Conference 7.286::home_work

One way to do it would be to cut the main pipe (if it is PVC) and attach a T or
Y.  To this you can add a drain trap and an extension of smaller pipe to 
accommodate the washing machine drain hose.

Gary

          what about the iron pipe they used in old houses like
mine? I think the pipe is iron?

I don't know the ins/outs of the plumbing code, but you should be careful
because gases can come into your house from the sewer pipes if you
don't have a trap... however, one way to hook in is to look for an access
cap. These are required by code very frequently (especially near drain 
pipe bends) so that plumbers have access for cleaning purposes. Find out
the size of the cap, and go to the plumbing store to get the necessary
piping to connect a vertical length from the cap (ask them about
necessity for a trap, and figure that in too). Then you can hook your
washing machine drain hose into the top of the vertical run of pipe.
If you connect to the cap with a T, hook your washer to on end of the T,
and another cap to the other T end, you may be able to stay within code.

Dave L

	As far as cast iron goes, most of my drain systemn is PVC but it
feeds into cast iron before it leaves the house, so you can definitely
connect a new PVC drain into one of the iron "clean-outs."  You should probably
connect it so as to create a new cleanout, as in

       |----------
new c.o.              .  .  .
       |--    ,----
          /  /
         /  /
                           
	Someone who reads this file must know how to properly make the PVC
- iron connection.
                             

You should be aware that just sticking a trap onto an existing drain pipe can
give you problems where the water in the trap is siphoned out when waste water
from above goes down the main pipe.  Then the trap becomes empty and sewer gas
leaks into the house.  To prevent this, drains are vented to the air as in the
diagram below.  The X's represent the existing drain pipe.

                                  To vent
                                     ^
               |X|                  | |  |X|
     | |   ____|X|        | |   ____| |  |X|
     | |  |  __ X|        | |  |  __  |  |X|
     | |__| |  |X|        | |__| |  | |  |X|
     |______|  |X|        |______|  | |  |X|
               |X|                  | |__|X|
                                    |____ X| 
       Unvented                          |X|
                               Vented

	The easiest way would be to add a section of PVC. You can just
cut out a section of the iron pipe, and connect the PVC using rubber (?)
collars that can be obtained at your local plumbing supply. My current
house has a section of pipe like this, and after messing around with
oakum and poured lead in a previous house, I'd say it's definitely the
way to go, unless you're worried about preserving the authenticity of
your old plumbing system.
	As .5 mentions, the vent is important. Fortunately, you can now
get in-line vents, which have a valve to prevent sewer gases from escaping'
so you don't have to worry about getting it through the roof. I believe the
generic code says that a vent must be within 10 feet of the trap.

-Bob B.

Yup, many ways to do this.  Why don't you hire a plumber?

By the way, I take it from the way you worded your question that the
washing machine is currently upstairs.  Why would you want to move it 
down?

- Paul

          Because Plumbers are too expensive....and
who wants a washing machine in the kitchen?! also the 
dryer is already downstairs.

paul

    Although I have not seen it done, 2 people who have seen a plumber
    join PVC to cast said they do it the same way cast is joined to cast
    - put the pipe in the hub, pack the oakum in, and pour the lead
    in and tamp it after it cools.  It seems to me that the hot lead would
    go right through the PVC but they said that is how it was done..

    
    I have seen PVC inserted into a cast pipe with a rubber stopper
    type fitting.  The stopper fits into the cast pipe, then the PVC
    is inserted into hole in the stopper. Seemed like the logical way
    to do it to me.  I tend to agree that the melted lead would melt
    the PVC.
    
    
    Ray

    
    Seems like I'm in the same boat on this one!!!I checked with a guy
    in the plumbing section at Sommerville and he said its done with
    a with a special hose clamp type connection (it looks like it will
    work).I have to move the drain for my kitchen sink and add a dish-
    washer.
    My questions are:  1. How do you cut cats iron pipe as there isn't
                          a clean-out that I can tape into.Or is there
                          another way to connect PVC to cast???
    
                       2. Since it will be a straight drop with trap
                          under the sink.There isn't any way I can connect
                          to the vent that's inside the wall.(I can
                          see the vent from outside)BTW,the castiron
                          pipe goes into the cellar floor.
    
    My reason for having to move the drain is....it runs along the wall
    and sticks out 3 1/2"-4" and I have to put the dishwasher in that
    space!!!
    
    Tony....
    

    
     I had to tap into cast iron pipe in order to put a drain in for
    a washing machine.(in the cellar) I rented what they call a soilpipe
    cutter but it was very hard to use. you have to give it one swift
    movement in order not to damage the pipe. ie..Crush the pipe instead
    of cutting. also if the pipe is very old it will crush anyway and
    you will have jagged edges to contend with and adding more pipe
    than you would have needed. anyway what i ended up doing was using
    a hacksaw (used about 10 blades) and i scored the pipe all the way
    around to about half the thickness then i used a hammer to break
    it away. this came out pretty good but took alot longer than i expectd.
    about half a day! Then i used one of those rubber couplings that
    you can get at spags or somerville lumber. mine was a Y like this:
    
    			|  |
    		    \  \|  |
    		     \     |
        	      \    |
     		       \   |
                       |   |
    		       |   |
    
     It has those worm screw clamps to attach it to the soilpipe and
    the washer now drains into some PVC pipe that has a trap in it and
     then heads off into the Y part of the Rubber coupling. Works great!

    
    I went to the house and looked again for a cleanout and I did 
    find one....it was located at floor level way in the back,it will
    be difficult to get at,but it will be easier to tap into than cutting
    the iron pipe!!Now my only questions are will there be any drainage
    or gas problems to consider ???         
    
    Tony.....

    The cast iron pipe cutter that I used had a rachet arrangement that
    you  cranked away at until the pipe broke.  The rental place suggested
    this one for tight quarters.  I used it to take out a plumbing column
    and I was amazed at how this tool changed an incredibly difficult
    problem into an incredibly easy solution.  It worked so well that
    I started breaking up the pieces into smaller pieces just for fun!
    (also made them easier to haul away).  I would highly recommend
    that tool for cutting cast iron pipe.
    
    Kevin

    I think you should have a trap between the dishwasher and the soil
    line to make sure you have no sewer gas leaking back into the house
    via the dishwasher's pump. You can feed the dishwasher drain into
    the downpipe from the sink (before it enters its trap) or you can
    build another trap. The latter decreases the chance of the dishwasher
    backing up into the sink (and onto the floor) when and if the sink's
    trap clogs up.

    I did talk to a plumber this past week and he confirmed what I have
    heard from other sources.  Using oakum and hot lead works for joining
    PVC to cast.  He said there is no problem using hot lead with the
    PVC.

    	While putting the last coat of poly on the last molding for my 
    kitchen I noticed a puddle of water.  I just ignored it and went on 
    with my business.  When the dishwasher kicked on I could ignore
    it no longer, there was a leak from where the new PVC connects to
    my cast iron drain.  No problem I said and grabbed my wrenches to
    tighten the pressure fitting.  However when I took a closer look
    I found a bigger problem.
    	The cast iron segment feeding into my cast iron sewer drain
    had cracked.  It was fine for three weeks and suddenly developed the
    crack.  After some investigation I figured out what happened.  I
    just got the garbage disposer working three days ago.  The way I
    figure it the vibrations caused the crack to develop or a smaller
    crack to propagate.  I put in some RTV and put on 8 hose clamps
    on the 12" cracked segemet.  It stopped the leak (for now).  I also
    plan on adding a couple of pipe hangers to lessen the vibrations.
    The pipe just has to hold together until next fall when I start
    my bathroom addition.  I'm going to replace all the cast iron with
    PVC then.
    	I really don't want to replace the segment.  I'm afraid if I
    mess with the stuff it will all come tumbling down.  If you have
    cast iron piping be careful with what you do to it!  Is there any
    other easy fixes that someone can suggest?
                  
    					=Ralph=

	I am plannning on hooking my house to the city sewer line.  The
	house is Holden, MA.  I want to re-landscape the back yard to have
	a lawn which consists of something more than the current leach field.
	I've had a couple of local contractors come out give me estimates.

	I've got a couple of decisions to make and I'd like some opinions.

	1. The existing pipe is cast iron and exits the back wall of the
	   about 32" below the sill (about 8" below ground).  One contractor
	   said he could either use the existing pipe or run a new PVC
	   pipe up through the floor.  The advantage of using the existing
	   pipe is that it would be $100 less and no new holes in the basement.
	   The advantage of the new PVC is that I could hook up the washer
	   to the new sewer line instead of the current drywell setup.  Should
	   I be concerned with the new (or old) sewer entrance leaking?  Could
	   I drain the washer out the cleanout of the existing pipe without
	   any backup problems?  There is an trap at the end of the cleanout.

	2. Has anybody else done this recently?  What did it cost?  Is there
	   anything else I should be concerned about?  My conversion seems
	   pretty straight-forward.  The tie-in is only about 30 feet away
	   from the current sewer pipe exit.

	3. If anybody in the Worcestor area has done this recently and could
	   suggest a good contractor, I'd appreciate it.  Some of the
	   contractors I called a month ago still haven't given me an
	   estimate!

	Phil

    This is the exact problem I had last year with my 70 year old 
    cast iron drain on the main stack. Fortunately, the section that
    failed was easily accessed in the cellar, below the kitchen, about six
    inches above the elbow which directed the drain towards the sewer line.
    
    My solution, which has worked without any additional problem, was
    to totally clean the area of the pipe surrounding the crack (which
    ia about 8" long. This included rust removal and a complete buffing
    with emery cloth. I then used a hammer and countersink tool to make
    an indentation at each end of the crack to hopefully prevent
    further failure. (I could have actually drilled a hole at each end
    throught the wall of the pipe though --- which probably would hve
    been a better approach).
    
    Then I  applied a thick coat of epoxy which is
    sold in auto parts store for engine block cracks. After the epoxy
    dried, I cover the area with pumber's putty, placed a rubber patch
    over the putty, placed a brass plate over the rubber patch, and
    used 5 hose clamps to keep the whole assembly together. I was careful
    not to tighten the clamps too tighly, fearing additional damage
    to the pipe element. 
    
    I have had no further difficulty since then. I believe the drain
    failed at that point due to the elbow just below which allowed
    water/waste to periodically collect during heavy use --- the rest
    of the stack appears o.k.
    
    One last point, perform the operation with the drain totally drained
    meaning no use about 6 hours prior to using the expoxy...
    
    Replacing the main stack would require mega work removing a lot
    of recently replaced dryway / tile which I've installed around the
    pipe chase on both the first and second floors of my house
    ... hopefully this fix  will last for a good number of years.
    
    -Bob
    

You might try Gustaffson Plumbing, 26 Lincoln St, in Worcester.  They
install/deinstall sewer lines in houses.  They should be able to refer
someone else if they can't do the job.  Rule of thumb, cost wise, at
least in Worcester, is $1200.00/day for construction work to replace/work
on sewer lines/hookups.  Btw, Gustaffson's phone #, 753-1463, daytime.

! HELP PLEASE HELP PLEASE HELP PLEASE HELP PLEASE HELP PLEASE HELP !

I have a similar problem:  Concord has installed a sewer line in our 
street, and we can now hook in.  I would appreciate suggestions/
recommendations on good sewer hookup contractors who would work in the 
Concord area.  

The septic tank is out in back of the house, and the sewer is out 
front.  This seems to leave two options:

	1. Have the sewer hook-up go all the way around the
	   house and use the old soil pipe, or

	2. Have the drains/soil pipe turned around to go out the
	   front.  (This would avoid putting the sewer hook-up 
	   under the area where we plan to put an addition!)

I would appreciate any thoughts or comments or experiences or 
suggestions that you may give.

Thanks in advance for helping to make this just a little bit easier.

Part of my addition includes adding a second floor over an existing 
mudroom/bathroom which together are around 9X18.  There is a small attic above
them now.

Last weekend I started looking more closely at what I'll be up against and I
noticed that the bathroom and kitchen (next room over) both vent through the
attic area.  SO, I have to move the vent pipe.  As it turns out, I'll only have 
to move it over around 3-4 feet so I don't suspect I'll have any plumbing
problems, will I?

The second question requires a diagram:

	====================X===============
	====================X=====***=======
	====================X=====*=========
	====================X=====*=========
	====================X=====#**=======
	====================X=======*=======
	====================X=======*=======

	|<----10 feet------>|<---8 feet--->|

what you're looking at is a bunch of 2X6 floor joists, a wall below (the X's)
and my vent pipes (the *'s).  The # is the point at which the vent goes through
the roof and simply plan to move it to the net outside wall,

My first order of business is to bring the floor joists up to 10" and therein
lies my question.  Should I simply cut a notch through each joist 4" deep to 
fit under the existing vent pipe OR should I drill 2" holes and run new pipe.
The latter solution would certainly involve the removal of less material from
the joists but would require a lot of plumbing.  If I notch the joists all 
I have to do is move the vent stack.  Since the joists would only have to carry 
the load over around 8 feet, I would think the notch wouldn't weaken them.

One other flakey thought I had was to simply run 2X4's across everything every
12".  This way I wouldn't have to cut anyrthing since the pipes would be above
the 2X6's and below the 2X4's. This would bring me to 1/2" the thickness of a
2X10 and I could shim everything with strips of 1/2 plywood.  However, this
doesn't smell right to me... 

-mark

    The reason for changing from 2 x 6 to 2 x 10 floor joists is for
    their strength in bending which varies in proportion to the moment
    of inertia which for a rectangle is proportional to the cube of
    the height.  If you shim to get the proper thickness, you won't
    increase the moment of inertia, hence you won't increase the strength.
    
    Nothing wrong with your sense of smell here.  The idea won't give
    the needed results.
    

    What do you mean by "moving the vent pipe"?
    
    If you mean rerouting it so that it starts from where it does now
    but takes a different path to the roof, I can't imagine a problem.
    
    However, if you mean you want to change the point where it ties
    into the system, then more info is needed.  The principal issue
    would be whether the move winds up increasing the length of some
    wet vent above the legal max (6 feet or so).
    
    For example if there is now a 6 foot run from a sink to a vent stack,
    and that run is also the vent for the sink (i.e., there is no
    independent sink vent or revent line to the sink), then you could
    have a problem if you move the vent stack far enough to make the
    sink run longer than code.
    
    Jim

re:.-1

you were right the first time, I just want to change the point it goes through
the roof and I believe you areed with me that it's ok...

re:.-2

I think you may have missed my point.  When choosing the size for floor joists,
one needs to worry about the distance they're going to span.  Since most houses
have rooms in the 12' range, 2X10's are used.  If you go out as far as 14'-16',
you better give serious thought to 2x12's and maybe even use 12" spacing rather
than 16" spacing.

In my case, although I have to go 18', there is a wall at 10' which means the 
maximum span is only 10' and would probably not require a 2X10 to carry it.
Furthermore, the part I need to notch only has to carry 8'.  My question is
therefore if I were to cut a 4" notch in a 2X10 would it still carry the 8'
distance OR should I drill the 2" hole through it and redo the venting.  Also,
are there any codes against running vent pipe through floor joists?

