizza.
    The final result is a better cooked crust with less burn surfaces.
    
    

    re: 2
    
    Is the slate on the top shelf, above the pizza; or is it on the
    bottom shelf, below the pizza?

    
    
    The slate is under the pizza.  During the pre-heat cycle both the
    top and bottom element are on, then the setting is change
    to regular bake whereas only the bottom element is turn on.  Without
    the slate the pizza is close to the bottom element which result
    in a burnt crust.
    With the slate under the pizza it distributes the heat evenly to to
    bottom of the pizza, similar to the pizza oven. 

   Pizza is not a fair test of a home oven.  When I was a pizza cook,
    we set our oven to 580 degrees Farenheit -- most home ovens won't
    go that high.  In addition, the pizza sits on (or near -- on a screen)
    a hot surface -- metal is OK, ceramic is better.  This is the
    idea behind the home 'pizza stones'.  Getting a small oven to heat
    evenly at this high a temperature is no mean feat -- you will
    probably have to turn the pizza a couple of times while it cooks.
    
    			George

    My built-in oven died a couple of weeks ago and I had to replace
    it.  When I first turned it on, it began to smoke and smell *BAD*,
    like burning insulation, very irritating to breathe.  I opened
    the kitchen skylight and outside door, closed all the doors to
    the rest of the house, and left the kitchen to the oven for a while.
    It was about 35 degrees outside so it was not an ideal time to be 
    letting the breezes blow through, but there was little choice.  
    The oven is okay now.
    Anyway, to the point of all this: has anybody else had this experience
    with a new oven?  I expected a slight odor when I first turned the
    oven on, but nothing like what I got.  It was *BAD*.

    We have a self_cleaning (electric) convection/radiant built-in that
    is about 18 months old.  If there was any smoke and odor when it
    was turned on, it was not enough to remember.

    	Last year my dad and I decided to surprise mom with a brand new
    built in oven just in time for Thanksgiving.  We worked hard cutting
    the opening, wiring the stove and getting in place.  We finally
    finished up Thursday morning, an hour before the turkey was scheduled
    to go in.  We sat around drinking wine and watching football waiting
    for the bird to cook.  My mom became concerned because the outside
    of the oven wasn't as hot as her old one.  My dad and I were convinced
    it wasn't a problem.  Three hours, 4 bottles of wine, and 11 guests
    later, we came to the conclusion that we wired up the oven wrong.
    We opened up another bottle of wine and sent out for Chinese food.
    Mom was not pleased but we had a hell of a time.
    	When we got the oven wired properly it did smell and smoke for
    the first 1/2 hour.  I imagine it was burning off some of the
    protective coatings on the inside.

    
    Re: .8
    
    	Huh??!!!??  You finished installing a new stove just one hour before
    the turkey was supposed to go in for the family and 11 guests??
    If my dad and I would even remotely consider disturbing the stove
    on _that day_, especially with company coming over, my mom would
    have shot us on the spot for potentially destroying the culinary
    highlight of the year!!  There are some suprises best left unsprung...
    
    							-c
                                                                          

    
    RE: .6
    
    Yes, my new oven stunk pretty bad too.  I guess you just have to
    burn the oven in.  I have no idea what is causing such an odor but
    it really was bad.
    
    Phil

We have a self-cleaning oven in an electric range.  It seems to have a 
problem -- even though it leaves the oven perfectly clean!

When we make pizza, the oven always gets a cleaning cycle -- with the pizza
stone left in (to get IT clean), as the stone's instructions recommend.  
There has generally been some odor during the cycle, but not a lot.

This weekend, after making calzone on the stone, we ran the cleaning cycle
and it generated a LOT of acrid odor, which is clinging in the house,
including upstairs rooms -- and which passed its (unpleasant) taste on to 
bread and cookies that were sitting out in the kitchen to cool.

Some of this stuff condensed on a teapot which was sitting on the element
over the range's oven exhause -- it was a brown, gummy film (like semi-
cremated grease).

Is this in any way normal ????   THe calzone *did* ooze more cheese onto
the stone than pizza usually does.  But not what I would consider to be
an unusually heavy amount, and of course we had scraped off all we could.

Possibly relevant:  there is a latch lever (this is a GE range) above the
oven.  It seems to me, although I can't be sure, that it used to sound
like it was moving some kind of shutter that blocked the exhaust, in addition
to locking the oven door, and now it just sounds like it's locking the
oven door.  

Is this normal?  Is it avoidable?  Is it repairable?  