-mark

    I'd go with the drilled holes, as close to the centerline of the
    joists as possible.  Or, here's another alternative if you would
    be notching the tops of the joists.  Do the notching, then when
    the joists are in place put TIGHTLY-fitting wood blocks in the
    notches above the vent pipe.  The top of the joists are in compression
    loading, so if you put in blocks you'll recover a lot of the strength
    you lost by cutting the notches.  This assumes, of course, that
    there will be space above the vent pipe for putting in blocks after it's
    in place....
    
    As far as changing the position of the vent pipe, as long as you
    keep a slope to it so rainwater can drain down I see no problem.

    I don't really understand what you mean by "raising the 2x6 joists
    to 10 inches". Does that mean taking them out and replacing them,
    or putting new ones in alongside? I'd also like to know whether
    the wall is a load-bearing partition, and what kind of activity
    you plan to have in the finished attic. If the wall is load-bearing,
    and you don't expect to have a grand piano or water bed up there,
    you don't really have that much of a problem, especially if you
    are doubling the joists. I think you could get by fine with notching
    them, although drilling is definitely preferred, and the suggestion
    about putting in the blocks is good.
    
    The idea of putting 2x4's on top of the 2x6's would not give you
    quite as much support, but it would still be strong enough for light
    loads (I am assuming you meant laying the 2x4's in the same direction
    as the existing joists -- if you run them perpendicular you will
    get no increased carrying capacity at all).

    A lot has to do with that wall underneath. If it can't carry the
    load then you'd better go with the 2x10's and drill them.
    
    It's a little touchy giving advice on something like this without
    knowing all of the extenuating factors. Renovating is more of an
    art than a science, and it's hard to get a feel for the problem
    without actually seeing it. I'd hate to have you come down from the
    attic without using the stairs.

    - Ram

    
    	Your first order of business should be to check out the wall
    below your new floor. Assuming that this wall is on the first floor
    go down to the basement and check the joists immediately underneath
    the the wall. If there is a double joist and/or a lally column then
    it is safe to use your wall for bearing the weight of your second
    floor. If not then you will also have to install a double joist
    and lally.
    
    	Next, Judging by the information you provided you are going to
    increase the horizontal run of your vent pipe. The new vent pipe
    should not be any smaller than the largest vent pipe leading to
    it. You will also have to get a rough idea of the current length
    of the pipe (from the source to the end on the roof) and compare
    this to the new length. The horizontal run of the vent pipe should
    not be any more than 20% of the total length of the pipe. The reason
    for this is to make sure that there will be enough draw on the pipe
    so there is no vaccum or sewage odor drawn into the house, and also
    to let acrid gasses escape so they won't eat the vent pipes.
    
    	There are some simple ways to install floor joists with a problem
    such as yours without (cringe) cutting 4" notches in the joists. My 
    understanding is that you want to increase the floor height by 10", 
    keep in mind that a 2 x 10 is about 9 1/4" nominal thickness adding 
    a 3/4" subfloor to bring the entire height up to 10" is much better 
    than adding 3/4" plywood strips because of the additional stength.
    
    	It sounds as if you are going to raise the joists so they are
    4" above the present vent pipe. If this is the case then rule out
    drilling hole in a 2 x 6. A number 1 or common grade spruce 2 x 6 
    can be stretched out 10' when placed 12" o.c so there is no room
    for a 2" hole. If you can go 6" inches over the pipe or move the
    pipe down so that you can use a 2 x 6 over it this would be the
    simplest way out. If your vent pipe is PCV then don't be afraid of 
    all the "plubming" involved, 2" PVC is very easy and relatively 
    inexpensive to work with. 
    
    It sounds as if your project will require a lot of work so don't 
    think that this phase will be any different. You basically have 
    two choices of construction (1) leave the pipe where it is and build 
    around it (2) remove the pipe, put the 10" joists down and drill 
    holes for a new pipe remebering that the PVC is not very flexible 
    so you will have figure out a way to get the pipe through the holes 
    before the joists are nailed. If you decide to build around it check 
    out the following.
     
    
    			::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    			.......::*::..................
    			.......::*::..................
    			.......::*::..................
    		               ::*::
                        ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    			
        The * is the pipe. Essentially you build around the pipe 
    completely and double up the joists all around (denoted by :::).
    When you build up a joist you should use 16d nails every 6"
    alternated from top to bottom of the joist. If the "box" covers
    more than 3 or 4 joists then you should triple up the joists around 
    the box. This method is commonly used for stair case openings.             
    
    	You should be able to use one of these methods but if you still
    have reservations talk to you Building Inspector.	
     
    
    Glenn

>    Question: Is it true that the washer can discharge into the cleanout
>              Y ?

	I don't believe so check with your plumbing inspector, also you have
	to consider distance from the vent.
    		
>    	      Is it wise to put a T in under the floor at this time
>    for a future bathroom downstairs?
    
	Yes unless you'd like to dig up the floor later :-)

>    MAIN PROBLEM: Contractors are so busy installing the straight runs
>    for the whole town that they don't want to do this kind of job.
>    It is also difficult to find a contractor who also has a plumbing
>    license.  So far I am unable to get a bid on the job although the
>    mechanics of it have been explained in detail.
    
	We just had this done in March though we opted to go outside the house.
	A word of advice, if you have a regular plumber have him do all 
	your inside plumbing.  At the time we didn't know it but after 
	dealing with Moe, Larry and Curly Excavation Company, not they're
	real name but my wife knows who I mean ;-), we were real glad we
	had a real plumber do the inside.  By all means have it inspected
	before its buried.

	I'm from the South Shore of MASS so I can't recommend a plumber and
	I wouldn't recommend the excavator to *anyone*.  In lieu of that
	I will offer my sincere condolensces on this project in advance :-}


		Good Luck Randy

    Dumb question #1:
    How come hooking up is being left to the homeowners? When Marlboro
    did this (about 15 years ago) the same contractor hooked up all
    of the houses (I even still remember who did it - Bell & Flynn,
    Exeter, NH).   -Tom R.

    Hookup is always left to the homeowner.  When the sewers are first
    installed, it's usually easier and cheaper to have the company
    installing the main line also do the individual hookups.  In my
    particular case, the main line was installed some years ago and
    the previous owners decided not to hookup.  Now I have to go through
    the hassle.  They had to pay their share of the main sewer line
    but didn't flip for another $200 (then) to tie in!

RE: .6 

	This is my case too.  When the sewer was installed the current owners
	rented the property and would not spend a dime on maintenance or
	something extravagant as sewer.  Though I must admit that they had
	installed a new leaching field in order that they could rent it.

    What does it mean when on the roof is a one-foot-high metal structure
    that has an inverted trashcan liner tied over it with a rope?
    I have not gone up to the roof to examine the thing.  Is this
    thing a common practice?  If the trashcan liner comes off, will
    rainwater enter the house?
    

    Is this thing a common practice?  Depends on what it is.  Give us
    a bit more description, like is it round and 6" in diameter, or
    square and 2' across, or what?
    Look in your attic and try to figure out what it's connected to.

    The metal forms a rectangular prism.  The base is about 2.5' by
    2'.  The height is about 2'.  The metal looks like aluminum or
    galvanized iron.  There are small patches of pitch smeared on
    it here and there.  

    
       This structure sounds like it might be an air vent.
    The trash liner may be a temporary cover until the rest of the fixture
    is installed so that the opening to the vent is facing down. or
    it could be a flimsy attemp to keep small animals or bats out of
    the attick.
       If the vent dos'nt seem to go to anything then it might be a
    roofing vent otherwise you will have to find out just exactly what
    the vent goes to.
    
    
    
                                                   john c.
    

    My vote also lies with it being some sort of vent.  I've seen the
    garbage bag trick used on turbo vents in the winter.  What do you
    mean by 'rectangular prism' in reference to the shape?
    
    Have you had a chance to look in the attic below it and see what's
    there?
    
    -SWJ

    A rectangular prism is the mathematical name for a box shape.
    The attic is not that easily accessible.  I have asked my
    real estate agent to find out from the former owners what it's
    all about.

    This is getting interesting - how about getting on the roof by ladder
    and looking in from that direction?  If the attic is really
    inaccessable from inside then maybe this is the entrance....with
    lots of twisty passages going in all directions...   :^)
    
    Who knows what treasures may be locked in there.......

    Do you have whole-house air conditioning?  I've heard that they
    are putting the units for whole-house air conditioners in attics
    these days, and it might have something to do with that.  It
    doesn't sound like anything I've ever run into before.

    The house does have central refrigerated air conditioning, but the
    compressor is out on the patio.  I understand that the house used to
    have an evaporative cooler; maybe that unit was located in the attic
    or on the roof.  A plastic trashcan liner seems so temporary, so
    fragile.  I hope that the liner is not the only thing between the
    attic and the rain.  Perhaps there is some adhesive that needed
    to be kept dry for a week in order to set properly and so the
    trashcan liner has already served its purpose and is not
    important.  I just don't know.
    

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was some relic of the evaporative
    cooler.  If it is, then quite likely when they took out the cooler
    they didn't bother taking out whatever went through the roof, 
    they just covered it up.  In fact, maybe they didn't take out
    anything...the evaporative cooler may still be up there in the attic.
    Presumably, when that thing was doing whatever it did, rain/snow 
    was not a problem.  Whether that's still true or not is anybody's
    guess; I think the only way you're going to find out for sure is
    to go exploring.
    
    The adhesive idea is interesting, but probably not very likely.

    re .8 & .9 - I also vote for the "cooler" theory; however, we need to
    know where the house is. If it's to be a cooler, the house better be in
    Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, etc., i.e., somewhere with *low* humidity.
     An old cooler very probably has a ceiling vent in the center of
    the house and a switch/timer or thermostat nearby.  There should
    also be water and elictric runs to the rooftop portion.  Get up
    on that roof and take a close look! 

    I went up into the attic.  Under the garbage bag is a whirlybird-type
    turbine.  The geographical location is Van Nuys, California.
    Should I remove the garbage bag and expose the turbine to the elements
    or should I see if some sort of more substantial cover is sold
    somewhere.
    
    It rarely rains here, but when it does there's quite a storm.
    

    I'd pull the bag and start cooling the attic. That type of vent
    is designed to be weather resistent and should be fine to leave
    uncovered. BTW- I have one on my house here in colorado and havent
    had any problems with snow/rain getting inside. 
    
    -j
    

    You may want to inspect it carefully for watertightness. The bag may
    have been put there for a reason - people don't climb up on their
    roofs and bag a fan because they don't have anything better to do... 

    Ivbe just recently been told that it is a good idea to cover them
    during the winter because thjey can collect snow in the attic.
    I havent had any problems with mine that I know of but plan to
    cover mine this winter just in case.
    
    
    -j
    

    	    Over the weekend my 2nd floor tenant, who usually  takes
    showers, used the tub to take a bath.  When he drained the tub the 
    rush of water seemed to have met some restriction in the sewer pipes
    and a water overflow occured at the basement washing machine drain.
    I've owned the house for 12 years now and never seen this problem
    before so I figure it's probably rust buildup on the old cast iron
    drain pipe going out of the house. All other fixtures in the house
    seem to be draining well it just seems to occure with this large
    amount of water draining from the tub.  I was thinking of extending
    the washing machine drain pipe higher in order to eliminate the
    overflow and having the drain pipe snaked.  Has anyone seen this
    type of problem or have any suggestions?????????
    
    
    						Guido

    	When we first moved into our house, it had been empty for several
    days and one of the toilets was running water. (stopper in tank
    didn't fall) The result was an inch of water in the basement. Seems
    the main drains to the sewer couldn't handle that much water over
    that long a period.
    	We had the drains snaked out and found a *lot* of roots. I since
    had the offending tree cut down. (too close to the house anyway)
    We've had no problems since then. It was suggested to me that we
    have the pipes snaked out periodically to avoid this problem. I
    think that's good advice and will probably work for you too.
    
    
    

    I highly doubt that it's rust; cast iron doesn't rust up like that,
    I don't believe.  I will go with the root theory, or some other
    blockage.

     Pardon my dumb question, but, how do roots get through pipes to
    get inside ???
                                                         ,JAG

    They grow through.
    

Very often the roots are "attracted" by leakage at the pipe joints.  
They then grow into the joint and thus into the pipe.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    hey guido, i hate to be the bearer of this not so good news.
    but you got big trouble. you see i had this problem a couple
    of years ago, this monster tree in front of the house, its roots
    loved to grow and flourish inside my sewerage line. i had the
    dam thing augered out twice, works temporarily but after about
    2 years your back to square one. after the second time 
    i decided to call the town public works engineer. he recommended
    2 alternatives. 1. cut the tree (they own it) 2 new sewer line.
    he recommended new line. reason, in his opinion cutting the
    tree may not be enough, in his mind tree roots can continue to
    grow for some time. 
    note:::: the roots are not the reason for blockage, yes the do 
    restrict the flow, but what happens is they begin to snag and 
    hold onto things that try to go by.
    
    jim.
    

    I have talked with a friend this week who's father was a plumber
    and he cautioned when pouring lead to make sure there is NO mois-
    ture at all in the joint or the lead will explode in you face.
    
    	Steve

    Sound mighty familiar!! about a year ago I started having a same kind of
    problem and over time it got worse.  the cause was that when they've
    back filled over the cast iron pipe during the construction of the
    house, the left in some big bolders and over time it had managed
    to sink and break the pipe.  My question is, does it still happen
    when you drain large amount of water?  If your answer is yes!! 
    I hate to tell you the bad news.
    
    But if the pipe is broken!, remember your responsibility is the part
    of the pipe in your property.  Anything under the street would be
    taken care of your city "" free of charge "".
                               
    						good luck,
    						    /mike

    Whoa!  Unless you want to play quassimoto, skip the hot lead.
    I managed to bust a lead joint loose and my plumbing supplier
    sold me a putty that he said works just as well.  It's only been 
    two years now but the stuff has held.  
    
    When I had to separate the line and splice in PVC I used a neoprene
    collar to clamp unto the cast iron and the PVC.  That PVC splics
    is in the center of a horizontal run and with correct spacing of
    pipe strapping, the line doesn't sag.  With the effectiveness and
    longevity of neoprene, there really is no need to sniff lead fumes.

    
    
    	Building code in Mass says you must pour lead if connecting
    PCV to cast iron waste pipes. I already went thru this !
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    Steve, could you explain how this is done. Hot lead and "plastic"
    PVC won't mix.
    
    Jim

    The inspector in Weymouth (South Shore) ok'd using one of those
    rubber (neoprene?) sleeves for connecting PVC to cast iron...
    I hate inconsistencies...
    
    Doug

    
    	Not only did the plumber do this in my house but I was shown
    the code that says you must use lead, you can't use any rubber
    connectors for anything that has to do with drains. That inspector
    in Weymouth does not know the code or does not c My f
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Of course, if you're doing-it-yourself in Mass, it probably really
    doesn't matter, cuz your whole plumbing project is illegal...

    I am considering putting in a new bathroom and am looking for
    some insight.
    
    The sewerage line that exits the house it above this new location's
    floor. I already realize that I have to go with 'flush-up' or better
    yet, a sewerage pump system.
    
    My question: Since the toilet, sink and tub all have water exits,
    should I raise them off the floor to accomodate their waste pipes,
    or should I also break through the floor and sink their plumbing
    below the existing floor. (the floor it cement and I realize that
    I have to break through it to put in the waste sewerage pump system,
    but the additional work to sink the pipes as well is in question
    here)
    
    mark
    

    	It would be much easier to raise the units off the concrete
    floor (probably not necessary on the sink), but remember that you
    will most likely want to allow at least a foot for the piping,
    traps, etc., and room to work.  In some situations, that one foot
    may take away too much headroom.  Chipping concrete, no matter
    what you use, is not fun.

    I, too, found myself in exactly your situation. For what it is worth,
    I decided to dig into my concrete for the drainage for a sink, toilet,
    shower, and utility tub. I had to dig a hole for the sewer ejection
    system anyway; so what was one more 'L' shaped trench for the drainage,
    I figured ???
    
    I also decided I could not live with the loss headroom and could
    not see stepping up into the bathroom.
    
    I'm quite happy with it. We've had it for two years now. All is
    fine !

    
    
    	I was always wondering about this. Does anyone know how the
    heck you flush a toilet and have the waste go uphill under the
    street ? I have seen houses where they must travel 1/4 mile up hill
    to the main drain. Is there a special type of pump to handle somewhat
    of a solid waste ?

    
    	-Steve-

>    < Note 1840.3 by 3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth" >
>
>             I have seen houses where they must travel 1/4 mile up hill
>    to the main drain. Is there a special type of pump to handle somewhat
>    of a solid waste ?


    Yes.  One of the options for my septic system included an extra
    septic tank.  About 300 gallons of waste at a time would be pumped
    from this tank to a second uphill tank which was part of a "normal"
    septic system.

    HOW DO I THAW OUT A 90% FROZEN SEWER PIPE. WHEN LOOKING INTO
    THE CLEANOUT EVERYTHING IS FREE FOR ABOUT 8 FEET WHERE THE
    PIPE MAKES A BEND. SOON AFTER THE BEND I RUN INTO ICE. I 
    FOUND THIS OUT WITH A GARDEN HOSE USED FOR CLEANING OUT 
    THE PIPE LAST NIGHT. THE PIPE IS ONLY DOWN IN THE GROUND
    ABOUT 2 FEET. NOT ENOUGH EVEN FOR SOUTHERN N. H. IS THERE
    ANY CHEMICALS ON THE MARKET. SHOULD I JUST LET THE WATER RUN
    SLOWLY FOR A FEW DAYS? THANKS FOR ALL AND ANY INPUT.

    You might want to connect the hose to the hot water tank, this will
    melt the ice. The question is why it iced up in the first place.
    
    The pipe may have a dip where the ice is preventing the water to
    drain clear. Sediment builds up and soon... well you found out.

    Also is the vent clear? This would prevent the warm air to escape
    from the tank and keep the line fron frosting up.
    
    2 feet seems about the same depth for my pipe. Did you check on
    the depth of the pipe where the ice is? At this point it may be
    very close to the surface.
    
    Richard

    After checking the vent you might want to try several kettles of
    boiling water poured down the lowest drain in the house.  It worked
    for me.  
    
    We had to have the section of pipe that iced replaced due to tree
    roots that had collapsed it, causing ground water and silt to get
    in and form the ice blockage.

    
    
    There is a girl at work who has the same problem with her
    drain/trap/sewer line.  She now pores winshield washer/antifreeze
    down the toilet when it it cold.  It hasn't frozen since she
    started doing it.

    I agree with .1 that there may be some other problem causing
    the frozen pipe.
    
    The pipe from our house to tank is buried four inches at most. 
    This is the fifth winter without problems, and there have 
    been some cold winters in Harvard, MA where there wasn't even 
    any snow cover for insulation. 
    
    In fact, I know of one fellow in Bolton that has his pipe running 
    above ground because of ledge. His leach field is down a steep
    embankment and there is quite a pitch to the pipe. They had to
    put in baffles to slow the waste down before it got to the 
    tank. I don't believe he has had any problems with freezing either.
    
    
    I second the notion of hooking the hose up to the hot water 
    line to clear out the ice. 

    Steve

    THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN PARTIALLY SOLVED BY STEAM CLEANING. NEXT I
    MUST HAVE THE SEPTIC SYSTEM PUMPED A S A P FOR I BELIEVE THE
    BACTERIAL ACTION HAS EITHER STOPED OR SLOWED DOWN FOR SOME
    REASON.

I am not, by any means, suggesting that you don't have this pumped, 
but in the mean time, you can start bacteria up again by flushing 
yeast or RID-X 

My parents used to be concerned that at times of heavy washing, the 
soap would cause the bacteria to die.  They used the RID-X.

When my son installed a toilet paper holder in the first floor bath,
    he accidentally drilled two holes in the plastic waste pipe coming
    down from the bathrooms on the second floor. Does anyone know how
    I can repair the pipe short of opening the wall and replacing the
    section with the holes in it? 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I suspect that the holes aren't that big. So something like a silicone
    sealer should take care of it, or another glue/filler in that 
    category. I would not rip open a wall to replace that PVC pipe just
    for that. Open a small area around the holes so you can repair it
    thn make sure it doesn't leak. Later put on your paper hanger, or
    plaster it up.

    I think your going to have to cut out some of your drywall no matter
    what,I dont't think you could inject anything thru the holes to
    seal off the pipe.Try purchasing a rubber boot that is used to join
    abs pipe together and several 4-5" hose clamps,cut the boot,fit
    it around the pipe and use the hose clamps to secure it,try putting
    clamps right over the holes.
    Best of Luck
    Les.
    

it's really not that serious right?  i envision a couple of small holes, 
like 1/8 inch, right?

anyway, in the engineering stockroom they have waterproof epoxy in those 
little double-bubble packs.  since it's vertical and the holes are small 
i'd open up a hole in the wall just big enough to poke a pencil through and 
cover the holes with this epoxy.

if the holes are bigger, like 1/4 inch or more, then i'd carve out a piece 
of pvc to the right shape (round?) and glue it in with pvc cement.  the 
stuff sets in about 30 seconds.  if you're good you could still do this 
through a fairly small hole.

it seems to me the only important point is to try not to leave anything
major protruding into the pipe while getting a water and air tight patch.

craig

hey how about this - get a coupling for the size pipe in the wall.  cut it 
lengthwise in half.  now you have a rigid pvc patch exactly the proper 
radius to fit over the damaged pipe.  glue it on with pvc cement.  this 
melds or welds the two together.  this has to be the 'best' fix.  wether 
it's required is up to you.

    
    Well ....
    
    Assuming you've got plastic waste pipes (he didn't go through metal,
    did he?)
    
    There a couple of things you might do to "jury-rig" it, if
    there is no access panel to the plumbing.
    
    1.  Cut a small hole in the wall and melt the screw holes with a narrow
    soldering iron, then patch the wall. 
    
    2.  Cut out a small piece of the wall.  Cut small a couple of small
    pieces of ABS or PVC (see what scrap you can find in a plumbing or
    hardware store that would fit over the holes, and cut it with hack saw
    or something, but be careful not to hurt yourself).  Clean them with
    acetone (pipe cleaner), and glue them with PVC/ABS cement, over the
    holes (making sure to use excess glue, for a good bond). Then patch the
    wall. 
    
    The "better" way to fix it is to cut a bigger piece of the wall
    cut out a small vertical section, and glue a connector pipe
    in the middle of it (either female-female or male-male, depending
    on what you can find to fit it.  Then patch the wall.
    
    -tm
    

    A lot depends on the size of the holes.  You'll have to take out 
    part of the wall to get at the holes to fix them, but you shouldn't 
    have to cut out any of the pipe; you ought to be able to patch it 
    satisfactorily.
    
    I seriously doubt that the melt-with-a-soldering-iron idea would
    be satisfactory; at least, I can't imagine that I could ever get
    it to work in a way that would satisfy me.
    
    If the holes are small, I expect you could take some "Silicone II"
    calking and squeeze in enough to plug the holes.  You'd want to
    be sure you didn't squirt too much, *through* the holes and
    into the pipe.  The fact that the pipe is vertical lessens the 
    concern, but you still want a basically smooth surface on the
    inside.  A couple of little blobs in the inside wouldn't matter 
    though, and you would want to be sure you did get the holes 
    completely filled.  You could do this through some pretty small 
    holes in the wall, so this would require the least bashing
    of the wall and the least repair to the wall afterwards.  
    
    The idea of cutting a patch (or two) out of the right-sze (and right
    kind) of coupling and gluing it on sounds pretty good.  The curve 
    would match perfectly.  If the hole is, say, 1/4" in diameter, 
    make the patch about 1" square so you have plenty of overlap, goop
    up the patch and pipe with the special PVC cement (or whatever kind
    of cement you need for the kind of pipe you have), and hold the
    patch in place for about half a minute.  The stuff glues extremely
    well.  Or cut a big patch, enough to cover all the holes at once
    (the best way) and glue it on in one piece.  
    
    The rubber coupling and hose clamp idea would probably work too,
    but I think the glue-on patch would be more satisfactory and
    perhaps easier to install.  You'd have to slit the rubber coupling 
    to get it on, and feed the hose clamps around the pipe.  Do-able,
    but fiddly.

      1) The only possible way to avoid opening the wall is if you could
      cut the pipe in the basement and at some  exposed  place  upstairs
      (or  ?)  and pull out the entire section to repair it.  This seems
      very unlikely.
      
      2)  Glue,  Melting and clamp on patches seem like more bother than
      they're worth, and a potential future headache.  Fix it right  the
      first time with little more effort.
      
      If  their  is  only  one  hole,  cut the pip right at the hole and
      install a union -- thats the fitting used to join two sections  of
      pipe  together in a straight line.  If there is more than one hole
      you may need to cut out a short section on  pipe  and  replace  it
      with  a  new  section  using  two unions -- one at each end of the
      replacment section.
      
      With  plastic  pipe  you  have the choice or solvent welding (much
      like gluing) or of using unions that use compression fittings. You
      might  also  find  the  rubber fittings, secured with hy-gear type
      clamps, but I'm not sure  these  are  approved  for  water  supply
      pipes.   I  suggest using the compression fitting type.  They cost
      more but are much easier to use on wet pipes, plus you don't  need
      to  wait  for  the  solvent  weld to harden before you can use the
      water again.

    re: .6
    Re-read the base note.  It's a waste pipe, not a water-supply pipe.

>< Note 2535.7 by MTWAIN::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)" >
>
>    re: .6
>    Re-read the base note.  It's a waste pipe, not a water-supply pipe.

      I could have sworn... Oh, well, sorry about that.
      
      For WASTE pipe the rubber sleeve/hy-gear clamp sounds like the
      best idea.   The problem with glues is that there's likely to be
      dirt or grease that will prevent them from adhearing properly.

    I don't think the use of a union cut in half and glued on will work
    without substantial modification of the union.  Most unions that
    I'm familiar with have a cross section that would not allow the
    union to fit externally as a patch.  Generally, there is a lip that
    accepts the pipe but will allow it to be inserted just so far.
    
    		___
    		| |
    		| ---
    		|   |
    		|   |
    		
    
    I would question to make sure if you are dealing with a waste pipe
    or a vent pipe.  If it's a vent pipe then enlarge the holes in the
    wall large enough to get the tip of a caulking gun of silicone seal
    in and do it.  Fill the holes in the wall with sheetrock mud and
    you're done.  I'd be real tempted to do the same thing if it's the 
    waste line.  
    

    	It is a common practice in Atlanta to see people putting plastic
    bags over the turbine vents in the winter.  They even sell plastic
    "bags" with elastic openings to fit the turbine vents.  The theroy
    is that you are sucking any warm air out of the attic during the
    winter months and you are paying to heat your attic over and over.
    The poor man's way is to put a plastic bag over the turbine and
    tie it with kite string or some tape during the winter and remove
    the cover during the spring and summer when you are trying to vent
    the heat from the attic.  Not very attractive and I am sure many
    will argue that the a vent is supposed to vent the attic but many
    feel that the heat loss is too great to offset the positives of
    ventilation. (or more likely to not know the effects of ventalation
    vs heat loss).
    
    Bruce

>    "bags" with elastic openings to fit the turbine vents.  The theroy
>    is that you are sucking any warm air out of the attic during the
>    winter months and you are paying to heat your attic over and over.
>
>                                                           ...many
>    feel that the heat loss is too great to offset the positives of
>    ventilation. 

Are you heating the attic for a reason?  If nobody goes up there, then 
it is pointless to "save" the heat that trickles up there, yes?  In 
snowy places, it's even counter-productive to save this unused heat, 
since it causes ice dams.  

You're generally not paying to heat the attic.  You're paying to heat
the house and some heat escapes into the attic before escaping into the
great outdoors.  The idea of venting is to speed it on its way to the
outdoors because the heat in the attic causes more harm than good --
at least in places where snow accumulates on the roof.  In Atlanta, I
don't imagine it matters how long it takes the heat to seep away. 
(There'll be some shortening of roof life, but if you vent in the 
summer, then I don't think it would be significant.)

						>>>==>PStJTT

    The bags mentioned in .15 are commonly used in Phoenix also.  Yes
    it does get cold here at night during the winter :-)
    
    Mike
    

    Roof turbines that are used here in PHOENIX are to vent the attic
    of the tremendous heat buildup during the summer, thus reducing
    the cooling load in the house. During winter i cover the turbines
    to help retain the heat in the attic, thereby reducing the heating
    load in the house. We very rarely have snow buildup on the roof.
    8-)
    Ken
    

    I had a bad sewerage smell in my basement yesterday. All my drains
    and toilets drain fine. No leaks in the basement. No smells upstairs
    nor outside. This morning - no smell. This happened last year. Same
    symptoms. Had the tank pumped and the guy said it wasn't full and
    the lines were draining into the tank fine. Nothing since then until
    yesterday. Today everything is fine. Any help???

    Do you have a washing machine in the basement by any chance (or
    any other type of drain)? Sometimes, the water in the trap of a
    drain evaporates enough to unseal it. As soon as the drain is used,
    water refills the trap and again seals it. Just a thought.
    
    Eric

        I  am looking for Ideas!   I  also  have  a  plastic  waste  pipe
        leaking.  My leek is in the basement in the joint of a 'T'.  
        
        The problem is that the 'T' is in an area  of  the  pipe that has
        about  1"  straight  pipe on the top before entering the overhead
        and  about  1"  of  straight  pipe out the side before entering a
        'T' which connects  to  the vent pipe that goes through the walls
        and roof.  And  you  guessed  it  the  vent  'T'  has  about 1" of
        straight pipe before entering the overhead.  This all means that 
        to replace the leaking piece I would have to replace about 50% of
        my waste pipe plumbing. 
 
        So is there something I can repair the leak with?
        
        Paul H.
               
               

        I  have  just  finished  cleaning  up  a  backup  caused  by  the
        "children" using a 1/2 a roll of TP per sit!  (No jokes please) I
        haven't found out  who did it but the next time it happens I will
        replace the roll with sand paper! 
        
        Anyway after a few days of the smell I am  getting  sick.    Does
        anyone have any ideas on how to kill the smell.    I have steamed
        the carpet 3 times.  The last time I used pine disinfectant.  And
        the smell goes on!  
        