Thanks!

dq

  The pollution is almost certainly caused by the burning of the
  butterfat in the cheese, some of which may have dripped onto the oven
  floor. It will probably be completely gone after the next cleaning
  cycle, if it's not already. It won't hurt your oven, and though it's
  probably irritating, I don't think it can hurt people (in the small
  doses you're getting). It really stinks up the house, though, and does
  affect the taste of food made in the oven. If it's still there and
  really bothers you, try another cycle or two of cleaning, and open the
  windows a bit while you're doing it.

  I don't think that any change in the latching mechanism would cause
  this problem or have any effect on it. From what I remember of the
  self-cleaning GE oven we used to have, the sound of something like a
  shutter closing was the locking of a shield which covers the window in
  the oven door during the self-cleaning cycle.

    I bellieve the noise you here is a locking mechanism for the latch, so
    that as long as the clean cycle is on and the oven is at a certain
    temperature (HOT), you won't be able to release the latch and open the
    door (i.e. getting burned by super heated air). When I had a stove with
    the window, the shutter had to be manually raised over the glass.
    
    Eric

Advice needed!

This might not be the right place but I hope it is....
    
We bought a new house and it came equipped with an oldish built-in
Whirlpool electric oven.  The front panel has the following controls:

	Left half

		large		mechanical		stop time
	     minute timer	 digital
		dial		  clock			start time


	Right half

		function knob			temperature knob
		(broil, clean, bake
		etc.)

The question of the evening is: how do we make it self-clean?

Thanks,
	-- Art Z.

Set the start time and stop time (probably 2 hours if it's not real dirty,
3 if it is), lock the door latch (there should be some kind of lever at
the top of the door), and turn the knob to clean.

Contact Whirlpool for a manual.  I wouldn't take a chance that there are no
special requirements.

In my case, a Caloric left to us by the previous owner, the first two inches
of the stove opening and the door need to be cleaned manually.  Its
poor design means that the area near the door doesn't get hot enough to
burn the food
off; run the clean cycle will make that area worse, not better.

   Gary

re .2 (not self-cleaning on and near the door):

That seems to be an "industry standard."  There are probably some technical
issues, maybe something to do with the glass in the door.

    We just bought a house this past fall and have had a couple of problems
    w/ the ancient Westinghouse oven which resides....  First, the bottom
    coil broke(I repaired that), then the bottom coil failed all together. 
    This one ended up being the ceramic plug had cracked right at the
    terminals in the back of the stove(this is a built in stove). 
    
    Now the problem is...
    
    The bottom burner ONLY works on broil.  Sounds like it's just the
    temperature dial/switch but what should I look for when I take it
    apart?
    
    Thanks for the advice.
    
    regards,
    		-John

I was wondering if any of you have ever built-in your microwave oven.  We got a 
beautiful oven for a wedding gift, about a year before we designed the new 
kitchen.  Since it's a full size microwave, we want to get it off the counter.

We were planning to just cut an opening above the wall oven, build in a shelf
and leave a space all the way around.

Then they tell me that they sell a trim kit to make it look nice, but it costs
over $80, and I'm not even sure if it's metal or plastic.

An experiences you've had would be helpful.

Elaine

We had a "Microwave shelf" included in our new kitchen cabinets, it's basically
an open shelf with a sturdy floor and finished sides.  I installed an 
electrical outlet in the back and we just slid our microwave in.  I didn't
use a "trim kit"; you want to make sure there's sufficient air circulation
around the unit.

One thing to watch out for; if you raise it too high, it will be hard to
see in and to lift heavy items in and out.  We wish ours had ended up a few
inches lower (we didn't anticipate that the floor not being level would
mean that the counter height under the oven was about 1-2 inches greater
than elsewhere in the kitchen.)

			Steve

I built our Sharp microwave into a cabinet.

I got the trim kit for our microwave.  It is more than just a pretty face.  
It consists of ducting to carry the exhaust out the front of the grill work
that surrounds the micro once it is built in.  I guess that way there is no
build up (not that there would be much anyway) inside your cabinet.

Of course, the builder installed the electrical outlet in the wall to which
the cabinet was attached and, of course, we bought a micro that was about the
biggest around and, of course, that meant there was about a 1/2 sq ft area
where the outlet couldn't be and, of course, that is where the builder had 
put the outlet so, of course, I had to install a second outlet one stud over
to make it all work.

Stan

Re: .12

Steve, I liked like looks of the microwave shelf.  But I couldn't find a place 
to put it where it would not be sticking out its sharp corner in an awkward 
place.  That's why I asked about built-in.

Re: .13

Well, it turns out we bought the kit.  We called around and found it for $69.99.
We were surprised at how much ductwork there is.  It was just like Stan said.  
Just follow the directions, and the microwave is truly built in.