        Paul H.
        

Paul,

If you get sick, the gas just might get explosive. No joke
intended. I remember a condo development in Foster City near San
Mateo (Calif) that blew out the whole quadplex when the guy sat
down to enjow the sunday paper, lit a pipe and that was all that
was left of the whole outside wall. I also have to add that the
development was built on land fill so it may be the escaping of
methane gas that helped it along.

The gas problem usually comes through the floor drain in the
utility room if you don't pour about a quart of water down that
drain.

cal

    
    I had a slight leak, at a PVC joint like you describe.
    (I was installing the stuff), The plumbing store guy
    told me to goop on a thick layer of PVC glue. I did and
    It worked just fine. You can get it next to the PVC
    at any home center that sells PVC. (Channel/Rickel/Goodbuys etc...)
    
    Good luck!
    Pete
    

    The Town of Chelmsford is switching over to town sewage and I'm 
    organizing our neighborhood so that we can get a reduced rate
    for the pipe laying. We want to be one of the first wave of
    streets to convert because so many of us have septic problems
    and we don't want to pay any more than required to fix our
    problems.
    
    So far, I've got 8 houses in our group arrangement and we've
    had several contractors come out to inspect each of the houses.
    It seems pretty straight forward --- have a bunch of contractors
    give us estimates, get together and agree on one, and have the work
    done.
    
    The Yankee in me says there's a lot of room for negotiating. For
    example, since we'll be one of the first streets, can we get a
    further cost reduction because we've given him an 'in' with 
    other town residents? How can we be sure that the one we pick will
    pay close attention to town code? It seems to me that a 5 year
    100% warrantee should be reasonable. Can we insist that they
    reseed the torn up area? How do we make sure that we're *really*
    getting a cost reduction and not just being told that it is?
    Is it acceptable to dicker prices - if so, is 25% too outrageous?
    
    I know other towns have been through this. Any words of wisdom?

    OK. I read over  note 1022 and did find the suggestion about getting
    the pipe inspection before it's buried to be good. But the rest of
    my questions still stand.
    
    We've heard rumors that some street pipe has had problems because
    the contractors filled in the trench with boulders, etc. that
    crushed the pipe.... That's why we're wondering if we should
    insist on a warrantee.
    
    We have no ledge on the street - all sand. So, apart from the
    hassles of switching interior pipes, the project should be straight
    forward. But how do we know if we're really getting a group-rate
     bargain or if the whole thing borders on scam?
    
    Advice from those of you who have been through it?

>    forward. But how do we know if we're really getting a group-rate
>     bargain or if the whole thing borders on scam?


    Get more than 1 estimate!

    just one note that i have for you.
    
    i have been told by a couple of different people that when a
    new water or sewer line is being put in that the gravel taken out
    can not be reused, (makes great fill for steep grades-fyi).
    the fill that is put back in has to be of the crushed rock and
    finer gravel, preventing damage to new pipes.
    new sewer was put in on my street, an expanding trailer park up
    the road forced the  issue, residents on the street were offered
    a tie-in at a rate of $1,200, this did not include cost of pipe
    from the house to the road. My septic (lucky) is still holding up
    fine, but at least i know that sewer is there for the future if
    needed. I thought this connection rate was very steep, but i feel
    that the owner of the park was trying to generate $ for the project.
    hope things work out for you.
    
    jim

    A thought.
    
    Don't now how old your septic system is, but...
    
    Septic systems have a finite life. Have you considered the possibility
    that when it is NECESSARY to connect to the sewer system, the cost is
    apt to be alot greater?
    
    
    			herb

   Hello folks,

   I'm currently in a situation where the temptation of being somewhat
   devious is overwhelming.
   Moved to a small town a year ago, bought a new cape in a new 
   development, 2nd floor unfinished.
   Well, after choking abit on the 25% property tax increase, I've
   decided to call in the contractors and get some bids on finishing
   the upstairs. Just found out that this wonderful little town has 
   decided to replace a main line sewer system.  Now theres a
   nice little $750 sewer tax per (new) bedroom.
   I do plan on a 2 bedroom, 3/4 bath upstairs, but hadn't planned on
   another $1500 tax donation.
   Devious steps in.....
     "hello, town hall "
     "yes, you'll need a permit if the work > $500"
     "What ? the town doesn't have a building inspector ?"
     "a select_person comes to peek?"
     
   I've met with several contractors, and they all agree there's a
   chance that I can sidestep this.  They don't seem to care, as long
   as the permit is up. 
   I may add that, there are > 14 other unfinished capes all around
   me. Allot of them are calling in fathers, uncles, etc. and not
   even applying for the permit.
   
   So, whats an honest (well almost honest)  person to do?
   Submit a sketch of the "1 side upstairs Family Room" ?

 thanks in advance,

 mike

    
     You might want to read the notes in here on Building permits. Its
    sounds like the builder might have known this was going to happen
    and maybe in order to keep the price of the houses down decided
    not to finish the second floor. I know someone in haverhill that
    bought a cape with an unfinished second floor, and the house was
    listed on the initial permit as having an unfinished second floor.
    If he were to go and finish it himself with no permits he could
    get slapped with a heavy fine when they re-access him later and
    find out. 
    
     This sounds like a large project, which means lots of wiring and
    plumbing. Which means that if your house burns down from faulty
    wiring and the insurance company checks for permits, since maybe
    they already know that it has an unfinished upstairs. They won't
    cover the claim. I've never heard this, but I wouldn't risk it.
    So if you take out a electrical permit then by default you'll need
    a plumbing permit, and a building permit its a catch 22. I have
    a neighbor this recently happend to. Luckly the building inspector
    let it go, but get this he signed for the plumbing, and electrical
    inspector. Its a tough call to make. You have to feel comfortable
    with the decision.
    
     
    
    

Since you asked,,,

This sounds like a perfectly good time to learn  how  to finish an upstairs all
by yourself.  It also is a good excuse to  buy  the  right,  new  tools (toys).
Point  is,  it isn't all that difficult.  The most difficult  part  is  in  the
learning.  

In some communities, they add the lines and then take a check out of the houses
on the line to verify  the  number  of  finished  bedrooms.  Therefore, I would
suggest you use the time until this  is  done  to read and plan.  After the new
water lines are in and you are sure  nobody  is  going  to  count you bedrooms,
begin remodling  ---  

and permit be damned!!!

That is an attitude I feel no need to apologize for.

Remember, our country was founded by patriots who excelled in bending the  law.
We need to keep the flame lit.

Dave

>   So, whats an honest (well almost honest)  person to do?

Since you cast the question in terms of honesty, the answer depends on which 
you want to be -- honest or almost honest ("dishonest" is the correct term.)  
If your concern is honesty, then you know what you're supposed to do.  If not, 
then it just sounds like you're making justifications ("other people are doing 
it...") and looking for a support group to make you feel better about doing 
what you know is wrong.

    
    I just renovated the interior (new walls, electric, plumbing,
    structural stuff) of my house. I did most of the work myself, 
    with the help of a few friends who were fresh-out-of-school
    architects, and framers). 
    
    I was very nervous about doing something wrong, which could
    have serious if not lethal consequences. So, I payed my $150
    for permits, and discovered that if you are reasonable, the
    inspecters, and town engineer can be an asset.
    
    The plumbing inspecter basically checked my design and work as
    I did it, and made many suggestions for the "right-way" to do
    things. (He was a retired plumber, and took me under his wing)
    The town engineer worked with my archetect, and my archetect
    learned about how the politics and psychology of a small town
    building department works. The electrical inspecter also
    helped by telling us in advance exactly what he wanted to see.
    
    By the time they came by for the inspections, they all came in
    and we knew each other, and they saw and knew how everything
    was done. So, it was a formality.
    
    Now, I have the piece of mind of knowing I did it the right way.
    Eventually, they may reassess my taxes, but for now the only
    thing I did for all this advise and piece of mind was
    pay for a permit, and act reasonable.
    
    IMHO
    Pete

    Regardless of what you decide permit-wise; you should consider the
    DIY route....at least for the insulation, framing and sheetrock.
    The electrical really isn't bad either, especially if you've done
    any sort of home wiring (changing outlet, switches etc) before.I
    have always found the Reader Digest Home Repair book (Yellow-
    Hardbound) to have great DIY diagrams and explanations for all 
    sorts of circuit hookups.  
    
    Same advice might go for plumbing.....did the builder "rough plumb"
    the second story leaving stubbed off water pipes and drains/vents?
    If so, the plumbing should be a peice of cake to finish your hook-ups.
    If you have to start from scratch on the plumbing many towns require a
    licensed plumber to do the rough plumbing........that brings you back
    to permit question.
    
    If the rough plumbing and electrical lead-ins are present in the
    unfinished area, take the challenge and DIY........and skip the
    permit.  The rough plumbing/electrical would have already been
    inspected during original construction. Just my $ .02!!
    
    Jonathan

    Exactly what is this $750 tax?  Is it a permanent, but one-time tax on
    the construction of new bedrooms in the area (you pay it once for the
    privilege of adding bedrooms)?  Is it an annual assessment (paid each
    year)?  Or is it a one-time static charge (you pay it this year for
    each bedroom you currently have)?  Does the sewer/water department keep
    track of the number of bedrooms in the house, separate from the tax
    assessor's office.  (This seems a plausible possibility to me, because
    the two departments have different concerns.)
    
    Depending on the exact circumstances, there may be ways to avoid the
    tax (a technical term meaning you legally and honestly don't have to
    pay it), without evading the tax (a technical term meaning you've
    committed a crime).  
    
       Gary

    Hello again,

    Thanks to all of the responses so far.

   re.1.  You've uncovered 2 of my worries. The first of finding
          myself in the house re-access situation sometime in the 
          future (which could render a fine larger than the initial
          "bedroom sewer tax" ?).  And second, heaven forbid, if
          a tragedy were to happen, the insurance company would also
          be unaware of the bath and 2nd bedroom. 
      
   re. 6. 1 time tax. I'll have to look into the tax further.
          there just may be some legal way to avoid it.
          thanks for the avoid/evade clar.

   Ok,  I really hadn't considered the DIY route, till now anyway.
   The ole 'just aint got the time' / 'where the hell do I start'
   excuses have carried me till now. I've never undertaken any
   project in the 'building' world, (aside from the dryer vent install
   which I took great pride in).
   The water stubs/heating stubs/toilet plug have all been brought up 
   thru the floor.
   Also an electrical outlet on each side of the house (separate circuts).
   Even cable an' phone.
   I should be receiving the bids/estimates this week or next week, an
   I got a feelin' it aint gonna be cheap.  Am considering the 
   'take the $, invest in the equipment, do as much as I can' route.
   But the fear of 'screwing up, call in pro's, pay 2wice as much'
   is also present.
   Have always been a fan of Bob an' Norm, maybe I'll give'em a little
   competition. ; )
   Is there an entry on Books for the "fairly inexperienced" ?

   Thanks again.

    Did you check into the definition of a 'bedroom'? When we tried to
    sell our housse we were told that if it didn't have a closet, it
    wasn't a bedroom. Maybe there's a loophole somewhere in the definition
    of bedroom that could save you money - closets added later ...
    

    I looked but could not find this topic so here we go. I need some info
    as to how to go  about removing a section of the old cast iron soil
    pipe and hooking in to it wit PVC.
    
    My main concern is getting the old tiolet flange out of the system. Do
    these just unsolder? And if so, can I do this with a small benzamatic
    (sp) torch. Anything I should look out for?
    
    Thanks,
    Jack

    I doubt that this is soldered.
    
    They are usually packed lead.  You put the joint together and put
    in this rope stuff ( forget what it's called ) lay in some lead
    'wool' - lke steel wool only lead and tap, tap, tap with lead packing
    tools and a hammer.  The packing tools are a short chisel like tool
    with a flat end.  Instead of the end of the tool cutting it pushes.
    Thus when hit enough times the lead becomes solid and fills all
    the pores and crevices in the cast pipe so that no leaks occur.
    
    The other way to do this is to pour molten lead into the joint.
    Mine was not horizontal so if I poured it would only run out of
    the joint thus the packing method above.  I just remembered the
    molten lead technique as I was typing that.
    
    That's probably why it looks like the joint has been soldered.

    
    Oh yeah,
    
    You should be able to just pull the joint apart.

    .2    You mean that I should be able to separate the existing joint by
    just pulling on it? No heating required??
    
    Once I get the old flange off of the existing drain pipe I am going to
    move the toilet and re-hok it up using PVC into the iron drain. I'm OK
    as to how to do the hookup but am concerned about dis-assembly part.
    
    Just pull on it huh?
    
    Jack

    
      The joint (leaded iron-pipe joint) should come apart by wiggling
    sideways and pulling. There's NO WAY a Berz-a-matic torch could
    heat up a cast-iron pipe enough to melt the lead in the joint.
    (well maybe, if you held it on there for 1/2 hour!!;^) )
      To re-join the cast-iron to PVC pipe, there are special transition
    collars. These amount to apropriate-sized rubber collars, that use
    hose clamps for the two different pipes. Stop in at Summerville
    Lumber or Builder's Square, they both have a wide assortment of
    sizes of these collars.
    
    					Kenny

	When I installed a hopper in my father's upstairs washroom, I
	 managed to separate the iron pipes by drilling out the lead. In
	 this case, it was poured in over the oakum rope referred to
	 earlier. I had access to the entire joint, so drilling was the
	 most advantageous method, although it seemed to take forever.

	 Of course, this could only be accomplished if the joint were
	 totally accessible from either the top or bottom and has enough
	 room for the drill and bit.

	 Chris

    If you are going be rerplacing the cast iron with PVC to a joint
    just use a small sledge hammer and crack the iron pipe and remove
    it in pieces, wear goggles the cast iron shatters.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Paul

        Since you are making a transition to PVC you will have to
    cut off the hub end of the cast.  Your friendly (?) plumber
    or rental place should have a cast cutter.  Looks something
    like a chain wrench.

        I would be leary of the sledge hammer method.  Yes, cast
    will break, but it is not easy and the break will very likely
    not be straight.

        Any way you look at it cast is a pain to work with.


        Peter Duke

    You can also use a sawz-all with the appropriate blade to cut cast
    pipe. You need a little space around the pipe though.
    
       Bill
    

	Check out note 1176.10-* for more on CI-to-Plastic connections.

	--Mike

    I am a little late responding to this, however.  I have done quite
    a bit of work on the aforementioned topic.  I personally don't agree
    with any of the methods suggested except one.... Do go to your local
    rental center and get a soil pipe cutter. It is by far the smartest
    way to go.  I think they get about 20 bucks to rent one. Then find
    a convenient place to cut the soil pipe and rip it out. Then replace
    it with PVC and transition the PVC to the CI with the rubber transition
    couplings that someone mentioned.  They are now legal in Mass.
    
    PS. Depending on how much CI you need to remove...cut it in about
    2-3 foot lengths. It's very heavy and difficult to get out of tight
    spaces.
    

I've seen a lot of notes about how it is illegal to do your own plumbing
in Mass., but I don't recall ever seeing a definition of exactly what 
operations are illegal.  For example, is it illegal to replace your own
soil pipe?  Please no flames on either side of whether one should pay
attention to that law -- I just want to know what the law says, in
concrete terms like I can do A) but not B).  I have a rusting cast iron
soil pipe (and other plumbing problems), so this question is not just
idle curiosity.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    I think I can give an answer that's merely a small step towards the
    answer you want.  The answer is that only a licensed plumber can get a
    plumbing permit (or at least the plumber's name must be on the permit,
    in addition to the owner's).  I infer from this that you're allowed to
    do any plumbing that doesn't require a permit, and not allowed to do
    any that does.
    
       Gary

    In Mass, as far as I know, you are not allowed to do ANY work on
    a soil pipe unless you are a liscensed plumber.
    
    Chris D.

    I'd check at least two places:
    	1. Town Bldg Inspector - He'll know what the approval req'ts
    	   are.
    	2. Homeowners Ins. Co. - that is if you have any concern about
    	   invalidating coverage by unapproved work (in this case would
    	   only seem to relate to water damage).
    
    	Bill

    Thanks for all the advice. I decided to rent the soil pipe cutter from 
    Taylor Rental. Cost was $19.00 a day. I only had to make one cut but
    the cost of the tool was very worthwhile. It worked like a charm. No
    pain, no strain, and it cut a real clean line. GREAT suggestion!!! From
    that point the rest of the job was routine.
    
    Once again, thanks for the advice,
    Jack

    are we talking about fresh water or waste water?  It's gotta be the
    latter I figure, but ...  I would guess that the vent to your roof is
    plugged up, although that only explains problems when you use the
    upstairs fixtures, not the downstairs ones.
    
    

    Re. 1
    
    	It's fresh water not the waste water. I'll try to explain again.
    After you turn off the shower, or after either toilet finishes filling,
    you can still hear water running thru the piping system. If you
    turn a sink fawcet on and then off, the noise of the water flowing
    thru the piping stops. Real strange. I'll have to look at the vent
    on the roof as a start.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	Red

    
    
    Well lets give this a try ! First if this is a brandy new home you
    have one year to get the builder to fix anything that goes wrong.
    Its a state law from what I'm told here in MA. 
    
      I could possibly understand the running water being caused by
    the toilet because of the "FLAPPER" not coveing the whole in the
    tank properly. You'd hear water running then. 
    
      If you take a shower then turn the water off and get out do you
    hear water running right away ?
    
      It almost sounds like a water pressure problem of some time.
    
    
    Well I tried...
    

    This is a mystery, anyway here is my $.02.

    Taking only pieces of what you indicated, I would be inclined to
    check my toilet water tanks, for the "flapper" problem indicated
    before PLUS check for the water level in the tank when it is full.
    Looking into the top of the open tank, you will notice the open
    top of a (approx) 1 in. tube into which the end of a small flexible 
    tube is sitting. This 1 inch diameter tube is a safety device through
    which water will flow in to the bowl if the filler valve fails to
    shut off automatically. What sometimes happens is that the water
    level setting in the tank is too high causing the water level to
    reach the top of this "safety" tube and trickle continuously into
    the bowl; it will not be visible in the bowl because of the very
    low volume flowing. In some cases, the pressure on the automatic
    shut-off filler valve is just about, but not enough, to shut off
    the water coming into the tank; this combination of almost shut-off
    and the slow trickle of water into the bowl is continuous and will
    continue unless you have a sudden buildup of pressure such as you
     would create when you open and close a tap quickly.
    For reference, the level of water in the toilet wate tank should
    be about an inch below this overflow safety tube - check it out.
    
    The connection to the shower escapes me, unless the use of a large
    volume of water is sufficient to reduce the pressure in the system
    enough to kickoff the toilet on it leaky performance.
    
    I guess that was more than $.02.

Well, since I'm Red's wife maybe I can tell you how it all started. I first
noticed it one night when I flushed the toilet upstairs. After it finished
running, the one downstairs mysteriously started running. I didn't feel like
running downstairs in the middle of the night to rattle the thing so I
turned the water in the sink on and then shut it off. That worked. It
still works except now the upstairs toliet runs forever unless you pull
the big ball thingy up. But I just this second emptied the tank out a little
and it stopped so maybe it's the water level in there. 

Jenna

    I had a similiar problem in my last house and it turned out to be the
    valve assembly in the tank. I rapid change in pressure could get the
    valve to slowly leak or finally shut off. Considering that the cost of
    a new valve assembly is quite low (less than $8) and is easy to
    install, why not replace the noisy one.
    
    Eric

          
    Barre MA recently tore up the town putting in sewer lines.  The
    current requirements is that all property within the sewer range
    must be tied-in within 5 years.  
    
    The septic system in my house is at least 20 years old, therefore,
    I planned that if the system failed, I would tie in at that time,
    otherwise I'd wait the full 5 years.  
                                                      
    I have a question regarding what might happen should the system
    fail.  Is the area over the leach field permanently damaged when it fails?
    In other words, will repairs be required to my back yard even if
    the septic system is disabled after failure?  
    
    I'd like to wait as long as possible to tie-in, since I just bought
    the house and it's taxing my finances, however, I'd hate to run
    the risk of saving now, then paying in a major way later.  Any 
    suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    /Jeff 

    
      No the area over the leach field isn't dead. What happens is the
    leaching field basically plugs up. All the gap between the stone
    fills, and the ground can't absorb the runn off anymore. 
    
     Are you sure you want to tie in. I know people that are paying
    $250.00 a quarter for sewage $10000.00 to more a year. Whats the
    cost of a new leaching field ? I've always wondered. At least with
    the leaching field you know what your cost is going to be every
    two years. $60.00 to $100.oo for a cleaning. With the tie in the
    town has you. Thats how I felt about it when I lived in Haverhill
    and they raised it every year.
    
    
    
    

    Come on now.  Don't give the guy the wrong inpression.  When I lived
    in Lowell, I payed ~$35.00 a quarter and I lived there for 10 years,
    up until last year.  If they brong sewage to the house I'm at now,
    I'd hook up without a second thought.
    
    Chris D.

    
    re .10 - I'm not trying to give him the wrong impression. Its true
    I payed that. My mother-in-law in reading Ma payes almost $1100.00.
    I would guess that lowell gets a great rate because they have the
    waste treatment plant right there on the merrimack near christian
    hill. Just my .02.

Sewer rates are going up in Massachusetts.  I expect that 
they'll keep going up.  If my town (Boylston) were to put
in sewers in the denser part of town, it would cost $100
to $200 per month (I forget the exact number), in addition 
to the connection charges.  That would be for connecting
to an existing sewage treatment plant (Upper Blackstone,
in Worcester).  

Personally, I would never choose to exchange a private septic 
system that worked well for a sewer hookup -- and this from 
someone who thought (just one year ago) that no place was 
quite civilized unless there was town sewer.  If I had to
replace the leach field every 5 years, then I'd want to
go for town sewer.  But if it works, why buy yourself 
big and ever increasing charges for no benefit?  

If I were worried about saleabbility of my house (and I had
a choice about connecting to town sewer) I would market the
house as "private septic, town connection available" and
negotiate the town sewer connection as a condition of sale,
if that's what the buyer wanted.  Not everybody is as narrow
minded as I used to be about private septic.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Sewer rates are going up in *parts* of Massachusetts.  Presumably, non-MWRA
areas aren't affected by the Boston Harbor cleanup.  Of course, all sewer
rates tend to go up, just as costs of septic systems go up.

    Boy, I sure am glad that I don't have to pay your bills.  We have city
    sewer and it runs between $8-$13 a month.  Water is on same bill and
    the combined bill has *never* exceeded $20 a month. We have been there
    for almost 3 years.  That's for two adults who do laundry but no
    dishwasher.  This is in suburban Atlanta, Georgia.  In middle,
    Georgia, two hours south of Atlanta, rates were in the same ball park 3
    years ago. 
    
    Your sewer bill is higher than all my utilities combined for one
    month.  1200 sq. ft single story with no insulation in the walls
    and R-19 in attic.

    
    Barre borders on my town (Templeton, Mass), and I pay about $125/year
    for sewer.  I doubt that the charges in Barre will go as high as
    some of the previous notes suggest.
    

    Re .14
    
    Now you know why southerners go into shock when forced to relocate
    to New England.
    
    pbm
    

    Let's not give an unreal impression of Lowell.  First, THEY DOUBLED
    THEIR RATES JUST ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO OR SO.  Second, I pay about $200
    for a combined water and sewage bill for my duplex every 3 months.  The
    quote of $35 was VERY lucky.  I have never had a bill so low.  I agree
    that if I had a private system which was working fine that I would
    NEVER hook up to the town voluntarily.  My other house, which I live
    in, is located in Chelmsford.  Now here, I do have a private septic
    system and my water bill is only $30 every 6 months.  Now that I can
    live with.  But every time I read the Lowell bill and hear about the
    MAJOR ABUSES in the Lowell Water/Sewer department, I get very angry.
    
    Ed..
    

    FWIW, I pay about $45 a quarter ($180/year) in Boston.  Of course, rates
    are supposed to go way up in the next few years.

    My mother had the same problem in her new condo right after she
    moved in.  As previously stated, the problem is in the shut-off
    valve inside the toilet tank.  If you remove the three screws from
    the top of the shut off valve (after shutting off the water to the
    toilet), you can take the cover off the shut off valve.  Inside
    the valve you will see debris, which is usually solder which has
    dropped into the lines when they were soldered together by the 
    construction plumber.
    
    This solder prevents a tight seal against the o-ring when the float
    ball comes up.  Clean out the solder and you'll be back in business.
    Takes 10 minutes.
    
    Also, unscrew all your aerators from the sink faucets and check
    them for same.  The aerator is the very last portion of the faucet
    right where the water comes out.  It has a screen in it which can
    also become blocked.
    
    
    Jack

    Re. 7
    
    	You hit it right on the button. There was a small piece of solder
    in the shut-off valve. Everything is a-ok now. Thanks to all who
    inputted advise.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Red

    THINGY?

    	I have a slightly different problem.  The connection where the upstairs
    toilet connects to the stack seems to be leaking (not a lot just
    drips).  I can tell it's leaking by looking through the hole that's
    now in my downstairs bathroom ceiling.  What is the best way to repair 
    this joint?  Soon, sometime in the Spring, I'm going to be gutting the 
    downstairs bathroom and can then make any repairs necessary.  But, what
    do I do until then?

    	Also, since at that time I'm going to have the wall and ceiling
    open, with easy access to the stack and associated connections,
    does it make sense to convert to PVC.  Is there a real benefit?
    Once I'm done with the bathroom everything will be covered with
    new wallboard and paint.  I don't want to have to rip it out to
    fix future problems.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    If the leak is around the perimeter of the joint where the pipe
    connects to the Y, you may be able to fix it by tamping the lead
    in the joint tighter.  There is a special tool used for the
    purpose (whose name I forget) which you can probably pick up
    a plumbing supply shop for a reasonable (<$20) price.  The
    other choice would be to rip out the old lead and oakum and
    replace them.  Dealing with molten lead is NOT an amateur's
    field trip, though; big opportunity to really burn yourself,
    and you need a few special tools.  Try retamping first.

                                              
    Re .2
    
    I highly recommend replacing your cast iron to PVC when you
    gut the bathroom.  Iron can eventually rust and crack.  PVC
    is also less likely to clog because of it's smooth surface.
    A friend of mine had to replace a pipe that had cracked, 
    *after* having redone his bathroom.  You'll be really p.o.'d
    at yourself if it comes back to haunt you.
    

I've been searching under SEWAGE, PLUMBING, TREE&SHRUBS, etc but cannot
get enough information that applies.  I need advice!  

Our house was built 17 years ago.  We bought it 2 years ago, and have
had the sewage back up in the basement drain every few months.  We have a 
roto-router person come out every 4-6 months and that helps.  They usually
take out LOTS of tree roots.  They have felt what they think might be a
break in the line somewhere, out more than 40 feet.  The plat map of the house
say that plastic lines are being used, but the sewer folks don't believe it
because plastic doesn't break that way, so they say.  We do know that the
plat map is wrong about our house.  The diagram shows our garage on the 
wrong side.  At the time our house was built, they were converting from
clay/ceramic to plastic lines, so I don't know what the truth is, and we won't
be able to find out until they start digging.  I've been told by a friend 
that roots can get through clay relatively easily, and that if we have clay 
there isn't much we can do about this besides replacing with plastic.

We thought about taking out the elm trees in the front yard, but they tell us
that cottonwoods in our BACKYARD could be the problem, and we don't want to
get rid of these old, beautiful trees.

They say that if they are to fix this, it will cost $700 to dig things up
and replace them IF the problem happens before the sidewalk/street.  However,
we live on a kind of cul-de-sac, and apparently the city doesn't pay for
the problem until it reaches the main line which is on the actual street.
If the roto-router folks have to tear up the street, they say it will cost
us up to $2,000-3,000.

We don't want to pollute the environment with root killers (do they all 
pollute?)  We also want to be able to use our downstairs, which we cannot
trust right now to fix up until we know the sewer problem is gone for good.
What to do?

  (HELP!)          Carol

I would put my money on a break in the pipe.  Certainly root killers
aren't going to keep roots from growing back -- nothing but elimininating
all trees anywhere near the pipe, or fixing the leak, could do that.
And depending where your pipe is, it might be a neighbor's trees
contributing to the problem.

Could this be a problem that has been going on for many years?  It
could be that in some renovation at some point, or maybe even in the
original construction, that the pipes were damaged.  Depending how
deep the pipes are, it wouldn't necessarily take that big a truck
driving over them to break them.

If it were me, I think I'd go with exposing the pipes to see what's
going wrong, starting where they think the break is.  But then, my
experience is that builders can build really egregious faults into
a house and not worry about them, so long as they can cover them up.

A year after I moved into my last house, the neighbors behind us had their
basement toilet stop up.  It turned out that that fixture emptied through
a pipe through our yard, and the builder had dug up 24 feet of their 
sewage line while digging a garbage pit on our property.  But even so,
it took a whole year for the thing to become completely clogged.  This
was a clay pipe, by the way, and it had no further problems.  Not
all builders are so shoddy, but you know that someone who put your
garage on the wrong side wasn't doing a really careful job on your house.

	Luck,
	Larry

    Grit your teeth and dig it up.  Anything less will be temporary,
    at best.  My parents have had to dig up their sewer line twice
    in 33 years because of tree roots (there's a maple tree planted
    nearly on top of it!).  First time they found clay tile pipe, which 
    they replaced with cast iron.  Last time they found the roots had
    even infiltrated into the cast iron joints!  It's pretty amazing
    where tree roots can go.

Thank you both for responding.  I was hoping for a (cheaper) solution,
but it will at least put my DEC stock to good use.  :-}

          Carol

    Does the 40' estimate mean the break is on your property, or does that
    put it out into the street?  I'm curious 'cause I had a backup caused
    by roots from a tree on city property, and they had to pay for the
    damages and repairs.
    
    Chris D.

<    <<< Note 3650.4 by HYEND::C_DENOPOULOS "I have Chronic Lyripsychosis" >>>
<
<    Does the 40' estimate mean the break is on your property, or does that
<    put it out into the street?  I'm curious 'cause I had a backup caused
<    by roots from a tree on city property, and they had to pay for the
<    damages and repairs.
    