We did one thing differently.  Sharp wants to you cut a large opening, and support
the oven on two studs.  It turns out the airspace serves two purposes, and only
one is for ventilation.  The second purpose is to complete the black look around 
the edge.  As it turns out, we had a shelf that came with the cabinet, so we 
wanted to use it.  We made the opening slightly smaller to hide the shelf, but 
then we found we had to paint about 1/2" of the lower edge of the opening flat 
black, because it could be seen through the vent.

We are very pleased with the results.  The only thing is, if we had it to do
over again, I wish we knew about this kit before we started.  We would have
positioned the two ovens in the cabinet a bit differently.  We were lucky,
though, that our electrician put our outlet in the right spot!

Thanks for the input.

Elaine

    We recently moved into a house that has an electric stove with a self
    cleaning oven (GE, I believe).  The oven has what seems to be a double
    paned window...unfortunately there is dust caught between the panes - 
    making it look strange.  We are wondering, though, if this means that
    some seal is broken or whatever and that we shouldn't try to use the
    self cleaning feature.  Also would like to get the dust out of there 
    - it's very unappetizing looking.
    
    any suggestions welcome!
    carol

    Any one out there no anything about the Old Westinghouse in .7?  I just
    discovered today that the lower heating element in my has quit working.
    I checked the wiring behind the ceramic peices where the element comes
    together and they looked pretty good.  Some fraying on the white wire
    that I will check out but they looked OK for appx. 28 years old.  
    Nothing seems to be broken i.e. element, ceramic...
    
    Any comments will be a big help.
    
    Thanks,
    
    SV

I have a 2 oven Magic Chef range with the range-top on top of the lower oven,
a top oven and an exhaust vent over that. It is not older than 25 yrs coz the 
house I just moved into is 25 yrs old. Below the top oven and above the range is
a tube light built into this unit with a switch on the main control panel. The
light does not work. Assuming the obvious, I replace the (non_standard tube) and
flick switch. No light in my life! So then I rip open control panel and examine
switch for disconnected/loose wires. No sign of any problem there. Any ideas?

I suspect that the arrangement of the buld directly over the range has let stuff
from the cooking get into the bulb connectors et al. (It was filthy and I tried
to clean it). But I am stumped at this time coz I am not sure how to even test
for current with a flourescent bulb holder. Suggestions /debugging ideas please??
Thanks in advance,
Vijay

    	If it's that old and it's a flourescent, look to see if there is a
    starter. They do go and that could be the problem. In case you're not
    familiar with them, it looks like a little can ~1" high and 1/2" in
    diameter. It will normally twist off like an automotive bulb.
    
    	The other thing to look for is the ballast. It will usually look like 
    a little black box. If it's bad it may be leaking a black ooze, but it
    could also be bad without leaking. The ballast is nothing more than a
    step up transformer. You put 120v on the primary side (which you can
    check) and it puts out x000v on the secondary side (which you probably
    can't check).
    
    	Ray

I will check that. I did not see a starter coz I would have suspected that. 
If there was a starter and a ballast and power was coming in, I should be hearing
some clicks and hums, but there is no sound. I am wondering if the switch or
wiring died a miserable death. This is equally possible coz the stupid bulb and
switch is DIRECTLY above the range and DIRECTLY in the flow of any stuff from
stovetop to venting mechanism. I spent many hours cleaning out the mechanisms 
and it is still not clean. Will an ac line tester suffice to tell me if power
is actually coming to the bulb? Where can I get parts for this monster in the
Waltham area? 
Thanks for the info. Any further ideas would be appreciated.
Vijay

OK, I looked for a ballast and a starter near the tube and neither seem to exist.
Am I looking in the right place or are there flourescent bulbds that do not need
starters and ballasts? This is getting desparate coz I cannot cook in the night
with only the kitchen lights. Any further suggestions would be gratefully tried.
Thanks,
Vijay

	    There has to be ballast but not a starter.  If there were a 
	starter, I would expect it would be located near the lamp.  That's
	where I would put it.
	    Remove the lamp and check closely to see if the (I'm assuming)
	sheet metal is a cover.  It may be designed that you squeeze the
	cover to unclip it.
	    It is possible that the new tube you used is defective.  Does
	it shoe any signs of life when you turn the light on?

					Tim

Sorry for the long communication gap. So now I pulled off the glass cover and
looked at the tube. All I see is the holder ends for the tube. However, I did
find another push button kind of switch on the back wall of the range that seems
to make the bulb work sometimes. I also feel that there is a loose contact 
somewhere, but am not sure. Here is my latest list of questions
1. Would a perverse design engineer hide starter and/or ballast somewhere other
   than next to the tube?
2. Does the push switch on the back wall really have anything to do with the
   tube working intermittently? 
3. What can I try next?
Thanks for all the ideas. 
Vijay