I don't know if it is on my property or in the street, but I've been told
that the city will only pay for the middle of the street, where the main line
goes, not the line that goes to the main line.  I'm on a half-cul-de-sac,
so there's a lot of line that I appear to be responsible for that is under
asphalt.  We're talking a real pain here.

A friend of mine is trying to get us just to use root killers, but we don't
want to damage the environment and we want a permanent solution so we can
put cabinets and carpet in our basement without worrying about them getting
sewage-soaked.

           Carol

    Check with the head of your DPW. And check with your neighbors. Some
    of them may have had the same problem and have some experience. Maybe
    someone is having the same problem now, and you could reduce repair
    cost by having both fixed at once.
                   I was told by the Maynard DPW that they would take care
    of everything right up to my house. They cut out the roots every couple
    years and said if they felt it necessary would even remove the tree in
    my yard(about 15" from the main).

    I have a similiar problem with my house.  My house is about 34 years
    old and the main drain pipe literally drops 100 feet almost straight
    down.  I called Roto-rooter who refused to run their hose through
    because they wouldn't be able to haul it back up. The cost of replacing
    the drain would be too high for me to even consider.  
    
    I went out and bought something called Roto, the cost was around
    $15 for a bucket.  I poured it down my drain according to the
    instructions and within a few hours I was all set. I don't know
    what the enviromental impact is but considering my alternatives
    I'm going to keep using it.
    
    Kevin

    THIS is a plumming ? i have looked thru the notes file but have not
    found anything that basically fits my problem. first of all i dont have
    a septic tank. the plumming basically goes to the city. about 1 month
    ago i had my line rotorouter come out and unclear my line. everything
    was fine or so i thought now when i flush the upstairs toilet my drain
    in the basement the one in the washroom has a terrible smell come thru
    it. is this normal or is there something i can do. it only occures
    when the upstairs toilet is flushed. other than that the plumming works
    fine. any suggestions would be helpful. my moderator if this has
    already been discussed please move it for me. thanks michael.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under
the topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that
your question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question
would be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since
nearly everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the
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own new note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111),
and you may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the
directory yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Bruce [Moderator]

    bruce i cant seem to get thru to you so i go this route. i looked at
    the note 683 and didnt feel it answered my question. i cant seem to
    reach you as far as oass::ramsey_b. thanks michael

    If there is another note on this, please move this; access is too slow
    from here.
    
    The main "soil pipe" in my basement is leaking a small amount at one of
    the joints in the pipe, which is plastic.  The pipe runs from the
    upstairs plumbing, past the washing machine's drain pipe, into the
    cement basement floor, and out to the sewer connection.  The leak is at
    the bottom joint, one joint below where the vertical pipe arm for the
    washing machine's drain connects.  It doesn't leak very much, but it
    and the floor under it get slightly damp after someone has been running
    a lot of water (like taking a shower).  There is no water on the pipe
    above that point, or elsewhere, so it appears that the joint leaks a
    little.  I think this has been going on for a while, but it is getting
    worse little by little.
    
    Apart from silly laws about what plumbing we can and can't fix
    ourselves as non-plumbing-licensed Massachusetts people who are
    reasonably handy with tools (and recently fixed up all the upstairs
    faucets ourselves), is there some way I can fix this, maybe by applying
    some kind of sealant to the suspect pipe joint?  Or do I have to shell
    out megabucks for a plumber?  (Because, if so, it won't get repaired
    any time soon unless it becomes a disaster, since money is pretty tight
    around our house these days.)
    
    /Charlotte

    Well you could try finding the point in the joint which is leaking.  If
    you can find a specific hole, you could inject PVC solvent using a
    syringe into the hole.  It would glue the hole shut.  
    
    If you cannot identify a specific hole, you could purchase a new joint
    and to union joints and a short length of the pipe.  Cut out the bad
    joint, glue/weld in a union, glue/weld in a piece of pipe to make up
    the difference of the cut out pipe, glue/weld the in the joint,
    glue/weld in a short piece of piece of pipe to make up for the cut out
    pipe, glue weld in a union to the existing run.   
    
    Basically cut out the old joint and replace with a new joint.  The
    problem becomes in order to cut out the old joint, you have to remove
    some of the pipe on either side of the joint.  You have to replace the
    removed pipe run and attach that to the rest of the run.  The pipe
    fitting to do that is a Union.  Basically a straight pipe fitting with
    female connectors on both ends.  PVC glue/weld and the pipe fittings
    should run you about $25-$40.  Should take you about 1 hour.
    
    It is a very easy fix for a home owner.  The laws of your state and
    your own judgement about obeying those laws is left to the reader.

    I took another look at it this morning, but everything was completely
    dry everywhere.  This is el-cheapo construction: the pipe goes straight
    up from the cement floor to the bottom of the toilet on the first
    floor, with the other pipes joining it in several places, so I am sure
    it gets flexed (most houses seem to have a diagonal pipe, which would
    have a bit of leeway if the house settles).  I'll have to check it out
    again after some time of heavy water use and see if I can spot the
    leaky area - it isn't leaking very much, obviously, but it isn't going
    to fix itself, either.  The area that was damp yesterday was the joint
    right above the clean-out access.
    
    I hope it can be fixed without replacing part of the pipe - I'd be
    inclined to let a plumber do that (assuming infinite $$$$); we had to
    replace a good deal of the plumbing for the bathroom sink to replace
    all the contractor-special junky pieces before we completely cured all
    the slow leaks there, earlier this year - that sink was out of commission
    for several days.  I am sure that the waste-water end of things was
    constructed in the same el-cheapo fashion.  (At least we put in good
    quality hookups and stuff, so it will be easier to fix in the future.)
    
    /Charlotte
    

Charlotte,

I believe that you may have too high a water pressure from the
city. We had a home in California that constantly needed
replacing washers, etc. We were advised to get a pressure
regulator and reduce the pressure from 110 PSI to about 70-90
PSI. We spent the $39 and the problems disapeared.

You can borrow a pressure gauge from most hardware stores
(usually require a deposite so that you return it).

cal

    Water pressure is usually only recorded for the SUPPLY side plumbing. 
    I came to the conclusion that the WASTE side of the plumbing was
    leaking.  If her WASTE water has a pressure of anything, then she is in
    very some very nasty problems because waste plumbing is not designed
    for pressure, only volume.

    	Does the leakage correlate with rainy weather?  I had a soil pipe
    leak that proved to be water entering at the roof penetration of the
    vent pipe and traveling down the stack. - Chris

    We have really LOW supply pressure - I live at the top of a hill.  It's
    OK so long as you only buy appliances that work off of the water level
    rather than how long it takes to fill it, and don't try to use a flow
    restrictor (I junked the one in the old kitchen faucet after the first
    time I discovered that it took more than ten minutes to fill a bucket
    there to wash the kitchen floor!).  I don't think the input pressure
    matters to the soil pipe much, unless there was something running that
    dumped the maximum amount of water directly down the drain - which you
    definitely can't do with MY shower.
    
    Yes, it WAS raining at the time, but the vent pipe is in a different
    area, not right over the main soil pipe, and the pipe that goes to it
    was dry.  I just finished last weekend sealing around all the various
    things that penetrate the roof - I started doing that every spring as a
    preventive measure after we had a couple of different leaks one winter
    when it wasn't possible to get up on the roof to do anything about
    them.  When the vent pipe had a leak around it, it made a spot on the
    ceiling over the basement stairs - great fun trying to repaint that one!
    (Eventually I taped a small brush to the end of a broom handle.)
    
    I didn't take a look this morning during the "shower rush" to see if
    there was any sign of moisture - too busy.  Like I said, it definitely
    won't fix itself, but I am hoping that it won't turn into an instant
    disaster on me, that I can fix it myself, and that I don't have to hire
    an expensive pro to do it.  It doesn't so far seem to be much of a
    problem, but I'd rather fix it before it becomes one.  But I can't fix
    it if ther eis no obvious problem when I'm watching, either.
    
    
    

    How waterproof is duct tape?
    
    Dick

RE: .0, .1, .6

	Since as you stated it is a slow leak of the waste side, no pressure.

	I would dry off the joint. You can use a hair dryer to really remove
	the moisture. Then use some PVC cement from the container and glob
	it over the joint (the container has it's own builtin aplicator).
	Wait for the glue to fully dry at least 1 hour (the cement doesn't
	work on wet joints) before testing it.


	Total cost ~ $2.00 for the cement.


				Bill

	You do not have to inject the glue into the joint....

    Silicone caulking will also work.  Spread liberally around the entire
    joint and smooth out the edges with your fingers.  
    
    Total cost ~ $4
    
    Steve

    
    Re: .0
    
    Charlotte,
    
    Try gooping it up with some of the PVC solvent glue.  You can get
    it in Spags, Aubuchon's Hardware and lots of other places.  Make 
    sure to clean it first (w/some PVC cleaner).  The glue comes with
    an applicator attached to the lid.  
    
    If you have to replace it it's really not that hard.  All you need is
    part's (cheap at Spags), glue, solvent, and a hacksaw (to cut into
    the pipe. It might not even smell too bad.  Plan it all out before
    you do anything.
    
    -tm
    

    I've got a problem with the waste pipe coming down from an upstairs
    bathroom.  The waste system is cast iron and there is a leak at the joint 
    where the pipe from the upstairs toilet ties into the main waste pipe.  
    The joint is visible from the downstairs bathroom through the hole in the 
    ceiling that I've made to assess the problem.  I really can't do permanent 
    repairs unless I make a much larger hole.  Since I'm going to be gutting 
    and remodeling the downstairs bathroom next summer anyway I really don't 
    want to start tearing things apart until then.  The leak appears to be
    at the bottom of the joint.  Are there any temporary measures I can
    take to stop the leak?  I'm thinking along the order of something I can
    push in the joint to seal it temporarily.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    If you have the space, you can try using one of the "irons" for
    tamping the lead caulking against the pipe (the iron is hammered
    to tighten the caulking against the cast iron pipe).  You may be
    able to make do with an old dull wood chisel if the iron won't
    fit.

    I thought of doing that but where the leak is is kind of rusted.  Not
    being too familiar with waste pipes I'm hesitant to play with it.  You
    know how you start a simple project like putting in an extra outlet and 
    next thing you know you're ripping out the wall?   That's what I'd like
    to avoid.  I have visions of tamping in the packing and having the whole 
    joint crack or making a drip into a stream.  How hard can you hit these 
    things?  Is that what's in there - lead caulking?  The only thing I'm 
    familair with is the oakum/molten lead seals that I used to watch my uncle 
    make when I was a kid.  Now I wish I paid more attention!   Can I buy 
    lead caulking at a plumbing supply house and tamp extra in the joint?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    They use to seal liquid metal, kinda of toothpaste consisticy (sp?) in a
    tube like toothpaste.  Squeeze some out, rub into the hole, allow to
    harden.  I haven't used or looked for any in about 15 years.  We used
    it to seal some metal gutters.  
    
    For a temporary seal, dry the leak and surrounding pipe and apply some
    chaulking.  When you do remodel, fix it the proper DIY way: attempt to
    fix one small problem and end up replacing the entire waste plumbing
    system in your house ;^)  When you do, use PVC, it is much easier to
    fix and work with.
    

    In a genova (PVC) plumbing manual I have it shows using a liquid
    sealant like a plastic resin instead of lead. They showed it connecting
    pvc to cast and I think repairing cast iron connections too. If it
    works for pvc to cast iron, I would think cast to cast would work...
    If you can get at it and clean the lead out, (use a chisel, shouldn't
    be too hard, relace some yokem stuff if needed and poor some of this
    resin in... I can look up the name of it if you'd like...
    Jean
    

    Jean,
    
    	Thanks for the suggestion but this is a horizontal connection so I
    really can't pour anything (or it just ends up on my feet).  I guess
    I'll either try the caulking as a temporary fix.
    
    George

    The caulking should work temporarily, not any pressure in there...
    
    If you want a more permanent fix or the caulk doesn't work good, 
    you can use the resin. What you do is put an extra yokem or rope
    arounf the outside and fill at the top where you leave a little 
    opening. That's how they pour the lead in...  You may have problems
    getting at the top of the pipe though... Some good caulk should be able
    to hadle it till you redue things though... I've fixed one just
    taping in the lead too, but it depends what shape it's in...
    
    Good luck
    Jean

    The oakum doesn't provide the runner for pouring the lead; there's
    a special metal gizzie that clamps around the pipe joint to do that.
    The oakum fills the bottom of the joint, then lead is poured over
    it and then calked with a calking iron.  
    In this situation, I'd try tapping down the lead a bit, probably
    with a flat-faced punch.
    
    If you want to try the resin business, first thing I expect would
    be to get the surfces really clean, which may be a problem.  Then
    you might be able to make up a runner of some sort from wood
    or maybe even plastic and duct tape to contain the resin when you
    pour it in.  Watch out for trapped air bubbles.  I think I'd try
    calking the lead and see what happens.

    Why not try to use just one of those clamps with the rubber material
    that you can tighten down with a screwdriver. Sort of like the radiator 
    hose on your car.
    
    You could put it on, fill it with caulk/oakum then tighten it up. It's
    a drain line so there wouldn't be any pressure.
    
    Steve

    Dartmouth Mass is going to be installing a sewer line on my mothers
    street.  She has 125' frontage, and they say it will cost her approx.
    $5000, and if they hit ledge it could double to $10000.  THis is only
    the cost of running the pipe in front of her house.  Hookup is not
    mandatory, but would cost an est. additional $5000.
    
    She has three payment options;
    
    1.  pay in full one time
    2.  pay over 20 years plus interest
    3.  pay later in full, when the house is sold, cost plus interest.
    
    She is opting for #3.  THey will place a municipal lien on her house.
    
    My question is, does $5000 to $10000 sound right for laying 125 feet
    of sever pipe?  SOunds like a lot to me.
    
    thanks, Mark.

 In Essex Jct, VT, my brother-in-law says they want $7.5K, for sewer. Not sure
 if this includes the hook-up to the house.  He has around 100' frontage.

 He's planning on not hooking up for that much money, and simply continuing
 to use his septic system.

 Are they giving you the choice of not hooking in?  I can't see how they
 could force you to tie in, if your septic is working fine.

I have to preface this with a note that I don't know the prices of this kind of 
work.  But to me, $5000 sounds like highway robbery (pun intended).  It would
seem that we could rent a backhoe, and buy the pipe for less than that.

By the way, what is the interest rate the town is using for the lien?  If it is
too high, it might be cheaper to take out a loan and pay that off, rather than
wait.  Just a thought.

re: .20

If there are problems with groundwater as a result of the combined effects
of the septic systems in the area, it is quite reasonable to require homeowners
to tie in to a sewer system, even though the individual septic systems are
working properly.  A properly working septic system still puts nitrates,
phosphates, and other contaminants into the groundwater.

Note .19 does say that hookup in that case is not mandatory.  I'm surprised 
that the hookup rates are that high.  Often they start out very low to 
encourage subscribers, and only go high after they become mandatory.  I believe
that Pepperell, MA only charged $50 for hookups until recently.

   Gary

    OK, here's some unsubstantiated rambling:
    
    I would challenge any plan that calls for paying a premium "if they
    hit ledge."  This is obviously a discriminatory practice - you're not
    telling them where to dig.
    
    pbm
    

    As far as I know, you can't rent a backhoe and do it yourself because
    the backhoe operator has to be bonded by the town.
    
    Chris D.

    The town of DERRY NH is installing sewer lines in a section of town and
    the cost to each owner is going to be $9500 per lot to run the pipe in
    the street. The tie-in is mandatory and is the responsibility of the
    lot owner and the estimated tie-in costs are going to run approx. 
    1000-1500. This town portion can be paid in full or can be paid over
    a 30 year period plus interest. Sewer cost are going out of sight 
    everywhere but $5000 sounds like a bargain.
    
    
    -Jim-

    I believe Pepperell got substantial (80-90%) federal bux to build and
    install a waste treatment system because the town had the foresight to
    pollute the heck out of the Nashua River.  ;-) ;-)
    In fact, I think they also got about 10% from the state.  This was
    about ten years ago, Groton has since been added to the system which
    was designed way oversized to accomodate town growth.  In fact, for the
    first few years of operation, the town had to buy sewage from other
    towns (trucked it in) for the plant to operate properly.
    
    Carl

    I'd like to thank everyone for all the replies, this is a great place
    for the exchange of information...
    
    So, I suppose $5000 is reasonable after hearing about Derry NH costs.
    I think it is just amazing that it costs that much (what grief)!
    I will pass the info on to my mother.  She seemed convinced that
    there was a potential of kickbacks taking place (between the contractor 
    and town), because of the high cost.  But I guess not.
    
    I live in Milford MA, and have town sewer which was already there when
    I bought the house.  My sewer tax has been somewhere around $166/year 
    if I recal correctly.
    
    Mark

Don't forget.  You are paying $5000 for the right to pay more each and every 
year for sewer (and eventually, if not already) for water.  This rate can and 
probably will continue to go up.  So, the town now has yet another hook in the 
paycheck.

Ed..


Also, the town does not have to charge only enough to support the service.  
Lowell not long ago doubled its rates to help pay for the schools.

    .26:
    
    They *paid* to truck in sewage??
    
    Dick

    None of the surrounding towns had town sewerage, so they couldn't pipe
    it in.  You can't just use stuff pumped from septic tanks, either.
    
    Carl

    .30:
    
    Well, I guess it's a good thing that no municipalities in the area have
    overloaded treatment plants, or pump sewage into the harbor...
    
    Dick

    Why pay to truck it away, when the harbor will do it for free
    (eventually)?  

    Now here's one for you.  Looking at this note, there seems to be some
    relation to road frontage and cost.   It's a non-issue for me since
    my town is not putting in public sewer (yet), but I have a corner lot.
    
    Would YOUR town expect you to pay for the installation on both streets
    or just the one your lot is "named" for?   Or the larger frontage of
    the two?   Or the sum of both?   
    
    The reason for this question is easy to understand.  At the first hint
    of public sewer in town, should I put my house up for sale?  I have 3
    times the "frontage" on two roads compared to my "non-corner" neighbors.

re: << Note 1022.33 
    
>    Would YOUR town expect you to pay for the installation on both streets
>    or just the one your lot is "named" for?   Or the larger frontage of
>    the two?   Or the sum of both?   
    
      If  the  sewer  is laid both along the front and along the side of
      your corner lot it would be my epectation that you'd pay based  on
      the total "frontage" on both streets. If the sewer is laid on only
      one of the two streets, then I'd exped you to pay for the frontage
      on that street.
      
      Note that I don't think this is "fair" in any way, shape or forme.
      But this is the way its most often done.

    re: .33
    
    When Nashua installed sewerage a while back, I believe that the rule
    was 'you pay for the longer of the two' if pipe was laid on both.

In the last year I bought a ten year old house, my first with a septic
tank.

At seemingly random intervals, I get a really nasty whiff of "sewer gas"
outside my house.  The septic tank has been pumped, but the odor keeps
returning.

I've done some sniffing around, and my best guess is that the smell is
coming from the plumbing Vent pipe that exists through the roof of the house.
The roof is VERY steeply pitched (it's a cape), and the house is surrounded
pretty closely with trees.  I've had a local plumber out to look at it
and he agrees with my conjecture.  He says he's seen one or two other houses
with this problem.... but has no other ideas.

Does my conjecture sound likely?  Possible?  Any ideas on how I might correct
the problem??  I've considered extending the Vent pipe several more feet off
the roof, so that any sewer gas can be blow free of the house by the wind.
Reasonable?

I'm a LOUSY plumber, so any help/ideas will be very much appreciated.

TIA,

Peter

    You are right and your idea is a good one.
    
    The smell is coming from the vent pipe.
    
    If you extend it the gas should be disbursed higher up and you should
    not smell it.  
    
    Paul

    I'll second that opinion. If you get the chance and can put a smoke
    source near the vent pipe on a day when the wind is right you might be
    surprised at how far down to the ground the wind might draw it. 
    
    My guess is that the smell is the worst when the wind is blowing on the
    opposite side of the house from where you get the smell. This effect
    would be most pronounced when the wind was hitting the house dead on
    because this would create the greatest "suction" behind the house.
    

    	And don't light any matches the next time you're on the roof!

    Time to resurrect this note...
    
    My wife noticed a sewage smell in the basement yesterday.  About the
    same time, I noticed the garbage disposal was backing up, and the
    toilet wasn't flushing.  After snaking the toilet, I came up with a
    metal cookie cutter that my kids threw in the toilet.  I went to the
    cellar to try to snake the cast iron pipe to make sure everything was
    clean.  Anyway, I found the screw-on cover (overhead), and tried to
    take it off to run the snake.  I couldn't move it.  I used a pipe
    wrench, huge channel locks, a quick rap with a hammer, and it wouldn't
    budge.  
    
    Is there any secret to getting this cast iron plug out of a cast iron
    pipe?  I don't want to use too much more force for fear of cracking the
    pipe.  Would heat work?  WD-40?  Any ideas would be appreciated.
    

    re .16
    
    About the only other things to try are: 
    
    	1) MUSCLES and a LARGE wrench.
    		
    	2) Heat the pipe outside the area of the threads with a torch, then
    	MUSCLES and a LARGE wrench.
    
    or call a plumber, if you are nervous, but he will do the above.  The
    advantage is that, if he breaks the pipe, he is already there to work
    on the fix.  If you break it yourself, you need to call in someone to
    fix your errors.
    
    	Luck

    I've seen a roto-router guy chisel out the plug, broke out the middle
    first and a piece of the edge and was able to turn the rest out...
    Then he replaced it with a new one... I think the new one had lead
    around the thread area...

I had a roto-rooter guy chisel out my plug.  He said that the pipe was cast
iron, and the plug was brass, so the plug can be removed without destroying
the pipe.  Like .18, he started near the middle and chiseled out to the
edge, and then it came right out.

The replacement plug was PVC.

    
    Please don't be insulted by this question...Are you turning it in the
    right direction? 
    
    Steve B.
    

    
    	When was the last time you had a bacteria treatment(Rid-X, ect...)
    
    	We had this problem in a new house for a few weeks after moving in. 
    A dose or two of the bacteria cleared it up.

RE: .0

 Chances are the septic tank gas buildup is burping up through either the 
bathroom sink or the tub via the standpipe network.

 It's probable that the standpipe is short enough that it is allowing 
the wind pressure to push the gas back down the pipe which makes it actually 
burp up through the trap in the sink or tub once it overcomes the standing 
water pressure in the trap. Once in a while ours will do this when it's really 
windy and once in a great while you'll actually be in the bathroom and hear 
the burp as it occurs.

 The guy I talked to about curing it said the best way to eliminate this is 
to extend the standpipe so it's higher than the ridge of the roof.

    Plugs ought to be all normal right-hand threaded, I would expect.
    
    I'd be cautious of applying heat.  If you don't heat the cast iron
    evenly, it may crack on you.
    
    The *LARGE* wrench ( + 3' pipe on the end of it) is probably your
    best bet.  Some penetrating oil wouldn't hurt; I wouldn't recommend
    WD40, particularly.  The best stuff I've found is called Tasgon, but
    it may be hard to find.  I got some mailorder quite a while ago.  
    (Warning - it STINKS!)
    
    If you do get the plug out, Teflon tape on the threads will make it
    easier to get out the next time.

    re: .4
    
    The guy who pumps the tank at my house recommends NOT USING rid-x or
    any such product.  Supposely it breaks everything down TOO FAR and
    forces smaller solid pieces through to the leaching field, and you
    don't want that.
    
    Or .. he could be looking to pump more often.
    
    Bob O.
    

RE: .6

 He's looking to pump more.

 I've been using a septic tank product for over 10 years without having to 
have the tank pumped and the leach field is still working real well. It stays 
warm enough that snow over it, the distribution box and tank itself melts.

    
    If the oil and wrench dosnt work, and your not sure about
    the hammer and chisel method.  Take a 1/8 drill bit and
    drill a line across the plug.  The use the chisel to follow
    the line.  It takes longer but much safer.
    
    JD

    You could also just pop the lowest toilet and snake from there.
    A wax seal is probably cheaper than a new plug anyway...
    

    I've removed a few of these.  I've found the easiest and sometimes
    the only way is to break out the old plug by chiseling/beating
    etc. the old one can very seldom be saved, so have a new one
    on hand. Its not a real big deal. Someone earlier suggested drilling
    holes in the cap to make it easier to break out. Do that if it helps
    but I've never bothered. The 4" cast iron soil pipe is pretty
    tough stuff.
    
    Good luck
    

    I had the same problem with a "smell" at my last house. The problem is
    "down drafts" caused by the house location.  One possible fix is to 
    extend the main vent pipe up higher. I used about three feet more.
    Worked for me.
    
    Marc H.

    
    	re.6 
    	That's funny, because the last time  had mine pumped, they added
    	bacteria. 

    RE:.6 & .9
    
    	About once a year I add a package of yeast just to make sure there
    is plenty of bacteria.
    
    Joe

    One other possibility is unused drains. If you have anything like a
    drain in a floor somewhere or a sink that is not used (or used very
    seldom) it is possible that the water in the trap has dried out. smelly
    gas can and usually will back up through there at the most inappropriate
    times. Either cap the or add water once in a while.

�    	About once a year I add a package of yeast just to make sure there
�    is plenty of bacteria.
    
    Yeast and bacteria are two completely different (non)animals that can
    compete with each other for existence.  I don't think adding yeast is
    doing a thing for you unless you are dropping a lot of fruit and grains
    into your septic system.

Thanks to one and all for the ideas so far.

Adding bacteria sounds like a really good idea.  The house was vacant for
a couple of years, and I wouldn't be surprised if all the 'critters' that
should live in a healthy septic tank aren't dead.

Since this is a low-cost and no effort solution, and it's going to be
windy and less than 20 degrees (f) this weekend, I think I'll try this
first.

If that doesn't work, then I'll extend the vent pipe to be higher than
the ridge of my roof.

Again, I truly appreciate the help.

Peter

>    Yeast and bacteria are two completely different (non)animals that can
>    compete with each other for existence.

For whatever this is worth, John Cornell of Cornell Home Inspection
recommended yeast.  Suprised me.  I use Rid-X, figure it's at least
"designed" for the purpose.

-Mike

    Does the pipe have any kind of cap on it?  If not, it might be worth
    trying a turbine or wind-vane draft deflector before you extend the pipe.
    
    C.
    
    
     

    
    RE: .15
    
    I've never seen any type of cap put on the stack.
    
    This might be another application where the dreaded air shredder is
    appropriate.  I hear shredded air is less likely to smell... 8-)
    

Nonsense.  When you shred smelly air, the finer particles cause it to smell
worse.  If you chop an onion into itty-bitty pieces, you cry more than if
you just quarter it -- it's the same principle.  Of course, real men don't cry
when they chop onions.  Actually, real men don't chop onions -- they leave
it to the little woman while they do manly DIY stuff.

    .17:
    
    Real men don't chop onions -- they take the flat of their butcher's
    cleaver and crush it in a single blow.  It is necessary, however, to be
    careful to keep the blade parallel to the block or board:  if it's at
    an angle, you're likely to spatter pulped onion all over the wall.
    
    
    I too have a question to go in here, more or less.  We've two baths,
    upstairs & downstairs, sharing the same stack.  When we flush the
    toilet downstairs, we (often, but not always) note that standard septic
    odor -- but haven't yet noticed this upstairs.  Does this sound like a
    problem with the stack, the seating of the particular toilet, or some
    other problem?
    
    Dick

    Oh No! the D-I-wiseguys!

    To explain the cap question.  Where a house is surrounded by trees, or
    on an accessible flat-pitch roof, it's a good idea to fit a vent cap or
    grating to prevent stuff from getting down the vent. On an open vent,
    any blockages will cause the gas to build up and blow back.  It occured
    to me that this might be the cause of the problem.  I've also seen
    stack vents with a 90 or 180 bend at the top and I assumed this was
    something to do with drafts. (don't most septic tank vents have a
    180deg bend?). In the absence of a definitive answer, wild speculation
    is surely valid.  My next suggestion was to look for a dead squirrel in
    the guttering. 
    
    There's a practical limit to extending plastic vent pipe to ABOVE roof
    level as suggested.  Given that the basenote says that it's a steeply
    pitched roof, The pipe could end up about 8' high.  Wind is going to
    put a lot of strain on the joint, or worse on the flashing - which will
    eventually cause a leak. You may have to strap the pipe to a support
    inside the attic and possibly add some braces outside.

    The yeast suggestion is valid.  Yeast works perfectly well in septic
    tanks to speed up the bacteriological process.  Aluminum sulphate and
    lime are the only other things you may need to add if you need to speed
    up precipitation.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
    PS:  Real men cut onions under running water - that way there's no smell
         at all. 
                   

    Our house is a fairly flat-pitched split entry with 3 separate
    vent stacks.  Our septic system is 10 years old, and works like
    a charm - never a problem, pumped every 3 years or so.  Since
    new, and even to today, a noticible septic odor is present
    near each vent pipe, particularly noticible on calm days.  When
    the wind blows, the odor seems to be gone.
    
    I believe I read a few years ago in this file something about
    the need to create an updraft for the vent pipe, and that
    the recommendation was to cut a round hole in the side of
    the pipe about 3-6 inches from the top, and the hole should
    be about 1/2 inch or so in diameter.  The idea, as I remember
    it, was that it would allow air to be taken in through the 
    hole from the outside of the pipe, and help create a better draft
    for the air to flow upwards instead of floating down.
    
    I've never tried this, and I can't really understand the explaination,
    but does it sound feasable, and has anyone ever tried it?  Extending
    my pipe higher than its current 2.5 feet seems risky given the
    high winds we frequently get.
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

    
    RE: .18
    
    It sounds like the toilet isn't seated on the wax ring properly.  An
    hour and a $.79 wax ring should fix it.  But when the Laws of Plumbing
    get applied (ie. Law 79 - Shutoff valve will do everything except
    shutoff), you'll probably need an afternoon and access to the plumbing
    supply house.
    

Re: .18, .21

It could also be that the level of the "water seal" (the water level in the
bowl after the flush completes) isn't high enough to prevent the gases
from entering the bowl.  There is an adjustment for this on most fill valves.

The way you set it is to hold the flapper open and let water trickle into
the bowl.  Watch how high the water level gets before it stops rising (because
it's now above the trap and is flowing down the other side of the trap.  This
is how high it should get after a flush.  Adjust the fill valve until
it gets there on a regular flush.

				Steve

	How can I find the plastic pipe leading from my house out to the well?

	The pipe is about 1 1/2", 4 - 5 feet down.  I know where it starts at
	the house, and its general direction.  I need to find the far end.

	Since it's plastic, an electronic finder, called an "M-scope" or 
	something, won't work.

	I figure I can attach a squeeler, like the ones in smoke alarms, to the
	pipe inside the house, and listen for it outside by pounding a metal 
	rod into the ground.

	Any other brilliant ideas?

	Regards, Robert.

RE: <<< Note 4610.0 by ASD::DIGRAZIA >>>
    
 Being as the water line was probably laid in as straight a line as possible 
simply run a string from where the pipe exits your foundation to the well head.

 If you have the type of well pipe casing with a cap on the top that is above 
ground level, the outlet to the house where the water line is attached should 
be about 5 or 6 feet below ground level on the side of the casing facing the 
house.

    HI BOB
    
    I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM THAT YOU HAVE OR CLOSE TO IT.
    MY WELL WAS UNDER THE GROUND AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE 
    IT WAS. SINCE MY PUMP WAS IN THE CELAR I HAD NO WIRES
    GOING OUT TO THE WELL. I WAS ABLE TO BORROW AT PIPE 
    LOCATOR FROM A FREIND THAT HIS CO. OWNED. I HAD TO 
    DISCONNECT ONE OF THE PIPES FROM THE PUMP AND RUN A 
    SNAKE DOWN IT TILL IT STOPED. I THEN CONNECTED THE
    SIGN BOX TO THE SNAKE AND THEN FOLLOWED THE PIPE
    OUT WITH THE METER.
    
    IF YOU HAVE POWER GOING OTU TO YOUR WELL YOU CAN TRACE IN OUT
    WITH A CABLE TRACER. THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT ONES. I DON'T
    KNOW WHERE YOU COULD GET ONE. YOU MAY WANT TO CHECK WITH A RENTAL
    STORE.
    
    BRUCE

Get a Dowser.

That's what Gas and Water companies do.

Or be a dowser.  

When I was digging ditches for the power company we used a contraption of 
two L-shaped rods with loose rubber tubing over the short side, one in each
hand.  We were looking for buried ground cables and we usually found them
by walking around with these wire things parallel and pointing forward.  When
they crossed, we'd dig, and there the ground cables were.

Northern Hydraulics sells these things unapologetically as wire and pipe 
finders, but there's no reason you couldn't make some in about ten minutes.

No guarantees on this.

      
    
    
    Unless your looking for plastic and PVC pipe ---- how about a metal
    detector????  And if you don't find your pipe maybe you'll find those 
    tools the kids left out last summer when they "fixed" their bikes.
    
    Radio shack and other places sell cheap ones for under $20.

re .5:

Read the base note.

    I have a question concerning the rights of property owners. The sewer
    and water district in my parents town want to run a town sewerage
    connection down my parents' street. They plan to charge each residence
    $ 15,000 (yes, that's fifteen thousand!). My parents cesspool works
    great and they have no intention of connecting. Nevertheless, they
    will still be required to pay the 15 grand. The street is residential
    for a short distance, 19 or so houses over a quarter mile stretch, and
    then it turns fairly rural.
    
    My dad has polled the residents of his street and many do not want the
    new sewer line. The entire water district gets to vote on the matter,
    with two-thirds majority needed to vote the measure down. There are
    three water commissioners and they each get to vote too! My folks are
    worried that this may pass and they really can't afford this charge.
    
    Questions: How can someone be forced to pay $ 15,000 for something they
    do not want or need? Doesn't this amount seem overly extravagant? It
    does not even include the cost of actually connecting! What recourse
    do my parents have if this sewer project is approved?
                                               
    BTW: My folks live in Leicester, MA.
    
    Note cross-posted in REAL_ESTATE notesfile.
    

	I can't speak to the legality of this, but When this happened to my
	wife's parents a number of years ago in CT, they mobilized the
	residents of the area to be affected. Getting nearly 100% of the
	people in that area to attend the meeting and vote against the
	project stands a good chance of success, since many residents ignore
	things like town meetings and sewer meetings.

	Roy

<    Questions: How can someone be forced to pay $ 15,000 for something they
<    do not want or need? Doesn't this amount seem overly extravagant? It
<    does not even include the cost of actually connecting! What recourse
<    do my parents have if this sewer project is approved?

   Yes they can.  It happens all the time.  By having access to public sewer,
the property value will increase (in theory anyway.) 

   Usually however there are some mechanisms in place such that they won't have
to pay the assessment until the property changes hands.

   $15,000 is very reasonable.

   Residents of Holden (near the WTAG transmitter) also had "no problems" with
their septic tanks - for about 20 years. Then many of the lots started having
problems. Raw sewage was running down the streets. What I'm saying is that
because they don't have problems today does not mean they won't have problems
in the future. 


Al

    If you're going to try and fight this, bear in mind that by Mass.
    law, if they put in sewers in one part of the town they are
    required to put them everywhere, not just where people request
    them.  The result is that the entire town gets to pay this
    betterment fee.  Also, having sewers opens up new parcels for
    development that could not be developed before; so if fellow
    residents want to control growth, don't put in sewers.
    
    Good luck.  Let us know how it works out.
    

<    If you're going to try and fight this, bear in mind that by Mass.
<    law, if they put in sewers in one part of the town they are
<    required to put them everywhere, not just where people request
<    them.  The result is that the entire town gets to pay this
<    ...

    How long has that law been in effect?

    If that is truly the case, then it will be well into the next century
before any community west of 495 gets another sewer pipe installed.  That has
got to be the dumbest law I've ever run across.  I might be able to buy it
county by county, but not state wide.  How do you determine the assessment? By
frontage?  If that's the case you'll be putting a major squeeze on every farmer,
and woodlot owner in the state.  It makes no sense at all, but what else would
you expect from Beacon Hill?


Al
out_of_MA_and_glad_of_it

    I'd like to know when this law went into effect, I live in Marlboro MA
    and sewer went by my house about 5 years ago.  The cost was very small
    because of government aid but I know that lots of areas in Marlboro
    had sewer long before I moved to Marlboro and I know that there are
    still quite a few areas that still do not have sewer available to them.
    
    We also did not have to pay anything except to hook up to the sewer,
    ( a private contractor), there is now a lien on our property that we
    pay about $8.00 per quarter against, I believe this is for something in 
    the area of 20 years or until the house is sold.
    
    We had no intention of hooking up to the sewer when it went down our
    street.  But within about 3 months, we had septic problems.  Perfect
    timing for us.
    
    Judie
    
    
    

	Another thing to look at in fighting this kind of thing is the
	reasons for the proposal. Sewers are often pushed by developers who
	want to open up new areas for subdivisions, or people who want to
	re-zone for other uses that require sewers. Your parents should look
	into the reasoning behind the installation of sewers, to see who is
	backing it and why.

	Also, the fact that others have had to pay very little because of
	government aid sparks a thought - look into the possibilities of
	other funding for the project. The town may not have done so, and
	may be taking the easiest (for them) way of getting the money - bill
	the residents.

	Roy

    The residents of my parents' street met last week with the
    local water district and voted down the proposed sewer project.
    It was a very close vote, though. My dad told me that the vote
    seemed to run along the lines of the age of the street residents.
    The older residents (60+) who had lived there a long time ALL
    voted no on the measure, while most of the new families on the 
    street voted for the sewer connect.
    
    The writing is on the wall. As older residents move out or pass
    away younger families will move in to take their place. Another
    such vote in a few short years will probably favor the new sewer
    line. My folks had planned on selling their house in two or three
    years. They now plan to put it on the market sometime next spring
    in order to avoid any added costs (15K this time, who knows how
    much next time).
    
    Thanks for all the comments and advice. 
    
    ~Dick Daigle 

    How about a topic on betterments...
    
    My mother had to pay about $5000 for a sewer line installed
    along the street in front of her house.  She has not tied into
    it but of course still had to pay for the betterment.
                 
    I suspect that the answer is "no" to the following question but
    it is worth asking...
    
    I was wondering if the $5000 might be tax deductable?
    
    Another tax question.  Are sewer usage fees charged by the town
    considered a tax and therefore deductable?  Again I suspect not.
    
    Thanks, Mark

> I was wondering if the $5000 might be tax deductable?

	I don't beieve it's deductable because it's considered
	an improvement so the $5,000 is added to the properties
	basis.

> Another tax question.  Are sewer usage fees charged by the town
> considered a tax and therefore deductable?  Again I suspect not.

	Not on personal properties, but if the property was
	or partialy was rental property then it would be
	(if property was 50% rental then 50% of fee would be
	deductable on schedule E).

In the past, I've seen that "betterment" fee spread across 11 years by
the city (Nashua, NH). The only gotcha came if you sold the property, in
which case the betterment fee came due immediately. 

    Yes she had the option of time payments, but there was an interest
    charge.  Do not recal the interest rate at this time.
    
    Never thought about adding the betterment charge to the cost basis
    of the house (for consideration when the house is sold).  Good idea.
    
    Mark

    
    Couldn't you fund it with a second mortgage?  Then, at least the interest
    would be tax-deductible and the additional payments on $5k would
    be only a few dollars per week.
    
    Colin

I have a 75 year old house which still has its original cesspool, with
a clay pipe line to a small D-box and no distribution from there.

After 75 years, it has finally failed, so it's replacement time, to a full
Mass. approved design, septic tank, leach field, gravel from wall to wall
(small yard)

Question:

	Is this considered maintenance or an improvement?  I consider it
	an improvement since I have added considerably to what was there
	originally, making a major upgrade in quality and code.

	How about landscaping.  If I add in terraces, walkways, planters, etc,
	(where before I only had grass) -- is this an improvement?


thanks



Bob

    Re: .5
    
    Ask your town officals first.
    
    Marc H.

Re: .5

	The "general" IRS rule is that any improvement having a useful
	life of more than 1 year you add to your basis.

	If the property is rental property you can also start depretiating
	the cost the month/year the improvement is placed in service.

	I suggest you pick up some IRS publications :-)

My wife and I are thinking of hooking up to the town sewer line. We have two
options. One is to run the line around the house a great distance to the main
sewer line and the other is to go under the basement slab a much shorter
distance. I'd prefer going under the house but I'm concerned about compromising
my otherwise dry basement by breaking up the floor all the way across the width
of the house. We have never had a wet basement in the five years that we've
owned the house. Is this a bad idea? What do they do when they get to the wall?
Do they actually go under the footing? Or do they drill a hole in it? 

Just full of questions today...

Steve B.

    not an expert, but first here....
    
    - I would think it would be cheaper to run the sewer line inside the
    basement, then exit via the appropriate path.
    
    - I would also think that the exit location, floor vs wall might be
    determined by the depth of the line in the street.  As they say sh** 
    flows down hill.  If the line is higher than your floor, you may have no
    choice but to go though the wall.
    
    	Dave.

Now that I think about it, they'd probably just go under the footing. The house
sits slightly higher than the street so it'll probably have plenty of pitch. I'm
more concerned about ripping up a ~12" wide strip of concrete floor in an
otherwise dry basement. 

Would this approach really be cheaper? With all the manual concrete work to be
done (cut 12" wide strip in concrete floor, dig trench by hand, lay pipe,
backfill by hand, patch floor) I would think it might be a wash or even more
expensive. Unfortunately, I don't have a walkout basement so this work will be
even more difficult. 

Steve B.

I think you want to go under.  

Yes its more labor intensive because much of the work needs to be done by 
hand but once you get through the concrete there should be easy digging 
(usually some type of sand) as the base.

I have seen this done in one home (south shore of MA) but don't know about the 
final outcome (water etc).  There was not a great deal of mess and the guys
knew what they were doing (they should, they were plumbers - well, pipe fitters
offically (I think)).

Did you consider the possibility that you may create water problems by going 
outside the foundation also?

Ask about getting a floor drain put in while they are under there!

bjm

    
    ...Around without a doubt is the only way. This way you don't mess with
    something (cellar) that's right and second, if the pipe needs repairs or
    access it will be available. I don't think you could even get anyone to
    bust up your cellar and take the chance of damaging the foundation.
    Talk to a GOOD contractor and see what he thinks.
    
    
    
                                         -around,around,around 

    
    My folks in CT live atop a hill. In order to connect to the sewer line
    they had a choice of:
    
    	1. Go through the basement, requiring cutting a "channel" through
    	   the slab.
    
    	2. Or going around the house, which required a lot more pipe and 
    	   long radius turns.
    
    The cost worked out to be slightly more to go around the house, all the
    contractors they contacted unanimously preferred going THROUGH the
    basement and tearing a channel through the slab.
    
    They decided on:
    
    
    
    	Continuing with their current septic system.
    
    								- Mac

A nit:  people are talking about a slab in the basement.  Aren't slabs and
basements mutually exclusive?  My understanding is that concrete basement
floors aren't structural, and they tend to be rather flimsy.

    I think that in this discussion, "slab" is refereing to the 4" to
    6" cement floor in the basement. Not a house built on a cement slab
    without a basement.

    I would also lean towards to going around the house. Especially if
    the current basement is dry.

    >I think that in this discussion, "slab" is refereing to the 4" to
    >6" cement floor in the basement. Not a house built on a cement slab
    >without a basement.
    
    Yup. I habitually refer to the basement floor as "the slab". 
    
    								- Mac

>    I went out and bought something called Roto, the cost was around
>    $15 for a bucket.
           
           I used something like that a little under year ago (supposed
           to use once-a-year... you mail in a card and they're supposed
           to mail you something in a year to remind you to give another
           treatment).  Well, the roots came back and Rooter-Man came out
           few days ago.  They said the shrubs above the sewer line are
           the culprit, and that root chemical stuff does not work.  I
           don't wanna get rid of shrubs (putting in PVC pipe would cause
           shrubs to be dug up, too :-).  Anyone else had success with
           this stuff?  (maybe it need more that once-a-year treatments?)
           Any other ideas?  Is there a way to seal the pipe w/o digging
           up?
           
           Steve

    I just moved into this house which is hooked up to the town sewer.  I
    am thinking of hooking up to the town water as well.  The problem is
    that nobody has any idea where the sewer line was put.  We see where it
    goes out toward front yard but we are not sure if it went straight to
    the street or what.
    
    What is the best way to find where the sewer line is?  I certinaly
    don't want the backhoe thingy hitting the sewer line.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Amin

Can anyone suggest what one should expect to pay for a sewer stub street
hookup?  It would involve going from the center of a 2 lane road to the
property line, approximately 30' of which about 18' is in the road itself.
Sewer line is about 8 feed down.
The road is a state road in Mass. so it involves state rules, using state
cops for traffic duty etc.  The road only needs a temporary patch since it
will be repaved this spring anyway.

Also what is the going rate to continue another 60' to the house.